United 3 Doncaster 2 - report

[Pinchy]

See my post just after yours! (I'd started typing it before yours appeared, honest Guv).

You are right, though. The Brayford penalty incident might (I haven't seen a close-up replay) be characterised as fortunate. The other stuff so obviously isn't!

 

[LSF]

So we still wont make the play offs ?

Possibly?

 

[Woodwardfan]

Best ever report Deadbat, I agree with every word and every rating, now that is remarkable, who are you?!

I have some further personal points which add some hyperbole to your mature reporting and reflect my despondency last night.

During the shambles of the United performance, which admittedly had some good bits and so it should because we have assembled a squad of expensive players, I was picturing us turning up at Wembley v MKD in all likelihood, producing that and getting a right royal stuffing on the big pitch at Wembley.

We lack a team formation that makes sense plus a poor blend of midfielders - one can't run but can play, one can run but can't play, one can play very well but is played deep for some mysterious reason, the fourth is a nippy, hard working wide man who is as honest as the day's long but is not a confidence player, when he has confidence he is electric. Our best midfield player plays for England but can't get game time here these days and how we needed him in there last night. I think we played 4- 4.5- 1.5 most of the game and had huge gaps out wide midfield. This lad Holt in advanced midfield is taking up Baxter's ideal position, why on earth?

After the game Clough says he has two great strikers but struggles to accommodate them both in the team together. That resulted in him "sharing duties" with Davies on left midfield for most of the second half. I ask you, is that credible, another Jostein Flo perhaps. Yes he made a goal, so what?

4-4-2 is off limits for Nigel, more's the pity. 3-5-2 has probably not been thought of in Derbyshire yet.

Donny absolutely outworked and outfought us plus they were more "together" and played with pace and purpose. Throughout the second half we were a shambles with the manager and his assistant incessantly going balistic in the players' ears every hand and turn; It all adds to the panic and rarely do we ever see such outrage and dissent shown towards their own players on any opposition technical area. Footballing lessons should be taught on the training ground in reflective moments, not in the heat of the battle on the pitch. Most of it was about individual incidents not at all tactical.

How Holt and Coutts were not substituted only Clough knows. Why Doyle isn't playing is a mystery, his "rest" is longer than any potential suspension. Boy do we miss him. I fond it ironic when fans credit the manager for bringing Doyle on when he should have been first choice anyway.

Even when we pull everybody back we just cannot stop the opposition getting behind us. Another thought crossed my mind last night - were Donny on drugs or something!! - they were faster, stronger, keener and better. We played as though we had fully laden rucksacks on our back. We were fortunate Donny were unluckier too.

Play-Offs here we come Where did that Barnsley performance come from?

 

[Deadbat]

Tricky one isn't it. Right or wrong if a team hit woodwork say 7 or 8 times in a game there would be more reports that said they were unlucky / other team fortunate than probably bad finishing. I take your point but it is fine margins and the Done shot hit post and went in. They had one that hit post and came out. I do believe there is an element of luck to this alongside the player finishing/not finishing.

Maybe the phrase fortunate is not the right one in some respects. United were clinical. Doncaster were not. They had more of the ball and more chances and I still feel on another day shots that hit players/keepers could go in and stand by United had the run (penalty appeal) to some degree last night.

I came away more concerned for the end of season playoffs that we had got completely overrun and out footballed for long periods against a mid table side. If we played like that against an MK or Swindon in the playoffs and they had as many chances; we would go out I feel. Just my opinion.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Excellent game, excellent goals and an excellent result.

Pros for me were Done and Davies (the way Davies kept pulling the ball out of the sky from big boots forward was masterly) and Clough for shuffling well after injuries, something he's not been so hot at previously (Peterborough for examples).

The main con for me is that I thought that the midfield that started last night was very poor off the ball. Donny flooded through without resistance on a number of occasions and quite what Baxter was doing for the second I have no idea! Someone made the point that Doncaster only scored 'two worldies' but I submit that it's far easier to score a worldy when you're given a free shot from just outside the area, to take nothing away from Bennett's hit.

