Gone Elsewhere Luke James

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Watched MoTD last night and was reminded that spending big on a striker is often risky. Stephen Fletcher left Wolves 2 years ago after just 61 games (and 22 goals) and went to Sunderland for £12m. Signed a four-year contract (!) and has so far managed just 14 goals in 2 years.

A prime example of 'giddiness'.
 



grafikhaus said:
Watched MoTD last night and was reminded that spending big on a striker is often risky. Stephen Fletcher left Wolves 2 years ago after just 61 games (and 22 goals) and went to Sunderland for £12m. Signed a four-year contract (!) and has so far managed just 14 goals in 2 years.

A prime example of 'giddiness'.
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Good observation graf. Of course the cherry on the cake for giddy decision making has to be Fernando Torres. It wasn't so much the fact that Chelsea decided to buy Torres, but something went terribly wrong when he moved south. Whoever Chelsea bought it wasn't the guy that excelled at Liverpool, I wonder what each of his goals would have cost for the £50m Chelsea paid? Same applies to Shevchenko, one moment a class act, then a hollow impersonation of a once great player.
 
Whilst I agree generally about the level of fee's / calibre of players a Division 1 side is likely to be able to sustain let's face it, in Conor Coady we knew what we would be buying, how he would fit in etc - the parameters of doubt were much narrower than buying a totally new player. In my mind he was a realistic target and the risks to us were much more contained.

He was valued at £1m by Liverpool. Valued at that amount but by all accounts went for considerably less. There is a difference between valuations and the prices that get paid - how much did we value Maguire for and how much did we get? The quality of our negotiators comes into play I think.

What concerns me was we were put off by the original valuation to the point where we neither tested Liverpool's resolve or Coady's desire by putting in a bid (cheeky or otherwise) to buy him as far as I am aware (ok arguably we have a surfeit of midfielders but we knew he was coming to the end of his contract yonks before we bought the likes of Wallace etc). Towards the end of last season Coady was becoming more and more influential and starting to realise his potential. He's a young player who is likely to increase in value , not some over the hill guy whose days are numbered.

I do think Coady could have been got for a sum much less than £1m and was a realistic target . I believe he would have proved a major asset short and long term. Whether he would have come is another matter - the point being we were never at the races and in his case I think we should have been.
 
The problem with Coady is we have no idea of the conversations he had with Clough before he returned to Liverpool. I would find it hard to believe that Nigel didn't have some sort of chat about his future plans before he left and who knows Coady may have said whatever happened he wanted to play in the Championship not have another season down in this awful league. Huddersfield probably wouldn't have offered massive wages certainly against ours but we can't moan when a player wants to play at a higher level when we all (me included) moan at players putting money first

My version of events above maybe a million miles away from what happened but Cloughie surely sounded him out while he was still at the club
 
we keep being told that we can't afford this player/ that player (and always have to be fair) yet these players end up at the likes of Millwall, Birmingham and Bournemouth who live off attendances of half of ours. it simply doesn't add up and frankly never has.
 
super_pig said:
we keep being told that we can't afford this player/ that player (and always have to be fair) yet these players end up at the likes of Millwall, Birmingham and Bournemouth who live off attendances of half of ours. it simply doesn't add up and frankly never has.
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who? Who have we said we couldn't afford. There is a difference between couldn't afford and refuse to pay over the odds for but I don't recall us explicitly saying we couldnt afford anyone?
 
S5Blade said:
who? Who have we said we couldn't afford. There is a difference between couldn't afford and refuse to pay over the odds for but I don't recall us explicitly saying we couldnt afford anyone?
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refuse to pay over the odds for == can't afford
i'm not a knocker but i'm above average for numeracy skills
every year we sell our best player and rake in a couple of million. last year we had a cup run to the semi final at wembley no less. we get the highest attendances in the division by a mile. in fact we get more fans than many championship outfits with all the revenue creation opportunities that provides.
yet.. we still lose players to the likes of the teams that i mentioned and it simply doesn't add up IMO
 
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grafikhaus said:
20 goals in 114 appearances, so a mere £2.5m a goal!

I've always been convinced that he never recovered from this:

​
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I doubt I'm sufficiently able when it comes to figures to work out what that type of return would mean to a club unless they had an Abramovich or his like able to absorb this type of loss. Of course this is at one end of the spectrum, but even down in the lower end of of the league figures like £250,000 (possibly far less) can mean the difference between survival and extinction. Yet without a set of accounts to peruse I hear the constant moan that we should be seeking to spend, spend, spend! As has been made clear by several other posters, there is no such thing as a free signing. Plus we have the reality of being in this division to contend with, and again, it's been made clear by others that no forward of genuine quality would choose to come to a club in this division. The Championship is a far different proposition though, and if a club is doing well and has genuine prospects of achieving promotion then attracting a forward who might make a difference is far easier to attract.........

