Big Sam's 'Tevez' perspective

[Greenwich Blade]

If the comments were anything like what those around me were shouting at him from the kop, I think the shout box might have had to have been disabled for a while

My dad booed at the final whistle, and it was a proper boo, including him cupping his hands to his mouth for added amplification.

 

[oldblade]

So do I, but is that because of the context?

Probably. It's irrational, but somehow if we were to beat them it would feel like we were vindicated. Not that we should have anything to prove. We were not the ones who broke the rules and disadvantaged another club. As many others have said, I resent the way that we have been made to look like the bad guys and them as the victims.

 

[Darren]

Those were great occasions but we also played Villa and Wigan...

I'm not slagging Warnock, Darren. I was careful to say that he did a very good job in getting us to the PL. I believe, though, that history shows he always falls short at that level.

You know, we didn't have to be the club suffering at the hands of the cheats.

You are far better at statistics and records than me. Just how badly did we perform (results, I mean) once we had that 10 point cushion?

I was taking issue with the out of his depth point. 38 points is a reasonable return for a newly promoted club with a low wage budget. He was clearly not out of his depth that season. He did as well as could be expected, given his resources. I bet most of us would have taken 38 points at the start of the season. We were generally expected (along with Watford) to be certs for relegation.

After we beat Fulham 2-0 on 30/1/07, the results went:

3/2 A Blackburn L1-2
10/2 H Spurs W2-1
24/2 A Liverpool L 0-4
3/3 H Everton D1-1
17/3 A Chelsea L0-3
31/3 A Bolton L0-1
7/4 H Newcastle L1-2

So 4 points from 7 games, but really the only "disappointing" results were the Bolton and Newcastle ones. Looking at that list of fixtures, I think most neutrals would have expected no more than 5-6 points from those games, so not any massive under achievement.

We then went

14/4H WHU W3-0
17/4 A Man Utd L0-2
21/4 A Charlton D1-1
28/4 H Watford W1-0

So 7 from 4 in those games, and it looked good. We then had the debacle of the last two...

 

[oldblade]

Those were great occasions but we also played Villa and Wigan...

We played very well at Bramall Lane against Villa and away at Wigan.

 

[LSF]

And if you look at my posts iv'e said he was tactically inept,not actually out of his depth.

That's the third 'tactically inept' accusation you've used in this thread. I assume this judgement is weighed against your knowledge of tactics at premiership level?
I smile when blokes (or ladies) use the TI phrase when judging managers.

 

[Hollinsend]

I was told on Saturday that they've sold 28,000 tickets and 11,000 Tevez masks."

30,000 crowd and we get 45% of the gate money. Thanks for the cash, Shammers.

 

[judge]

The whole squad must have been premiership quality or we wouldnt have been relegated by another team cheating
GIven that we had a tactically inept manager who only signed development players he could steal money from I think the rest of the squad shoukd take a lot of credit for taking it so close

 

[Pinchy]

Probably. It's irrational, but somehow if we were to beat them it would feel like we were vindicated. Not that we should have anything to prove. We were not the ones who broke the rules and disadvantaged another club. As many others have said, I resent the way that we have been made to look like the bad guys and them as the victims.

So do I, vehemently. That won't change, though, whatever the result of the match.

The cheats should, in all logic, win the game comfortably tomorrow. We should not take it too much to heart if they do. We have tastier fish to fry, forget the jellied eels.

Easier said than done, I accept.

 

[JJ Sefton]

I was taking issue with the out of his depth point. 38 points is a reasonable return for a newly promoted club with a low wage budget. He was clearly not out of his depth that season. He did as well as could be expected, given his resources. I bet most of us would have taken 38 points at the start of the season. We were generally expected (along with Watford) to be certs for relegation.

After we beat Fulham 2-0 on 30/1/07, the results went:

3/2 A Blackburn L1-2
10/2 H Spurs W2-1
24/2 A Liverpool L 0-4
3/3 H Everton D1-1
17/3 A Chelsea L0-3
31/3 A Bolton L0-1
7/4 H Newcastle L1-2

So 4 points from 7 games, but really the only "disappointing" results were the Bolton and Newcastle ones. Looking at that list of fixtures, I think most neutrals would have expected no more than 5-6 points from those games, so not any massive under achievement.

We then went

14/4H WHU W3-0
17/4 A Man Utd L0-2
21/4 A Charlton D1-1
28/4 H Watford W1-0

So 7 from 4 in those games, and it looked good. We then had the debacle of the last two...