Another team might have scored some of those chances (Butler's free header, how was he free and how did he miss?). But as Pinchy is fond of saying, missing chances isn't really 'bad luck' so much as not doing what is required, IE scoring goals. We scored ours, they didn't. That said, the penalty shout was unlucky, I suppose.

If our set up regularly allows the opposition to create good chances, it indicates that there is something we ought to put right. While you can get away with it in one game, over time you will be punished. This has happened to us this season and explains why we are some way short of where we aim to be. Wins can sometimes mask the need for changes and tweaks.

 

[Pinchy]

If my Aunt Fanny had a pair of bollocks she'd be my Uncle George!

If hitting the woodwork is bad luck, missing it by inches (a screamer into the top corner for example) is necessarily good luck! It's not "tricky" at all; it's obvious.

 

[Bergen Blade]

If my Aunt Fanny had a pair of bollocks she'd be my Uncle George!

If hitting the woodwork is bad luck, missing it by inches (a screamer into the top corner for example) is necessarily good luck! It's not "tricky" at all; it's obvious.

This seems like nitpicking to me.

It's a relevant point if there's something in our set up and performance that may mean we could struggle in future games if we don't address it.

 

[Guesty]

If our set up regularly allows the opposition to create good chances, it indicates that there is something we ought to put right. While you can get away with it in one game, over time you will be punished. This has happened to us this season and explains why we are some way short of where we aim to be. Wins can sometimes mask the need for changes and tweaks.

See my last post in the Negative Manager thread, I've put very similar sentiments!

 

[HillmortonBlade]

If my Aunt Fanny had a pair of bollocks she'd be my Uncle George!

If hitting the woodwork is bad luck, missing it by inches (a screamer into the top corner for example) is necessarily good luck! It's not "tricky" at all; it's obvious.

Given the shots I take at HB Jnr when he's warming up in goal, I must be the most unlucky footballer in the world. Am loving this "lucky/unlucky" debate though.

 

[Grecian2000]

Which fans moaning? Seems to be just objective appraisal of the game, and you wanting to pick a fight in a lift.

UTB

Ahh, you've spotted it too.

As the founder and main sponsor of OFAC, any chance to have a go at anyone supporting the Blades is taken with such glee.

Back to the match, very enjoyable, which quite often means the ref was above average. Thought he was one of the better ones this season.

 

[ZoneManWilf]

Very much how I saw the game too.

I think you're a bit harsh on Holt, but unfortunately accurate on Baxter and Coutts who were both poor last night. honestly think there is a good player in Coutts, but he gives the ball away ridiculously often. Midfield was worryingly overrun a lot last night, and it seems Basham is the glue that makes us more solid in the centre of the park.

Freeman is fine at right back but was a liability last night at left back, we definitely need Harris back, along with Tel so we can push Basham back into midfield.

It was the sort of game promotion sides sometimes need during a season, I thought on the balance of play we were lucky to win, and Donny deserved more, but we had goals in the team which is a very nice thing to see at this stage of the season and they got us the win. A middling performance from most of the team, but when the front 2 play as well as they did it makes a big difference. Very impressed by Davies last night, he wins the ball well as a target man, uses it well and scored a fine goal. Done was magnificent, dangerous, worked incredibly hard and was very sharp in the box for his goal (and winning the penno). Deserved a 9 IMO

As for folks saying you shouldn't 'pick holes' after a win, then I disagree. We were lucky last night and the midfield and defensive deficiencies are worthy issues for us to discuss with some very important matches on the horizon. I enjoyed the match last night, came out buzzing despite the shredded nerves near the end and we're now probably just a couple of wins away from the playoffs. But supporting your team includes having an opinion on it, and it's easy to overreact to results. This works both ways too, there have been a lot of negative overreactions to defeats, but lets not allow a 3-2 win just mask some of the problems we had last night, especially with teams like Swindon on the horizon who would have taken even more advantage of our midfield last night,

What's encouraging is that this close to the playoffs we're scoring goals and looking dangerous which has been a problem a lot of this season. Done and Davies playing like that will give us a real chance in all games and maybe we can actually enter a playoffs with some forwards in form for once.

