Under 21s v Hull yesterday

[Tyler Durden]

I think his main position is CB, he's a big unit without checking

You're right, I said full-back by mistake!

 

[Balham]

Yeah. Problem is, they all look good in the u21s but are miles off when they step up, even to L1. I'd get him back out on loan at L2 level and see how he copes.

Has he featured much at Halifax? Just looked at the league table and noticed that they're in the shit at the moment.

I think his main position is CB, he's a big unit without checking

Banton is a centre half but he did play right-back for Halifax once...when they lost 7-0 at Grimsby. They've been on the end of some real hammerings; they lost 7-1 at home to Cheltenham as well. He's played a fair bit for them but they're really struggling defensively this season (45 goals conceded in 18 games: worse than us!!).

If he's back at Shirecliffe then I can't see any harm in getting him on the bench for the JPT game next week.

 

[BushBlade]

Banton is a centre half but he did play right-back for Halifax once...when they lost 7-0 at Grimsby. They've been on the end of some real hammerings; they lost 7-1 at home to Cheltenham as well. He's played a fair bit for them but they're really struggling defensively this season (45 goals conceded in 18 games: worse than us!!).

If he's back at Shirecliffe then I can't see any harm in getting him on the bench for the JPT game next week.

Yeah, I've been following their results. He's probably learnt a lot but it must be a bit soul destroying to have more than a couple of months. I bet he's quite glad to play against some soft kids for a change. Agree he should be on the bench for the JPT and the FA Cup too.

 

[DazBlade88]

Fuck me. Michael Owen was playing for England when he was 19. Get him out on loan at L2 level. If he's not good enough for L2 at 19, he's not likely to be good enough for a club with championship ambitions, ever.

The broken leg probably held his development by 6 motnhs but he's a decent lad. Surprised myself that he hasn't had a loan yet, though.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

I'm firmly of the opinion that if a player is any good he'll be able to cope with senior football in the lower leagues before he's 21.
The u21s is ok for kids but the senior 'development players' should either be pushing for a first team place or out on loan.

I don't believe the likes of De Girolamo, Dimaio, Khan will benefit from continuing to play in the U21s, nor will Hamilton or Banton now they've been playing in the 'National League'.

We are losing huge amounts of money every year and it's time we took a hard line with our youth development. It's not good business to be developing kids who might be good enough for the lower leagues in a couple of years, not least because we shouldn't be planning to be in the lower leagues in two seasons' time.

Interesting.

Once you leave the u18s you should be looking for a loan rather than an u21s game?

Maybe that's true of those who are likely to make it as a professional.

Perhaps the u21s is more about the real prospects keeping their eye in inbetween those loans?

They do need a less competitive arena for skills development as well, though I'm not convinced Morgs will smile fondly on pussyfooting around with the ball.

I think even Division 1 players have lower League loans didn't Harry Kane? In an ideal world DCL scoring regularly at Northampton means that he can step up to Division 2 next season.



UTMB

 

[BushBlade]

Interesting.

Once you leave the u18s you should be looking for a loan rather than an u21s game?

Maybe that's true of those who are likely to make it as a professional.

Perhaps the u21s is more about the real prospects keeping their eye in inbetween those loans?

They do need a less competitive arena for skills development as well, though I'm not convinced Morgs will smile fondly on pussyfooting around with the ball.

I think even Division 1 players have lower League loans didn't Harry Kane? In an ideal world DCL scoring regularly at Northampton means that he can step up to Division 2 next season.



UTMB

No, that isn't what I wrote. I said 'senior development players'. So no, not immediately they turn eighteen (unless they're outstanding - you can't put a precise age because kids develop physically at different rates) but I do question whether 21 year olds who can't get into a first team have much future in the game at all, never mind at our club.

There is obviously a balance between loaning players out, usually to clubs with a poorer standard of coaching than ours, and with the issues of not being able to monitor their behaviours and attitudes, and giving them real competitive football. Against mesters, something we've lost be scrapping the reserves (which I accept wasn't greatly competitive but more so than this kids' league).

I don't understand your last paragraph. Kane did go out on loan, possibly to a L1 club, but when he was a kid. He was good enough at that stage in his development to play at that level, and higher. So, our kids of the same age should be looking at being able to hold their own in this league by the time they have 'an adult's body'.
Similarly, DCL won't be 'stepping up' to L2. He's proving he's good enough now. I want to see him step up to L1, ideally before the end of the season.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

No, that isn't what I wrote. I said 'senior development players'. So no, not immediately they turn eighteen (unless they're outstanding - you can't put a precise age because kids develop physically at different rates) but I do question whether 21 year olds who can't get into a first team have much future in the game at all, never mind at our club.