Just seen super_pig's post above, who knows why or how they manage to achieve this, but has it occurred to you that their approach to managing their finances might be guided by a gambling instinct (for that read Russian roulette) rather than the necessary financial husbandry that far too few clubs have employed in years gone by? The equation of attendance income, plus other legitimate forms of income has no place in the world of those who wish to gamble recklessly with a club's future. There are numerous ways to massage figures, let alone take chances that many clubs just wouldn't consider, to give yourself a leg up that is neither fair or legitimate. Maybe it might be worth suggesting to those who sanction such moves whether they'd be prepared to turn a blind eye for a few season's to how we make such moves possible, all in the hope, of course, of possibly achieving success. In effect taking from Peter to pay Paul, or, more bluntly, using this month's rent money to gamble on the 3.30 at Kempton as it's a dead cert to come in first.

It's another of these opinions formed from a distance without knowing what can or cannot be afforded, let alone understanding what deals have been explored and how viable they might be. Unless evidence can be presented that proves otherwise, I think I'll wait and see how these big money purchase contribute to the fortunes of the clubs who have been willing to essentially re-mortgage their property.
 
aah.. now i understand.. we just wait for everyone else to go bust then and win by default.. interesting strategy..
hold on though.. how come we are still more in debt than all the others.. if you save a bit here and there then you'd think that the overall debt would come down a bit and all these others with 'poor husbandry' would have more debt than before..
i'm missing something aren't i??
 
super_pig said:
aah.. now i understand.. we just wait for everyone else to go bust then and win by default.. interesting strategy..
hold on though.. how come we are still more in debt than all the others.. if you save a bit here and there then you'd think that the overall debt would come down a bit and all these others with 'poor husbandry' would have more debt than before..
i'm missing something aren't i??
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debt was written off when the prince came on board so I would say so yes
 
super_pig said:
aah.. now i understand.. we just wait for everyone else to go bust then and win by default.. interesting strategy..
hold on though.. how come we are still more in debt than all the others.. if you save a bit here and there then you'd think that the overall debt would come down a bit and all these others with 'poor husbandry' would have more debt than before..
i'm missing something aren't i??
Click to expand...

Breaking News! One of our Chairmen, the one who's been here for ages, wrote off the debt owed to him, thus giving the club the chance to begin life on a comparatively new page, hadn't you heard?
 



itsinyerblood said:
Breaking News! One of our Chairmen, the one who's been here for ages, wrote off the debt owed to him, thus giving the club the chance to begin life on a comparatively new page, hadn't you heard?
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All the more reason then that our other Chairman should put a bit of money in and show that he means business. The fans have done their bit with STs and two excellent attendances.
 
Deano said:
The vast majority of clubs who have achieved promotion in recent seasons - from all 3 divisions - have done so after meaningful investment in the playing squad. Follow your approach and we'll be in Div 3 for years.
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What approach are you talking about? The one where, in an earlier post, I suggested the ante should be well and truly upped when we're promoted to the Championship? As has been discussed countless times before, the type of forward that has been suggested would be unlikely to drop to this division. Your point about those teams who have been promoted may well have invested at a time they felt was appropriate, say in the Championship, but as for achieving promotion from all three divisions, what figures are you suggesting were invested by the un-named teams you mention? For example, can you name one of these teams and how much they invested in Div 1 in the last three seasons?
 
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itsinyerblood said:
Breaking News! One of our Chairmen, the one who's been here for ages, wrote off the debt owed to him, thus giving the club the chance to begin life on a comparatively new page, hadn't you heard?
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yeah i heard. the post has a hint of sarcasm thrown in
i think that it is fair to speculate (without having the exact figures to hand) that bournemouth, wolves and brentford invested heavily in the last couple of years..
 
super_pig said:
yeah i heard. the post has a hint of sarcasm thrown in
i think that it is fair to speculate (without having the exact figures to hand) that bournemouth, wolves and brentford invested heavily in the last couple of years..
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Sarcasm? I don't think so. You did declare that we are in debt, when it's been well publicised that this is no longer the case. I can't move the tea leaves around and know how things will be in future, but for now it seems we're not lumbered with a financial weight around the club's neck. The club's you mention may well have speculated. We know, or at least some of us do, that Wolves are in receipt of a parachute payment (how long that lasts I'm not sure), as for Bournemouth and Brentford, how they operate their business model isn't something I can comment on. I'll refer you once again to my post #41, oh I forgot, that's where you declared we are in debt.....I've no lack of ambition where this club is concerned, but I also like the idea that we're not lumbered with debt that goes straight out of the club and into the bank's pockets. Funny how this 'debate' about ambitious clubs never takes into account Portsmouth and the 'ambition' they showed not too long ago. From having Jermain Defoe as a star striker, they're now swimming around amongst the lower ranks of English football. Ambition is a desirable quality, but so is good governance. One without the other will lead to a fall from grace.