 

[Fiery Blade]

What some on here don't seem to realise that if our players could turn it on week in week out they wouldn't be playing third division football - they would be turning out for a top Championship side or even lower Premier League !
Yes, last night we were a tad fortunate to get three points against a Doncaster side that looked the best team to come to BDTBL this season - but they were just as unfortunate as we were against MK Dons and Barnsley at home when we had done enough to get six points and finished with none - thats football
I really enjoyed last nights game especially the fact that for once the players dug in and got a result when at other times they have meekly surrendered - there were some cracking goals, great saves, last ditch tackles, some horrendous defending and some fantastic moves - certainly worth the entrance money last night - something you can't usually say as you leave the ground !
UTB and keep believing - we can do it !!!

 

[sitwell]

Best ever report Deadbat, I agree with every word and every rating, now that is remarkable, who are you?!

I have some further personal points which add some hyperbole to your mature reporting and reflect my despondency last night.

During the shambles of the United performance, which admittedly had some good bits and so it should because we have assembled a squad of expensive players, I was picturing us turning up at Wembley v MKD in all likelihood, producing that and getting a right royal stuffing on the big pitch at Wembley.

We lack a team formation that makes sense plus a poor blend of midfielders - one can't run but can play, one can run but can't play, one can play very well but is played deep for some mysterious reason, the fourth is a nippy, hard working wide man who is as honest as the day's long but is not a confidence player, when he has confidence he is electric. Our best midfield player plays for England but can't get game time here these days and how we needed him in there last night. I think we played 4- 4.5- 1.5 most of the game and had huge gaps out wide midfield. This lad Holt in advanced midfield is taking up Baxter's ideal position, why on earth?

After the game Clough says he has two great strikers but struggles to accommodate them both in the team together. That resulted in him "sharing duties" with Davies on left midfield for most of the second half. I ask you, is that credible, another Jostein Flo perhaps. Yes he made a goal, so what?

4-4-2 is off limits for Nigel, more's the pity. 3-5-2 has probably not been thought of in Derbyshire yet.

Donny absolutely outworked and outfought us plus they were more "together" and played with pace and purpose. Throughout the second half we were a shambles with the manager and his assistant incessantly going balistic in the players' ears every hand and turn; It all adds to the panic and rarely do we ever see such outrage and dissent shown towards their own players on any opposition technical area. Footballing lessons should be taught on the training ground in reflective moments, not in the heat of the battle on the pitch. Most of it was about individual incidents not at all tactical.

How Holt and Coutts were not substituted only Clough knows. Why Doyle isn't playing is a mystery, his "rest" is longer than any potential suspension. Boy do we miss him. I fond it ironic when fans credit the manager for bringing Doyle on when he should have been first choice anyway.

Even when we pull everybody back we just cannot stop the opposition getting behind us. Another thought crossed my mind last night - were Donny on drugs or something!! - they were faster, stronger, keener and better. We played as though we had fully laden rucksacks on our back. We were fortunate Donny were unluckier too.

Play-Offs here we come Where did that Barnsley performance come from?

Doncaster had to dictate the play ,they had more to play for than us this was their last chance of anything this season. They played above themselves ,Ive spoke to a Donny fan who was there this morning. Reed would have been muscled out of midfield ,but besides the penalty Baxter gave us nothing ,at least Holt puts the work in. You don't make sense regarding the individual incidents ,of course the bench are going to go mental if players are not doing as they have been instructed.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

You are right, though. The Brayford penalty incident might (I haven't seen a close-up replay) be characterised as fortunate. The other stuff so obviously isn't!

But Baxter hit a great volley in the first half which seemed to strike their player on the arm in the box. The incidents seemed very similar - either you give both or you give neither.

Both the Baxter and Brayford incidents looked like certain penalties - but maybe they're not.

The fact that the ball hit clearly hit Brayford's/their defender's arm can get fans, managers, pundits, even the tea-lady all worked up but, aiui, the Laws allow for the ball to strike the arm or hand: it's only an infringment if it's done either deliberately or sneakily by putting your hands/arms in an unnatural position*.

