The Scale of the Task

[Woodwardfan]

I think, as the season's progressed, we're quickly becoming aware of the scale of the task Adkins has on his hands.

When he took the job, he must have looked at the team on paper and thought he had some good players who he could easily tweak to go for promotion. Add the fact that we have wealthy owners who had committed and promised to invest in the team.

What he's found is a team in complete disarray behind the scenes. Older players who are bad influences. Young pros who are more concerned with drinking and looking good than actual football.

He came in and gave everyone a chance. You could argue that the coaching staff already at the club should have done more if a culture already existed at the club. Assuming they weren't part of the problem.

He had clearly been told that money would be made available but saw his attempts in summer and January frustrated. It looks as though he was lied to by the Board (or at least 'mispromised' if he was told by Jim). He's tried to massage the wage bill by shipping the odd player out but then struggled to bring people in. He looks to have lost patience and shipped all the troublemakers out that he possibly could. The only ones who have been successful at all have been McNulty (who's clearly a dickhead) and Dimao (but it's early days).

He's now down to a very bare bones squad and results have suffered. Some of us, including me, have questioned some of those outgoings which has left us threadbare in places but in order to get rid of a cancer you need to ensure you get all the tumour out.

There's clearly a large percentage of the squad he inherited at the start of the season who had a bad attitude, drinking culture and lacked discipline or professionalism. What kind of examples have the younger pros set for the U-18s with their shenanigans? And then there's Baxter...

As for those he's brought in:

Sammon clearly wasn't his choice
Billy has done well
Hammond has added little on the pitch but I'm guessing much of the rationale of loaning him was to try and address those problems behind the scenes.
Woolford was clearly signed as cheap cover for Murphy
Edgar has been mixed but I feel he was never one of his first choices but the desperate need for a CB forced his hand
Baptiste is obviously a quality player coming back from a bad injury. It was a gamble but again I think he's been restricted with the funds he's had to work with.

There's a lot of people calling for Adkins to be sacked but I think it's important to look at the scale of the task he's had on his hands and not just where we are in the table and the results.

Its fairly clear until we eradicate the rot within the club we'll never progress.

Reading this O.P. makes me wonder whether Clough maybe engineered his severance from United because he knew in his heart that he'd laid such poor foundations. I agree with the OP that our squad was in disarray with so many individuals who were not good enough and others who were also maybe even bad eggs. The squad had such imbalances in all areas and Clough will have known that better than anybody..

Creating a big dust up at a Board Meeting is not a difficult thing to engineer. It's turned out well for him too, though I suspect he will have had his eye on the Forest job rather than Burton. Financially he will be laughing all the way to the bank and the circumstances of his sacking will not have damaged his reputation too badly. From afar he was probably thought to be doing well as he cup runs did paper over the cracks and were special.

Just a thought which has only just occurred to me after all this time.

 

[nowtfancy]

Reading this O.P. makes me wonder whether Clough maybe engineered his severance from United because he knew in his heart that he'd laid such poor foundations. I agree with the OP that our squad was in disarray with so many individuals who were not good enough and others who were also maybe even bad eggs. The squad had such imbalances in all areas and Clough will have known that better than anybody..

Creating a big dust up at a Board Meeting is not a difficult thing to engineer. It's turned out well for him too, though I suspect he will have had his eye on the Forest job rather than Burton. Financially he will be laughing all the way to the bank and the circumstances of his sacking will not have damaged his reputation too badly. From afar he was probably thought to be doing well as he cup runs did paper over the cracks and were special.

Just a thought which has only just occurred to me after all this time.

I think it was 90% what you say and 50% that he was asked to sign a black player.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Reading this O.P. makes me wonder whether Clough maybe engineered his severance from United because he knew in his heart that he'd laid such poor foundations. I agree with the OP that our squad was in disarray with so many individuals who were not good enough and others who were also maybe even bad eggs. The squad had such imbalances in all areas and Clough will have known that better than anybody..

Creating a big dust up at a Board Meeting is not a difficult thing to engineer. It's turned out well for him too, though I suspect he will have had his eye on the Forest job rather than Burton. Financially he will be laughing all the way to the bank and the circumstances of his sacking will not have damaged his reputation too badly. From afar he was probably thought to be doing well as he cup runs did paper over the cracks and were special.