There is obviously a balance between loaning players out, usually to clubs with a poorer standard of coaching than ours, and with the issues of not being able to monitor their behaviours and attitudes, and giving them real competitive football. Against mesters, something we've lost be scrapping the reserves (which I accept wasn't greatly competitive but more so than this kids' league).

I don't understand your last paragraph. Kane did go out on loan, possibly to a L1 club, but when he was a kid. He was good enough at that stage in his development to play at that level, and higher. So, our kids of the same age should be looking at being able to hold their own in this league by the time they have 'an adult's body'.
Similarly, DCL won't be 'stepping up' to L2. He's proving he's good enough now. I want to see him step up to L1, ideally before the end of the season.

I'm trying to understand how:

a) we use the u21 League
b) it's meant to be used
c) how you (and others) think it should be used better
d) whether there are alternatives

and from that come up with some picture of how it could work best for the club.

There seems to be a big gap between u21s and senior football. Loans are one way to bridge that gap but the whole system is far from perfect.

The point I was trying to make about Kane was that being on loan on a lower league doesn't mean that's the limit of your capability or your club's ambitions for you. Hence the point about DCL tearing up Division 2 next season.

(Edit: I go for the old fashioned way of counting and atm, to me, he's in Division 4.)

Apologies if this isn't a relevant response to what you wrote but my excuse is my phone.

UTMB

 

[BushBlade]

I'm trying to understand how:

a) we use the u21 League
b) it's meant to be used
c) how you (and others) think it should be used better
d) whether there are alternatives

and from that come up with some picture of how it could work best for the club.

There seems to be a big gap between u21s and senior football. Loans are one way to bridge that gap but the whole system is far from perfect.

The point I was trying to make about Kane was that being on loan on a lower league doesn't mean that's the limit of your capability or your club's ambitions for you. Hence the point about DCL tearing up Division 2 next season.

(Edit: I go for the old fashioned way of counting and atm, to me, he's in Division 4.)

Apologies if this isn't a relevant response to what you wrote but my excuse is my phone.

UTMB

The u21s league is supposed to be to develop players. It doesn't. It improves them to an extent but not enough that they are good enough to play first team football. In general. My view is supported by a lot of people in the game. It's been widely discussed, albeit more in the context of why there are lots of promising kids in PL academies but very few make it to full England level despite the u17s, 18s etc having plenty to choose from and doing quite well.

Therefore, my opinion is that as soon as a young player performs well on a consistent basis in the u21s league they need to either getting a taste of first team football with us in division three or being loaned out at a level no lower than Conference North/South, ideally National League or division 4. Preferably in the local area so we can keep an eye on them.

I don't believe they benefit from just playing in the u21s until they're 22.

I think the players who've been good enough at u21s level to have been given first team games with us should be out on loan and not continuing to play in the u21s.

I've no idea where you've got the idea that I think going on loan to a division 4 club means you will never play at a higher level. I don't and I don't know what I've written that could give you that impression.

I do think that there are only so many levels a player can step up though and in 99% of cases if you re only good enough for non-league when you're 21 you probably won't ever be good enough for the PL. The 1% being Vardy and the few exceptions.

I don't claim to have all the answers but I don't want to see players being lost to the game because the u21s doesn't prepare them properly.

 

[cooperblade]

The broken leg probably held his development by 6 motnhs but he's a decent lad. Surprised myself that he hasn't had a loan yet, though.

He has now - signed for Chester on loan.

 

[BushBlade]

He has now - signed for Chester on loan.

Good. Hope he does well.

 

[DazBlade88]

He has now - signed for Chester on loan.

That's twice in a few weeks that's happened when I've said that

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

I've no idea where you've got the idea that I think going on loan to a division 4 club means you will never play at a higher level. I don't and I don't know what I've written that could give you that impression.

Thanks for the overall response.

As to the point above - skim reading on my phone while doing other things - my bad - as the young people used to say 10 years ago.

 

[BushBlade]

Thanks for the overall response.

As to the point above - skim reading on my phone while doing other things - my bad - as the young people used to say 10 years ago.

I try to make my posts succinct so they're readable but sometimes in doing so I don't always get my point across well.