It takes a strong ref to give neither and then point at the Laws of the Game. He might have been right.



*As posted yonks ago Colin Hendry used to do this very effectively (fly in to tackles with arms flailing as a second line of defence - exploiting the Laws as they stood at the time) when Blackburn Rovers won the title.

 

[grafikhaus]

During the shambles of the United performance, which admittedly had some good bits and so it should because we have assembled a squad of expensive players, I was picturing us turning up at Wembley v MKD in all likelihood, producing that and getting a right royal stuffing on the big pitch at Wembley.

We lack a team formation that makes sense plus a poor blend of midfielders - one can't run but can play, one can run but can't play, one can play very well but is played deep for some mysterious reason, the fourth is a nippy, hard working wide man who is as honest as the day's long but is not a confidence player, when he has confidence he is electric. Our best midfield player plays for England but can't get game time here these days and how we needed him in there last night. I think we played 4- 4.5- 1.5 most of the game and had huge gaps out wide midfield. This lad Holt in advanced midfield is taking up Baxter's ideal position, why on earth?

A lot of sense there Wwf. It's OK saying 'But we won' but I can see those chickens coming home to roost where we least want it.

Doncaster had to dictate the play, they had more to play for than us this was their last chance of anything this season.

Maybe you're right, sitwell. But I thought their overall display was a lot more than 'last throw of the dice'. From early in the game, they smelt blood and went for us. Some are citing Clough's introduction of Doyle as a tactical masterpiece. FFS, our midfield had been swamped and overrun for over an hour!

Back to your point, sitters. If Donny put in a 'shit or bust' performance, I'd be mighty pissed off if I was Dichov. Turn in generally patchy performances but manage to turn it on in big games. Imagine that.

 

[super_pig]

i'd have to t totally agree with dB's assesment, it is spot on.. i think most of us agree that we were 'lucky'.. people can nit pick over the term to their hearts content.. it's about time. i haven't seen us have so much good fortune for a while. i just hope that we haven't used it all up already!
not seen us play in a month or so (out of the country part time fan) and didn't recognise half the team at first.. my only bugbear with Nigel is that he puts too many square pegs in round holes. Playing the best full back in the league at centre back when you have one on the bench was bonkers.. and Done seemed to be on the wing until the second half.. the injuries actually forced him to change the team around to what it should have been in the first place..
i've been intrigued with all of this bitching about the new guys Coutts and Hoult and they didn't let anyone down did they? weird game though.. i've not seen us that overrun (even by prem teams) in a while.. yet we won.. what a crazy sport

 

[Fulwood Blade]

The fact that the ball hit clearly hit Brayford's/their defender's arm can get fans, managers, pundits, even the tea-lady all worked up but, aiui, the Laws allow for the ball to strike the arm or hand: it's only an infringment if it's done either deliberately or sneakily by putting your hands/arms in an unnatural position*.

It takes a strong ref to give neither and then point at the Laws of the Game. He might have been right.

you are indeed correct about handball being/not being deliberate and I find it strange that fans still question the refs on this. In a similar way some fans still do not get the offside rule.

It seemed a clear hand ball near the end, but it just makes me wonder whether "BALL TO HAND" just doesn't register in some fans vocabulary. The rules clearly allow the ball to strike the hand in the box and it not be a penalty.

What does amaze me more is that Premiership footballers nearly always "hide" their arms and hands behind their back when faced with a player with the ball in the box. Why we don't do it in this league is strange - seems a simple thing for our management to teach or perhaps the players are just too thick to learn.

We move on.

UTB

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Harry Maguire was sat behind us last night on the JSS, bet he wishes he was on the pitch.

I hope he tells Reed NOT to make the same mistake he made - and yes it would have been nice if he was on the pitch - we would/could/should have been 2nd not 5th if he had been.

UTB

 

[Woodwardfan]

you are indeed correct about handball being/not being deliberate and I find it strange that fans still question the refs on this. In a similar way some fans still do not get the offside rule.