Just a thought which has only just occurred to me after all this time.

To me Clough is a bit like the saying goes - like father like son.

Clough had 100% belief in what he was doing , but did he look and treat people with contempt at that board meeting . Only those in attendance or in the inner sanctum of BDTBL , know the full story , even that will be clouded , and I am sure it was missed off the board meeting minutes. It's more like to me that McCabe flipped his lid , when he realised what Clough was actually asking for in financial terms , to build up a promotion winning side this season.

The laughable or annoying thing about all this ,is I think Clough would have succeeded this season with promotion ( whether he had found the error of his ways is debatable ), and sacking him cost us financially anyway , with no doubt Adkins wanting more money , but will finish up with a lot less , to build a team fully from scratch , in disarray, lacking total confidence , when under Clough the base was already in place.

The thing of bad players , no discipline , being unfit , - Clough may well have dealt with this better than Adkins.

Are we better off financially , league position , squad under Adkins or will be if the board and fans have patience - personally I doubt it , but what do I know as a fan.

UTB

 

[Bartleby]

we've gone backwards since Adkins arrived. he originally had the same players at his disposal as Clough who got us to the playoffs? players in
hammond .. old crock
baptiste.. crock
woolford.. old .. crap
sammon .. crap
edgar.. ok
billy.. good but didn't actually need a striker?

not good reading

don't agree about Baptiste being a crock, he put in a lot of appearances for Blackburn in his last full season before being unlucky and getting his leg broken. Thought he looked a cut above the rest of our defenders against Oldham and I hope he's back in the side soon.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

well he can't run very fast and is blowing out of his arse after ten minutes.. will that qualify?

I wouldn’t say so. It might make him a has been but not a crock.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I'd largely agree but this managerial caper is extremely complicated. There are a few managers who just 'click' with a club - Nigel Clough at Burton, Eddie Howe at Bournemouth, Darren Ferguson at Peterbrough who prove they're not the geniuses they're cracked up to be when they move elsewhere (NC at Derby and us, Howe at Burnley, Ferguson at Preston and now Doncaster) and fuck up big time. Nobody on earth thought that Ranieri would take relegation-favourites Leicester and probably win the PL. Did Pearson assemble the ingredients allowing Ranieri to be the chef? And possibly even more remarkable - Carvalhal at Swillsborough. 15 clubs in 18 years. There's some kind of chemistry that is undefinable or everybody would be doing it.

Which brings us to NA. A close look at his managerial career may suggest he's may not be the 'promotion specialist' some may think. It could be that Scunthorpe are Adkins' 'Burton' - a team he's comfortable at where the expectations aren't so high. He was at Iron from 2006-2010 and, yes, he did get them promoted to the Championship in 2007 but promptly got them relegated the following season before guiding them back up again in 2009. So hardly an unblemished start to his senior managerial career. Had Brian Laws - who fucked off to Wendy - laid the ground work? Surely Billy Sharp's 53 goals in 82 appearances skew Adkins' record at Scunny? (I seem to remember he had a shit-hot strike partner beside him, who's name escapes me.)

Moving to Southampton, his record is truly impressive. However - and I'm not seeking to decry NA's efforts - Saints had just moved into a brand-new stadium after years at The Dell shithole, had massive investment from the Liebherr family and an enviable conveyor-belt of young talent coming through the ranks.So why was he dismissed? Hard to say, but it's probably that Saints were ready for the next step up and thought Adkins had taken them as far as he could. An admirable attitude and one which I wished more clubs would take (us with Warnock in 2006 being a prime example).

Reading? Not entirely a disaster, but not good enough for a club seeking to return to the PL. The Blades? An unmitigated disaster so far and a record he shows no signs of improving on.

Finally, I'll have to do the stats.but 14 wins out of 37 league games and no significant Cup runs would make a 40% win perentage as shown in Wikipedia extremely unlikely, but I may be wrong.

So is Adkins 'lucky' or just 'misunderstood'? Someone once said that the definition of a good Chancellor of The Exchequer is one who knows when to get out. A football manager is probably the same and perhaps Adkins' time was the end of his stint at Southampton.

