Midfield Workhorses. A Love Hate Relationship

[super_pig]

Whilst I'm not in any way a massive fan of Hammond, can I point out that he went off when we were winning vs. Crewe. Ten minutes later, it was 2-2. The game changed notably when he went off though I cannot explain why!

that's easy.. Adkins made three quick substitutions and momentarily upset the balance of the team. next..

 

[super_pig]

No player from the premiership irrespective of age becomes a bad player overnight. I personally would sign Hammond and build a side around him, and perhaps find another person to boo.
And believe me they Will find someone else.

they do if their legs go. the player the fans will boo next is the one that is totally under-performing yet still being picked for the team.. the way to stop being booed is improve.. your 'premiership' reputation is worth fuck all down here.

 

[Finnieston]

they do if their legs go. the player the fans will boo next is the one that is totally under-performing yet still being picked for the team.. the way to stop being booed is improve.. your 'premiership' reputation is worth fuck all down here.

Cant see players wanting to come here can you..I certainly cant. . All the good one,s weve ever had have somehow miracoulasly left for pastures new. ...... United,s Premiership reputation isn't exactly great is it.Last time six years to get there ,and one to go down. Mid Table or Relegated that's about it. When was the last European trophy that we won . Wonder why. I think we are lucky that a past premiership player would think to come here irrespective of who it is...Ask Ian Holloway he spoke about it in his interviews. Frustrate United for ten mins and the unrest will start and your halfway there............... You can see it every match.

 

[super_pig]

I think we are lucky that a past premiership player would think to come here irrespective of who it is...Ask Ian Holloway he spoke about it in his interviews. Frustrate United for ten mins and the unrest will start and your halfway there............... You can see it every match.

most gobsmacking post. .ever. we are 'lucky' that some past it prem player would come here and steal a wage off us? Fuck Ian Holloway. unbelievable.
listen mate. NO DECENT PREMIERSHIP PLAYER WOULD WANT TO COME HERE AT THE MOMENT . WE ARE IN DIVISION ONE. HELLO??

 

[Finnieston]

NO DECENT PREMIERSHIP PLAYER WOULD WANT TO COME HERE AT THE MOMENT . WE ARE IN DIVISION ONE.
Totally agree.
But he is not a decent Premiership player........However I do think he would be a decent Div 1 player.
Just my opinion of course and a lot of others on here.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Thought I'd provide facts rather than opinion. I list below our own forum members' ratings of Hammond's last 10 matches ( most recent first) in a period when some say he has started to show his worth to the team:

4.64
5.15
2.92
6.12
2.15
5.78
6.42
6.83
4.00
3.97

Average: 4.8

Now I do realise that even our own fans can have a negative bias towards certain players, hard to believe but for example I always thought Collins suffered from that on the ratings. However, a Premier League footballer should be welcomed to the club with open arms, however, Hammond should be performing better than that surely to goodness. Whiteman would even and he's only started one game.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Thought I'd provide facts rather than opinion. I list below our own forum members' ratings of Hammond's last 10 matches ( most recent first) in a period when some say he has started to show his worth to the team:

4.64
5.15
2.92
6.12
2.15
5.78
6.42
6.83
4.00
3.97

Average: 4.8

Now I do realise that even our own fans can have a negative bias towards certain players, hard to believe but for example I always thought Collins suffered from that on the ratings. However, a Premier League footballer should be welcomed to the club with open arms, however, Hammond should be performing better than that surely to goodness. Whiteman would even and he's only started one game.

How are forum Player Ratings "facts rather than opinion"?

 

[Champagneblade]

They are not facts but they are at least weighted so less prone to individual poster bias.

It's reasonable to assume that a good game gets a good rating and vice versa if there are enough folk who vote.

There's a 6.83 in there so it's not as if he won't get credit for a good performance.

Overall you would expect a player dropping 2 divisions from his parent club to be closer to this as an average than as an outlier.

 

[Woodwardfan]

How are forum Player Ratings "facts rather than opinion"?

WHF. What's up wi'yer?

It's a fact that the ratings are as quoted unless I mucked 'em up. FGS. Let it go man.

 

[Sean Thornton]

WHF posted ten seconds of Sammon doing what he's paid to do as a fact that he was a good player.

A fact?

 

[Sean Thornton]

How are forum Player Ratings "facts rather than opinion"?

Ergo your opinions are exactly that, rather than the facts you like to portray them as.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

WHF. What's up wi'yer?

It's a fact that the ratings are as quoted unless I mucked 'em up. FGS. Let it go man.

Just can't agree with this at all.

Who knows what's happening - because this is one of a series of posts from an alternate reality.

Player Ratings are opinions with numbers attached. That doesn't make them a facts.

It's not a fact that Dean Hammond was rated a 4.26 against Oldham, or whatever it was. It's an average opinion.

Let's say he ran 9.85k then that'd be a fact. We had 33 crosses at Millwall. Another fact - apparently.

I saw Police Story again the other week and I'd give it a 9/10. I'd call that an opinion. Police Story isn't a 9/10 film. That's just my opinion of it.