It seemed a clear hand ball near the end, but it just makes me wonder whether "BALL TO HAND" just doesn't register in some fans vocabulary. The rules clearly allow the ball to strike the hand in the box and it not be a penalty.

What does amaze me more is that Premiership footballers nearly always "hide" their arms and hands behind their back when faced with a player with the ball in the box. Why we don't do it in this league is strange - seems a simple thing for our management to teach or perhaps the players are just too thick to learn.

We move on.

UTB

I think youll find in the rules or current referees' code the term " striking hand or arm which is in an unnatural position" constitutes handball these days, deliberate or not.

 

[cooperblade]

We don't have the option of a back 4 made up of players all playing in their 'proper' positions so I think it's important we have at least 3 and my preferred back 4 would be Freeman - Brayford - Kennedy - Harris. We looked, and were, a side who had made many far too many changes in defence last night. How many centre-back partnerships have we had this season?

Basham covers more ground then anyone, offers important height at set-pieces and is, for me, our most consistent performer. He has to start and I think that, now Brayford seems to be settling in a bit at centre-back, he should start in midfield. I'd have Coutts in there with him - he's a more complete player than Doyle and is improving as he finds his fitness. Scougall can carry the ball forward quickly, make good off the ball runs, close defenders down and, despite evidence to the contrary, I think he can bring goals.

Flynn and Murphy are nailed on for the wide spots and Steven Davies is the player we've been crying out for ever since we realised Higdon wouldn't cut it.

Howard
Freeman Brayford Kennedy Harris
Coutts
Flynn Basham Scougall Murphy
Davies

If we could put that side out in all 3 play-off games, I'd be confident. Can Kennedy play Thursday and Sunday though? I think the couple of differences in last night's line-up coupled with the effort put in on Saturday and a good Doncaster performance was enough to make us look ordinary and a bit fortunate to win.

Matt Done would be incredibly unlucky to not start but offers the chance for us to go 4-4-2 if we needed to be a bit less cautious at some point.

 

[super_pig]

>>Matt Done would be incredibly unlucky to not start but offers the chance for us to go 4-4-2 if we needed to be a bit less cautious at some point.
incredibly unlucky?? that is the understatement of the century.. he almost won the game single handedly.. that.. plus Dickov taking Coppinger off .. thanks Paul

 

[cooperblade]

>>Matt Done would be incredibly unlucky to not start but offers the chance for us to go 4-4-2 if we needed to be a bit less cautious at some point.
incredibly unlucky?? that is the understatement of the century.. he almost won the game single handedly.. that.. plus Dickov taking Coppinger off .. thanks Paul

But would you have him on the wing instead of Murphy or Flynn?

 

[Grappler]

I enjoyed the game, it was end to end stuff, and as we all have said, Donny Rovers looked a good side, well organised. They seemed so much faster and fitter than us, stronger in most areas and totally controlled the middle of the park. Yes they hit the woodwork, etc., but so have we in many games, where the ball just won't seem to go in, that's football. If players could always shoot the ball that vital few inches under the bar, or just inside the post, they would not be playing in division three.

You have to wonder what our season would have looked like if we had big Steven Davies and Matt Done from day one. Done has a work rate that is second to none, he was scaring their defenders on his own, with his relentless running and pace, and a couple of times, he was only a split-second from intercepting a pass from their back four and he would have been free on goal. As for big Steven Davies, he is exactly what we have been missing and what most other clubs have, a big strong and somewhat mobile front man, someone their defenders can't bully, someone who can go into a tackle with two of their back four and come out with the ball (O'Grady did this on loan for us as well), his assist for Matt Done and his own spectacular third goal left me wondering what might have been, had we secured his services sooner.

Midfield - ok we have all picked up on this. While Coutts did not have a good game, I have to hope that he is still not 100%, and the reason I say this is because when we played Preston at the lane, in the league, some Preston friends of ours came over, and when I told them we were after Coutts, they were gutted, saying they would have him back in an instant. Last night, having a post-match pint in our local, a Derby fan enquired how Coutts had played, and when we said not great, he was surprised and said something like "having a year out through injury will have affected him but he will come good, no Derby fans wanted to see him leave.