View attachment 16643

Think we got past at leased one opponent in every cup (2 in the FA cup I think) so yeah, 40% sounds about right overall.


I agree with what you say about some managers working at certain clubs but not others. But we need to look at why? Why has every manager struggled at this club for the last 10 years? Are they all bad managers? Are they all a bad fit? This is the first time in a long time we’ve gone out and got a manager who, on paper, was the best candidate for the job. It’ll probably be a long time before we do that again. Do we really want to chuck him on the scrapheap before giving him every opportunity to succeed?

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

You don't get kitted out for Mam Tor if you're climbing Everest.

 

[FriethBlade]

You don't get kitted out for Mam Tor if you're climbing Everest.

Hang on it can be bloody dangerous up mam tor, nearly been blown off that trig point a couple of times...and as for Brown Knoll, much easier to find the summit of Everest than negotiate the bogs over there.

So if climbing Mam Tor dress as if it's Everest...unless taking the easy route from the car park !

 

[grafikhaus]

Why has every manager struggled at this club for the last 10 years? Are they all bad managers? Are they all a bad fit? This is the first time in a long time we’ve gone out and got a manager who, on paper, was the best candidate for the job.

I think the 'on paper' bit could be highly relevant. It could well be that McCabe got a bit giddy with first Clough and then Adkins. He would have heard of them, you see. So they must be good. Trouble is, a quick glance at Wikpedia would have shown him that Clough left all his good work behind at Burton in 2008 and was average - to put it mildly - in nearly 5 years at Derby (P:233, W:78, D:54, L:101 Win %=33.5) Repeat, that's 101 defeats in 233 matches. Adkins, so far, hasn't plumbed those depths, but he's getting there.

This giddiness could have also been exhibited by the managers - a 'Fuck me, I've made it now' which prevented them from demanding clear guidelines about budget, sales of better players etc. at interview stage. This lack of clarity - by both parties - has probably contributed to years of increasingly bad performances and a managerial merry-go-round.

Whoever comes in next (and it could be very soon if we lose the Crewe Clasico), I'll refuse to get excited whether it's Wilder etc. or Billy No-mark from Tissington Town. It's a lottery. All I know is that we're due a bit of luck.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I think the 'on paper' bit could be highly relevant. It could well be that McCabe got a bit giddy with first Clough and then Adkins. He would have heard of them, you see. So they must be good. Trouble is, a quick glance at Wikpedia would have shown him that Clough left all his good work behind at Burton in 2008 and was average - to put it mildly - in nearly 5 years at Derby (P:233, W:78, D:54, L:101 Win %=33.5) Repeat, that's 101 defeats in 233 matches. Adkins, so far, hasn't plumbed those depths, but he's getting there.

This giddiness could have also been exhibited by the managers - a 'Fuck me, I've made it now' which prevented them from demanding clear guidelines about budget, sales of better players etc. at interview stage. This lack of clarity - by both parties - has probably contributed to years of increasingly bad performances and a managerial merry-go-round.

Whoever comes in next (and it could be very soon if we lose the Crewe Clasico), I'll refuse to get excited whether it's Wilder etc. or Billy No-mark from Tissington Town. It's a lottery. All I know is that we're due a bit of luck.

The way I see it is the only time we achieve anything is if we let a manager have a bit of time and let him use the proceeds of some wheeling and dealing to try to build something. Warnock tinkered for six years to turn us into a promotion team. Bassett couldn't halt the slide immediately. They got their own men in. Had a few duffers along the way that they then had to move on and replace and got there in the end. I hope Adkins gets the chance to do that. I would have also given Clough the chance to do that.

 

[The Crab]

The way I see it is the only time we achieve anything is if we let a manager have a bit of time and let him use the proceeds of some wheeling and dealing to try to build something. Warnock tinkered for six years to turn us into a promotion team. Bassett couldn't halt the slide immediately. They got their own men in. Had a few duffers along the way that they then had to move on and replace and got there in the end. I hope Adkins gets the chance to do that. I would have also given Clough the chance to do that.

All the signs seemed to point to Clough being given that chance, I have no idea what must have happened in that meeting but whatever it was changed things very quickly.