 

[PeteBlade]

Just can't agree with this at all.

Who knows what's happening - because this is one of a series of posts from an alternate reality.

Possibly the most unintentionally ironic posts in the history of posts on this forum, if not its at least making the top 3!

I'd like to visit the alternate reality where Sammon does an excellent job based on 2 minute highlights from a 0-0 game against Blackpool...

 

[Sean Thornton]

Possibly the most unintentionally ironic posts in the history of posts on this forum, if not its at least making the top 3!

I'd like to visit the alternate reality where Sammon does an excellent job based on 2 minute highlights from a 0-0 game against Blackpool...

As generous as ever Peter. Two minutes? The video might have lasted two minutes........

 

[Bergen Blade]

I'm with Wombwell_Blade: I'm not sure what he does but when he's not there...

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

(Well it is Easter )

Did you notice a significant change in our defensive capability when he went off?

I thought it was a different game: they had been on the front foot but after he went off they were just getting through us at will. I remember at one point their keeper had the ball and it just seemed obvious they would play through us directly and get a shot on target - and that's exactly what happened.

3-2 with 6' added time I didn't think 3-4 was impossible. There were a couple of the senior pros holding it together.

Another really important asset as far as Adkins is concerned is his influence in training, in the dressing room which could really advance the careers of the young players - though of course he doesn't have to be on the pitch to do this. If Whiteman, Reed, DCL (fingers crossed) and the rest have a role model to follow it really could make their careers.

I'm undecided - but not dismissive.

W B Yeats considers Dean Hammond

Sorry, I've only just been able to have a look at the full game as BP didn't have a working video until today. I think Crewe's manager deserves credit for changing the game at half time. Switching to a 4-3-3 formation he forced our wingbacks to drop deeper, effectively playing as orthodox full backs when they had the ball. This left us with a midfield trio of Coutts, Hammond and Flynn and they just couldn't cover enough ground. Coutts is shocking from a defensive perspective, just perplexing at times, Hammond struggles when he's required to run around quickly. Flynn has very good work rate and stamina, but he can't do all the running alone.

Getting fresher legs in midfield was necessary, but it's a very big ask to throw a couple of youngsters on at a time when we were struggling so badly and expect them to stop Crewe's momentum and turn the game. Good to see the two of them play a big part in our winning goal though.

To be fair to the mentioned players I think we were good first half, Hammond was fine and Coutts did many good things on the ball. But it's worrying that a tactical tweak from a rather poor opposition team is all it takes to expose us so badly though.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Sorry, I've only just been able to have a look at the full game as BP didn't have a working video until today. I think Crewe's manager deserves credit for changing the game at half time. Switching to a 4-3-3 formation he forced our wingbacks to drop deeper, effectively playing as orthodox full backs when they had the ball. This left us with a midfield trio of Coutts, Hammond and Flynn and they just couldn't cover enough ground. Coutts is shocking from a defensive perspective, just perplexing at times, Hammond struggles when he's required to run around quickly. Flynn has very good work rate and stamina, but he can't do all the running alone.

Getting fresher legs in midfield was necessary, but it's a very big ask to throw a couple of youngsters on at a time when we were struggling so badly and expect them to stop Crewe's momentum and turn the game. Good to see the two of them play a big part in our winning goal though.

To be fair to the mentioned players I think we were good first half, Hammond was fine and Coutts did many good things on the ball. But it's worrying that a tactical tweak from a rather poor opposition team is all it takes to expose us so badly though.

Always worth reading

As well as I can make out from what he said after the match, I think Adkins view was that Crewe were taking a big chance with their 4-3-3: he wants us to press play higher*, keep 3-5-2 instead of dropping to 5-3-2, and that was what let them back in the game.

It's the second time I've heard him mention this 3-5-2 becoming 5-3-2 - I think Burton was the other.

*He mentioned Done in particular.

 

[Sheff de party]

Dean Hammond attracts many opinions on this site and in other media. Very few are complimentary.
The basic scenario put forward is that the manager picks this player every week, the player is useless, the manager defends his choice to the hilt therefore the manager is an idiot to be replaced.
The same was written / said about Michael Doyle. And Nick Montgomery, And Mikele Leigertwood. Similarly Bob Booker, Simon Webster, Paul Rogers, John Gannon, Charlie Hartfield.
Mick Speight’s every touch was booed in games during 1975-6 and, in my early days, harshest of all, I remember a cry of Get Off (Barry) Wagstaff, harsh because there were no substitutes in those days.
Eventually though the efforts of these players becomes recognised. Speight is now a Blades legend and the perceived wisdom is that Boxing Day wouldn’t have happened if he had stayed on. Booker is a cult figure. Recent posts re-evaluate the contribution of Doyle kindly and yesterday on the station platform, the inspiration for this post, I heard that what we are lacking is a Nick Montgomery.
I am not a superior fan. I too have / had my reservations about all these players. I even thought the late, great Trevor Hockey was crap at the time.
However, I am now giving consideration to the idea recently put forward by Nigel Adkins that we perhaps don’t fully appreciate the role of the midfield workhorse. Perhaps our memories are too full of the generational Hagan, Currie, Hodges and Brown.
History seems to suggest that Nigel has a point.