In how many seasons would the points tally we got in 06/07 have kept us up?

 

[Pinchy]

The whole squad must have been premiership quality or we wouldnt have been relegated by another team cheating
GIven that we had a tactically inept manager who only signed development players he could steal money from I think the rest of the squad shoukd take a lot of credit for taking it so close

You didn't manage that straight face, did you?....

 

[wizadry]

That's the third 'tactically inept' accusation you've used in this thread. I assume this judgement is weighed against your knowledge of tactics at premiership level?
I smile when blokes (or ladies) use the TI phrase when judging managers.

It wasn't an accusation.If you look at his stats in games,when at the top level,its quite proven,he just isn't quite upto doing the job in hand at the top level.Whether that been tactics or whatever you want to call it.

All the other leagues i think his tactics work,as this has been proved by the stats,this is why i think he's, guess what,tactically inept at the top level.

As smug as you said it,i don't have to be a manager in the premier league to have the opinion of Warnock at the top level.I see quite a lot of premier league football,so i will judge it on that.Its just my opinion.

 

[wizadry]

The whole squad must have been premiership quality or we wouldnt have been relegated by another team cheating
GIven that we had a tactically inept manager who only signed development players he could steal money from I think the rest of the squad shoukd take a lot of credit for taking it so close

You have some weird assumptions.

 

[bartman]

Everyone knew, at time that that 10 point gap was a false gap as it were, given how the fixtures fell. We all knew the gap would close given we still had Chelsea, Liverpool and Man Utd to play away.

Warnock was desperately unlucky in 06-07. We were relegated by the narrowest margin possible. Had West Ham not cheated, had we scored one of our pens v Blackburn, had we not had Kozluk's goal ruled out at WHU, we would have stayed up and there would have been none of this shit about NW being "out of his depth".

Had we been relegated by 10 points, you might have a point; saying that he was out his depth when we were relegated by one goal is just ludicrous.

don't forget his bemusing team selection on the final day of the season

 

[judge]

You didn't manage that straight face, did you?....

Yes , easily they held their own and with a bit of luck would have stayed up .you answer me a question then
If the players were all so shit and the manager so woefully out of his depth at that level then how come we took it so close ? Who is responsible for getting us to the final day of the season still in with a shout ? The shit players or the shit manager ?

 

[Bladesway]

Cheds out soon.

 

[LSF]

It wasn't an accusation.If you look at his stats in games,when at the top level,its quite proven,he just isn't quite upto doing the job in hand at the top level.Whether that been tactics or whatever you want to call it.

All the other leagues i think his tactics work,as this has been proved by the stats,this is why i think he's, guess what,tactically inept at the top level.

As smug as you said it,i don't have to be a manager in the premier league to have the opinion of Warnock at the top level.I see quite a lot of premier league football,so i will judge it on that.Its just my opinion.

Seeing lots of games at whatever level doesn't necessarily give the ability to be tactically knowledagble.
I wouldn't know whether NW is tactically able or not, but looking at the relative success he's had in management I'd say he's got more idea than me or thee, agreed?
Oh, and BTW, 'smug' wtf's that all about?

 

[wizadry]

Yes , easily they held their own and with a bit of luck would have stayed up .you answer me a question then
If the players were all so shit and the manager so woefully out of his depth at that level then how come we took it so close ? Who is responsible for getting us to the final day of the season still in with a shout ? The shit players or the shit manager ?

judge ,he took us close there is no doubting that,but this is where our points differ.You think he was good enough to keep us up,i didn't,for the reason i have all ready given 4 times in previous posts,i just think he would have always come up short imo.And it is just my opinion.

 

[wizadry]

Seeing lots of games at whatever level doesn't necessarily give the ability to be tactically knowledagble.
I wouldn't know whether NW is tactically able or not, but looking at the relative success he's had in management I'd say he's got more idea than me or thee, agreed?
Oh, and BTW, 'smug' wtf's that all about?

The smug was when you said you smile,thats all.

I do agree that NW knows more then us,but that won't stop me giving my opinion on why we went down from the top division.

 

[Pinchy]

Yes , easily they held their own and with a bit of luck would have stayed up .you answer me a question then
If the players were all so shit and the manager so woefully out of his depth at that level then how come we took it so close ? Who is responsible for getting us to the final day of the season still in with a shout ? The shit players or the shit manager ?