If NC and the Prince have a plan then I'll trust in them to carry it out. Rather than discuss/argue with other posters on here, why not write directly to Clough and/or the Prince telling them your concerns? That way this will cease to be a circular discussion and you'll be better informed.
 
I don't recall anyone on this forum saying we should spend millions willy nilly but come on for a club the size of Sheffield United the spending since dropping into league one has been frugal to say the least. The happy clapper types will try scaring everyone with words like "extinction, suicide, financial disaster" blah blah blah well tell you what we have heard the same noises for years, only for a brief period under Bryan Robson did this club ever throw stupid money at players. Yet year on year we sell our brightest young lights to replace them with inferior rubbish hence we are in our fourth season in league one. I should hope after a cup run to a Wembley semi final and the increase in ST sales that the money for Harry is still sat in the bank untouched. All well and good waiting to spend when we get in the championship (if we ever do) but even the likes of Donny and Rotherham have in recent years spent just as much as we have to get out of this division all done without the benefit of cup runs ,player sales every year, and on crowds only a fraction the size of ours. It really is time we showed some ambition and stopped just talking about it.
 
itsinyerblood said:
this is no longer the case. I can't move the tea leaves around and know how things will be in future, but for now it seems we're not lumbered with a financial weight around the club's neck.
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so what is the excuse now then??
your reply is very high handed if you don't mind me saying so.perhaps you are somehow connected with the club? btw this is an unofficial fansite and we have discussions on lots of things
in my original statement i believe i mentioned 'that i am not a knocker' just an interested party.
your post basically says 'stop posting questions about the club'. who do you think you are?
 
super_pig said:
so what is the excuse now then??
your reply is very high handed if you don't mind me saying so.perhaps you are somehow connected with the club? btw this is an unofficial fansite and we have discussions on lots of things
in my original statement i believe i mentioned 'that i am not a knocker' just an interested party.
your post basically says 'stop posting questions about the club'. who do you think you are?
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His reply seemed pretty reasonable to me. You're not usually this fragile SP? :-)
 
Sounds the Gone Elsewhere klaxon - signed for Peterborough.
 
LSF said:
His reply seemed pretty reasonable to me. You're not usually this fragile SP? :)
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and i quote:
'Rather than discuss/argue with other posters on here, why not write directly to Clough and/or the Prince telling them your concerns? That way this will cease to be a circular discussion and you'll be better informed.'
perhaps we could all write to Clough and/or the Prince and put to bed discussions about Ched and returning ex players as well then??
i asked a perfectly reasonable question. Seeing as we get twice as many fans as other teams, we had a decent cup run and always sell our best player every year, how come other teams sign better players and seem to still have less debt? Simples.
 
super_pig said:
and i quote:
'Rather than discuss/argue with other posters on here, why not write directly to Clough and/or the Prince telling them your concerns? That way this will cease to be a circular discussion and you'll be better informed.'
perhaps we could all write to Clough and/or the Prince and put to bed discussions about Ched and returning ex players as well then??
i asked a perfectly reasonable question. Seeing as we get twice as many fans as other teams, we had a decent cup run and always sell our best player every year, how come other teams sign better players and seem to still have less debt? Simples.
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It doesn't work anyway. I wrote to both Clough and The Prince asking if Michael Palin is a Blade or a Pig. Still waiting for a reply...
 
super_pig said:
so what is the excuse now then??
your reply is very high handed if you don't mind me saying so.perhaps you are somehow connected with the club? btw this is an unofficial fansite and we have discussions on lots of things
in my original statement i believe i mentioned 'that i am not a knocker' just an interested party.
your post basically says 'stop posting questions about the club'. who do you think you are?
Click to expand...

Oh, a whiff of conspiracy theory about this.....I'll leave the mystery of who I work for unanswered, that way you can return to this as a possibility in future, I wouldn't wish to destroy this fantasy for you.

I don't mind at all whether you think it's high handed or not, no skin off of my nose, but as LSF suggested, maybe you're being a tad fragile. As for the 'not posting' comment, strange one that. I'm a great believer in the maxim let a thousand flowers bloom, that way everyone will have their tuppence worth and not feel as if they've been denied a chance to comment. With your final pithy comment you've created your own high handed question with it's own, ready made, indignant response. Nice trick, if only it had any value.

One person I'm not.....Spartacus!
 



Signed for Posh.
 
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