 

[BushBlade]

All the signs seemed to point to Clough being given that chance, I have no idea what must have happened in that meeting but whatever it was changed things very quickly.

Things changed very quickly with little thought about the stupidity of allowing a manager to sign lots of players, many of whom had played for him before and were joining us primarily to play for him, then sacking him.
How did they expect things to turn out?

 

[The Crab]

Things changed very quickly with little thought about the stupidity of allowing a manager to sign lots of players, many of whom had played for him before and were joining us primarily to play for him, then sacking him.
How did they expect things to turn out?

Bush I can't argue with that. I'm astounded as to how some of these people become successful businessmen when quite often they show about as much sound judgement as someone who thinks its going to end well when they put their head in a lions mouth then flick its bollocks with a towel.

 

[Blade82]

Bush I can't argue with that. I'm astounded as to how some of these people become successful businessmen when quite often they show about as much sound judgement as someone who thinks its going to end well when they put their head in a lions mouth then flick its bollocks with a towel.

Unfortunately you need a football brain to run a club as well as a business brain. Unfortunately we haven't had that on the board for a long time

 

[BushBlade]

Bush I can't argue with that. I'm astounded as to how some of these people become successful businessmen when quite often they show about as much sound judgement as someone who thinks its going to end well when they put their head in a lions mouth then flick its bollocks with a towel.

Just because you're good at one thing it doesn't make you good at everything. Running a property development company is very different to running a football club.

I have a theory based on meeting a large number of successful people (through my job). When you become successful, it's because you've made a lot of decisions that have turned out to be the correct ones. So you start to believe that whatever decision you make will be a good one and that whatever you think, is correct. You start to think you're infallible. And you're surrounded by people who depend on you for a living, who'll agree with you rather than risk falling out of favour.

 

[derryblade]

Things changed very quickly with little thought about the stupidity of allowing a manager to sign lots of players, many of whom had played for him before and were joining us primarily to play for him, then sacking him.
How did they expect things to turn out?

Let's hope we are not having the same discussion about Nigel 2 next year, two already on board and hoping to add another, let's hope the powers that be heed your words. Probably not but we can but hope.

 

[BushBlade]

Let's hope we are not having the same discussion about Nigel 2 next year, two already on board and hoping to add another, let's hope the powers that be heed your words. Probably not but we can but hope.

Yeah, no doubt this time next year I'll be saying 'give Wilder a chance, he's only been here two minutes, he's dropped Flynn and McEv, what more do you want him to do?'

 

[The Crab]

Just because you're good at one thing it doesn't make you good at everything. Running a property development company is very different to running a football club.

I have a theory based on meeting a large number of successful people (through my job). When you become successful, it's because you've made a lot of decisions that have turned out to be the correct ones. So you start to believe that whatever decision you make will be a good one and that whatever you think, is correct. You start to think you're infallible. And you're surrounded by people who depend on you for a living, who'll agree with you rather than risk falling out of favour.

I think thats fair comment. All I could say in regard to your first paragraph, if that was me I'd try to employ the best in the field who did know more about the football side.

 

[BushBlade]

I think thats fair comment. All I could say in regard to your first paragraph, if that was me I'd try to employ the best in the field who did know more about the football side.

No, just go with your piling sub-contractor, be reight.

 

[FriethBlade]

What

All the signs seemed to point to Clough being given that chance, I have no idea what must have happened in that meeting but whatever it was changed things very quickly.

What happened was Phipps told Nigel C the board wanted to see a more expansive style of football and Nigel C said whilstever I am manager I will play a style most suited to winning the game.

The upshot was he was dismissed and although many wanted to see him go we would certainly have been in a better position now if he'd stayed.

 

[Grappler]

What

What happened was Phipps told Nigel C the board wanted to see a more expansive style of football and Nigel C said whilstever I am manager I will play a style most suited to winning the game.

The upshot was he was dismissed and although many wanted to see him go we would certainly have been in a better position now if he'd stayed.

Do you know that for a fact? I heard a similar story, so always suspected it was true.

I heard that it was more heated than that, Clough was being quizzed on potential player targets and positions which needed changing or filling. He lost his rag and said something along the lines of "none of you know f**king anything about football", to which Kev Mc (being the footy genius), got into an argument with NC and neither would back down.