This is getting worse by the minute.

Failure has become a notable achievement!

You were about to tell us, stifling a nervous laugh, about the Premiership quality players recruited by Warnock, were you not?

 

[LSF]

The smug was when you said you smile,thats all.

I do agree that NW knows more then us,but that won't stop me giving my opinion on why we went down from the top division.

Smile = smug... Fair enough...
Please don't stop giving your opinions mate, generally I agree with you most of the time, but if I don't, I can say so hopefully without offending.

 

[judge]

This is getting worse by the minute.

Failure has become a notable achievement!

You were about to tell us, stifling a nervous laugh, about the Premiership quality players recruited by Warnock, were you not?

No I already did that , why dont you answer my question ?

 

[Pinchy]

When do you think we'll get the "West Ham Fan In Peace" posting? I've got me guitar ready for a Blades Vs Hammers remix of Come By Ya.

I hope you sing it correctly, mate. Our philharmonic fans could never manage it!

 

[Pinchy]

No I already did that , why dont you answer my question ?

I have. Read my second paragraph.

 

[judge]

Failure has become a notable achievement ?

 

[wizadry]

Smile = smug... Fair enough...
Please don't stop giving your opinions mate, generally I agree with you most of the time, but if I don't, I can say so hopefully without offending.

I didn't mean offence either,its just that i could imagine the look on ones face while saying what you said,it wasn't meant to offend.

 

[wizadry]

Anyway LSF ,what happened to Doyle as your avator?

 

[Pinchy]

Failure has become a notable achievement ?

Yes, that is the proposition you are asking me to answer. You want me to deal with how well we did by not quite avoiding relegation? The question is absurd and the answer obvious and already stated. Coming close to avoiding relegation is failure.

Now, let's be clear: You say that all the players recruited by Warnock were Premiership quality?

 

[oldblade]

It wasn't an accusation.If you look at his stats in games,when at the top level,its quite proven,he just isn't quite upto doing the job in hand at the top level.Whether that been tactics or whatever you want to call it.

All the other leagues i think his tactics work,as this has been proved by the stats,this is why i think he's, guess what,tactically inept at the top level.

As smug as you said it,i don't have to be a manager in the premier league to have the opinion of Warnock at the top level.I see quite a lot of premier league football,so i will judge it on that.Its just my opinion.

We were a newly promoted side and our wage bill was less than the vast majority of our competitors, and yet we got 38 points - the same as the team that finished one place above us. We went down on goal difference.

We competed in some very entertaining matches that season and won matches that we were probably expected to lose as well as losing some matches that we might have expected to win.

We had a bad run after opening up a substantial cushion. But if you look at the fixtures we had during that bad run it was obvious we would need that cushion. We would not really have been expected to get many points from those matches.

I think 'inept' when describing Warnock's tactics is an exaggeration. We were probably a little too negative away from home, but then had we been more adventurous we may have received far more heavier defeats. That is something we can discuss but will never ever know for sure.

A manager who puts together a side that gets 38 points in the premier league on a lower wage bill than nearly all it's competitors and then only gets relegated on goal difference is not 'inept'.

In my opinion we were probably undone as much by individual errors in the matches at home to Everton and Portsmouth as by any allegedly poor tactical judgements by our manager.

 

[Darren]

In how many seasons would the points tally we got in 06/07 have kept us up?

Of the 19 seasons where there have been 20 teams in the PL a point tally of 38 and GD of -23 would have been enough to stay up in 14 seasons.* Since we went down only one team out of 21 has gone down with 38 points or more (Birmingham with 39 in 2011).

So in other words, what NW got would have been enough to stay up in around 75% of seasons. As I say, I think most of us would have taken that in Aug 06.

* In 1996 Man City went down with 38 points and a GD of -25

 

[judge]

Yes, that is the proposition you are asking me to answer. You want me to deal with how well we did by not quite avoiding relegation? The question is absurd and the answer obvious and already stated. Coming close to avoiding relegation is failure.

Now, let's be clear: You say that all the players recruited by Warnock were Premiership quality?

The squad finnished the season on 38 points , someone must be responsible for this
You say that the players werent premiership quality and the manager was woefully inept so how on earth did we come within one goal of staying in the most cash rich sporting arena in the world ?

Was it your ability to avoid answering simple questions that got us there because that seems to be all youre offering up