Good post.

But I've seen Monty and Doyle play far too often and they were both rubbish, though at their level Doyle less so.

If I'm paying to watch football, I'd far rather watch some skill and talent. The midfield workhorse undoubtedly has a role, but give me a lazy talented player having his day like Coutts or Baxter any day.

Or an all-action star like Michael Brown obviously.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Always worth reading

As well as I can make out from what he said after the match, I think Adkins view was that Crewe were taking a big chance with their 4-3-3: he wants us to press play higher*, keep 3-5-2 instead of dropping to 5-3-2, and that was what let them back in the game.

It's the second time I've heard him mention this 3-5-2 becoming 5-3-2 - I think Burton was the other.

*He mentioned Done in particular.

Yes Burton was very similar with their wingers occupying our wing backs.

You may expect us to be comfortable with a back three having one central striker to deal with, and our three midfielders against their three midfielders. But then the opposition send their full backs forward and suddenly we have our 3 vs 5 of theirs. Who's supposed to close down their full backs running forward? This is a real challenge especially when they pass it around quickly with runs into pockets of space; it can be very difficult for our trio trying to keep up. This takes tenacity, quick feet and tremendous work rate. Coutts and Hammond can't offer that and this means we drop deeper instead, just trying to keep them out.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Yes Burton was very similar with their wingers occupying our wing backs.

You may expect us to be comfortable with a back three having one central striker to deal with, and our three midfielders against their three midfielders. But then the opposition send their full backs forward and suddenly we have our 3 vs 5 of theirs. Who's supposed to close down their full backs running forward? This is a real challenge especially when they pass it around quickly with runs into pockets of space; it can be very difficult for our trio trying to keep up. This takes tenacity, quick feet and tremendous work rate. Coutts and Hammond can't offer that and this means we drop deeper instead, just trying to keep them out.

Could it be that Adkins is just tactically inept , naive , and has been outmanoeuvred by opposing managers on numerous occasions . Or is just the players .

UTB

 

[Sean Thornton]

Yes Burton was very similar with their wingers occupying our wing backs.

You may expect us to be comfortable with a back three having one central striker to deal with, and our three midfielders against their three midfielders. But then the opposition send their full backs forward and suddenly we have our 3 vs 5 of theirs. Who's supposed to close down their full backs running forward? This is a real challenge especially when they pass it around quickly with runs into pockets of space; it can be very difficult for our trio trying to keep up. This takes tenacity, quick feet and tremendous work rate. Coutts and Hammond can't offer that and this means we drop deeper instead, just trying to keep them out.

What about our wing backs covering the attacking full backs?

 

[Bergen Blade]

What about our wing backs covering the attacking full backs?

In both games the opposition played wide wingers, too wide for our right/left sided centre half to stick to them, meaning our full backs dropped deeper to mark them. Then their full backs could push forward often unopposed.

Like here:

 

[Bergen Blade]

Could it be that Adkins is just tactically inept , naive , and has been outmanoeuvred by opposing managers on numerous occasions . Or is just the players .

UTB

In both the mentioned games he made changes to our midfield, so I think he agreed that the chosen set up wasn't working. He does seem to return to the same line up though. Maybe he hopes the opposition won't be clever enough to expose us. Things did work pretty well against Oldham and first half vs Crewe, but we look vulnerable when the opposition manager figures us out.

 

[Sean Thornton]

In both games the opposition played wide wingers, too wide for our right/left sided centre half to stick to them, meaning our full backs dropped deeper to mark them. Then their full backs could push forward often unopposed.

Like here:

Not being awkward so then we are left with three in CM marking one/two players yet we concede plenty from a central area outside the penalty area. If this is all due to lack of pace why play Coutts AND Hammond?

 

[Bergen Blade]

Not being awkward so then we are left with three in CM marking one/two players yet we concede plenty from a central area outside the penalty area. If this is all due to lack of pace why play Coutts AND Hammond?

We are left with three central midfielders having to stop/close down their three central midfielders AND both their full backs. It's more about work rate/quick feet than actual pace.

I wouldn't play both either.

 

[wizadry]

In both games the opposition played wide wingers, too wide for our right/left sided centre half to stick to them, meaning our full backs dropped deeper to mark them. Then their full backs could push forward often unopposed.

Like here:

He must be doing drills in training to work on these sorts of things, that's the only way we'll learn if he's to continue with this formation which I don't think he will be for next season so we might have to grim and bear this happening while he is hopefully working towards what he wants to do for next season. You can only do so much with this batch of players, they don't have it mentally and physically some of them anyway to do the required job that Adkins might want them to do.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

I saw Police Story again the other week and I'd give it a 9/10. I'd call that an opinion. Police Story isn't a 9/10 film. That's just my opinion of it.

I'd rate it as a highly enjoyable 7/10.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Great performance by Drinkwater for England tonight. A year ago he was sat on the Leicester bench with Hammond.

Can we re-write history just a tweak?!!

Drinkwater can protect his back 4 and contributes much, much more.