Anyway, none of us were there, and so we may never know, but it obviously all blew up that evening.

 

[Bladesman]

"We've got to grab the cow by the horns and pull together."

 

[robbiez666]

Just because you're good at one thing it doesn't make you good at everything. Running a property development company is very different to running a football club.

I have a theory based on meeting a large number of successful people (through my job). When you become successful, it's because you've made a lot of decisions that have turned out to be the correct ones. So you start to believe that whatever decision you make will be a good one and that whatever you think, is correct. You start to think you're infallible. And you're surrounded by people who depend on you for a living, who'll agree with you rather than risk falling out of favour.

This

The amount of bullshit which comes out of Kev's mouth about being football experts is laughable.

He's so self-confident he can't see the obvious.

I know vastly more than him about football but if I owned a football club I would not rely on my skills to make footballing decisions.

Such a penis.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Isn't Adkins a victim of circumstances not of his own making, but Clough's making? Adkins inherited a bloated squad and bloated it even more by signing 5 expensive ones in against one out. It took time to assess the squad and the reality was that Adkins didn't fancy too many of the bloated numbers he inherited. From then on it gets messy as he tries to shift numbers and costs out and yet no other clubs think our players are worth anywhere near their contracted wages, so even those who do go out on loan still cost us a fortune.

The Board? Victims of circumstances of Clough's making too, partly their own fault. They gave him great authority and autonomy to sort us out and he failed. Ever since last summer's fateful board meeting we have been left with a bloated crap squad on big money on contracts that don't go away for nothing; a number of our players also have past allegiance to Clough. Since our summer signings there have been weeks when we could have fielded two teams, all on good wages. Until progress was made with loan departures the strength ( apparent strength) of our bench was embarrassing.

Fans will criticise the Board for not sanctioning JTW purchases and loan signings additional to the expensive Baptiste and Hammond. They will wonder why there has been an apparent intention to make signings but no results. I venture to guess the signings will have been subject to material departures and it is those which have not been made to release budget. Now anybody can say we should sign another two/three quality players on top of what we have, but apart from Collins and Higdon there have only been loans outwards and our continuing wage bill still persists. If promotion could be guaranteed by spending big, short term money then the Board would do it like a shot but we all know that's not how it is.

I'm just Joe Soap like anybody else on here trying to fathom what's going on but surely it's too simplistic to say that Adkins is not being backed and the Board are strangling the club yet again. This club is losing money month in month out don't forget. I suggest Adkins fully understands his brief and the awful impasse he has got until he can shift real numbers out. Adkins wants a squad of sensible numbers and even after next summer he'll still have a few players on his books that he doesn't want and has to respect their contracts and the fact their wages can't be spent twice in effect.

The other complication for the Board is that our incumbent manager has been erratic and hugely disappointing this season too.

Hope that makes some sense but it's just guesswork like everybody else's above.

 

[Borbokisfreekick]

Isn't Adkins a victim of circumstances not of his own making, but Clough's making? Adkins inherited a bloated squad and bloated it even more by signing 5 expensive ones in against one out. It took time to assess the squad and the reality was that Adkins didn't fancy too many of the bloated numbers he inherited. From then on it gets messy as he tries to shift numbers and costs out and yet no other clubs think our players are worth anywhere near their contracted wages, so even those who do go out on loan still cost us a fortune.

The Board? Victims of circumstances of Clough's making too, partly their own fault. They gave him great authority and autonomy to sort us out and he failed. Ever since last summer's fateful board meeting we have been left with a bloated crap squad on big money on contracts that don't go away for nothing; a number of our players also have past allegiance to Clough. Since our summer signings there have been weeks when we could have fielded two teams, all on good wages. Until progress was made with loan departures the strength ( apparent strength) of our bench was embarrassing.

Fans will criticise the Board for not sanctioning JTW purchases and loan signings additional to the expensive Baptiste and Hammond. They will wonder why there has been an apparent intention to make signings but no results. I venture to guess the signings will have been subject to material departures and it is those which have not been made to release budget. Now anybody can say we should sign another two/three quality players on top of what we have, but apart from Collins and Higdon there have only been loans outwards and our continuing wage bill still persists. If promotion could be guaranteed by spending big, short term money then the Board would do it like a shot but we all know that's not how it is.