Holt - like his pace, and three goals in the last four games tells a story, but he was just pushed off the ball last night, and I guess one glaring thing was that Donny had no "Holt sized" players in the team. Bringing Doyle on calmed things down somewhat.

I think Nigel Clough must realise that the team he put out at the weekend at Barnsley is the team selection we need in the play offs, should we still be top six at the end of the season. Basham needs to be in midfield, because his surging runs at Barnsley took him into the box, not up to the half way line or just beyond. Davies and Done have to be on the pitch, as does Murphy, and Kennedy has to be in the back four (still my contender for player of the year, despite his lack of games, the kid gives 100%).

Finally, just to have a dig at the neighbours, two local-ish derbys, similar sized crowds, but which neutral armchair viewer would have preferred to see the turgid SWFC v Huddersfield game, when they could have watched a thriller at BDTBL like we all did last night?

 

[super_pig]

But would you have him on the wing instead of Murphy or Flynn?

no i'd have him down the middle.. he's on fire atm

 

[cooperblade]

They seemed so much faster and fitter than us, stronger in most areas and totally controlled the middle of the park.

I wonder how much difference the extra bit of rest they had (from playing Friday instead of Saturday) made?

 

[Grappler]

But would you have him on the wing instead of Murphy or Flynn?

Murphy on one side (must start when fit), Flynn or JCR on the other, Matt Done playing just behind Steven Davies?

 

[Grappler]

I wonder how much difference the extra bit of rest they had (from playing Friday instead of Saturday) made?

It's only one day pal, but seeing as none of us are pro players, it is hard to say, maybe it makes a difference?

 

[Cyprus Blade]

But would you have him on the wing instead of Murphy or Flynn?

I haven't had the chance to watch the game on BP yet - still waiting for it to be released - though I did listen to the game last night. From what I have seen of late it sounds to me that Done in the AM slot could well work (his tackling can't be worse than Baxter's and he puts more energy into a game than anyone. In addition his pace could well cause chaos for the opposition).

As regards the midfield Basham would strengthen it in my view but we are constantly hampered by the CH shortage.Listening on the radio is far from ideal but it seemed odd to me the way the defence was reshaped after Harris' injury - meaning only Basham was in his starting position. I was listening expecting it to be a like for like substitution - particularly as McEveley came to us primarily as a left back. From the commentary on the radio Donny seemed to go into the ascendency from that point while we sorted ourselves out - is that how it happened? It shows how important Kennedy has become - lets hope we can keep him fit.

Long term - regardless of the division we are in next season the CH positions has to be a priority.

Good win even if we didn't play great by all accounts.UTB

 

[Bladepicker]

From early in the game, they smelt blood and went for us. Some are citing Clough's introduction of Doyle as a tactical masterpiece. FFS, our midfield had been swamped and overrun for over an hour!

No it wasn't, we controlled the first 25 or so minutes. Only changed when Harris went off.

 

[Grappler]

I haven't had the chance to watch the game on BP yet - still waiting for it to be released - though I did listen to the game last night. From what I have seen of late it sounds to me that Done in the AM slot could well work (his tackling can't be worse than Baxter's and he puts more energy into a game than anyone. In addition his pace could well cause chaos for the opposition).

As regards the midfield Basham would strengthen it in my view but we are constantly hampered by the CH shortage.Listening on the radio is far from ideal but it seemed odd to me the way the defence was reshaped after Harris' injury - meaning only Basham was in his starting position. I was listening expecting it to be a like for like substitution - particularly as McEveley came to us primarily as a left back. From the commentary on the radio Donny seemed to go into the ascendency from that point while we sorted ourselves out - is that how it happened? It shows how important Kennedy has become - lets hope we can keep him fit.

Long term - regardless of the division we are in next season the CH positions has to be a priority.

Good win even if we didn't play great by all accounts.UTB

Yes I agree with that pal, we need a 6ft 3/6ft 4 bruiser alongside a (hopefully fit) Kennedy