I'm just Joe Soap like anybody else on here trying to fathom what's going on but surely it's too simplistic to say that Adkins is not being backed and the Board are strangling the club yet again. This club is losing money month in month out don't forget. I suggest Adkins fully understands his brief and the awful impasse he has got until he can shift real numbers out. Adkins wants a squad of sensible numbers and even after next summer he'll still have a few players on his books that he doesn't want and has to respect their contracts and the fact their wages can't be spent twice in effect.

The other complication for the Board is that our incumbent manager has been erratic and hugely disappointing this season too.

Hope that makes some sense but it's just guesswork like everybody else's above.

Oh so it's all Cloughs fault....what a load of garbage

If your blaming Clough for the big squad, then that's the boards fault. They sanction the signings and contracts and should have kept tabs on in coming and out goings.

Also, to let so many players contracts expire in the same year was down to the board, and even people in charge prior to Clough.

And again, who's to know how Clough would have shaped the squad over the summer. I very much doubt it would have continued as the same size, he's clearly not stupid. Hence why he currently has Burton sitting pretty.

 

[Hague Blade]

Woodwardfan Thank you, that's a sensible posting.

But re-read your second sentence and the penultimate paragraph - Clough may have started the rot, but Adkins hasn't done enough to stop it, and if anything has made things slightly worse: he's shifted a number out on loan, but he's compounded the issue first by bringing in five of his own, of whom four are by common consent pretty poor additions to an already bloated squad, and second by managing very poorly this season - even you say "erratically" and others would be far more harsh.

I think he'll still be here next season, but I also agree he's been hugely disappointing, and it's far from being entirely a legacy of Clough's tenure. Adkins needs to get his head from up his arse pretty damn quick, or he won't survive his second season either.

 

[Borbokisfreekick]

Do you know that for a fact? I heard a similar story, so always suspected it was true.

I heard that it was more heated than that, Clough was being quizzed on potential player targets and positions which needed changing or filling. He lost his rag and said something along the lines of "none of you know f**king anything about football", to which Kev Mc (being the footy genius), got into an argument with NC and neither would back down.

Anyway, none of us were there, and so we may never know, but it obviously all blew up that evening.

Imagine that, Clough a man who literally grew up whilst sat in the dugout watching one of the greatest managers of all time win titles, he then went on to win trophies as a player with forest and play for his country. He then has Jim Phipps telling him to play a better style!! I'm not surprised Clough blew his top, must have been infuriating having Phipps try to talk to him about football and shows how amaturish our board is.

 

[Borbokisfreekick]

And add to that, just a year before Jim Phipps was telling everyone that he wanted Clough to be manager for the next 10-20 years!

I'm sure Phipps is a nice bloke but the sooner we get people like that off the board the better.

i hope in the fans forums coming up in the next year they can explain why they have so many people on the board, what they actually do and why they have so many people with almost no experience of working in football on the board.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

I don't particularly like Nigel Adkins or his methods. But the players who've decided they can't be arsed to play for him should not be allowed to win here. This bunch of wage stealers have effectively gone on strike and should not play for the club again.
Before we make a decision on Adkins, he should be afforded a little bit of dignity by giving him the satisfaction of getting rid of the wankers who've stabbed him in the back.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Didn't need a striker? Wow that's really clutching at straws just to have a dig at Adkins!!! We've been crying out for a 20+ goal a season man since you know who...

The majority are loan signings and it's always a risk to sign ones who are 1) not crocks or 2) who are going to actually give a shit when the going gets tough.

He's been left high and dry by the board. He's had no money to spend on perm signings, he's had to get rid of shit players and bad influences in the squad. With so many players heading for the exit they simply don't give a shit, promotion or not they know they're going, and he's struggled. But hopefully he gets to make signings in the summer to replace the dross accumulated by his predecessors and we have players who actually want to be here and fight for him, for us and ultimately for promotion to prove themselves in a higher division.

It's hard to defend I'll admit but we were the ones calling for him so let's look at the bigger picture and back him.

We've already got our 20+ goals man in Billy.
Just think how many more he'd have got if his fucking so called team mates would provided a bit of service or support for him?