“The pyramid is broken”

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Nick Jansky said:
Yes, we are. But as soon as you don’t get back up quickly you rapidly become a Norwich or WBA, and there’s an inevitability about that.
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Yep. I see 3 main medium term outcomes for us.

1. Continue to yo-yo, using the ‘failure payments’ to keep a strong championship side together, accepting meek surrenders in the prem every other season.
2. Roll the dice in the prem and survive, somehow establishing ourselves as a premier league regular - the least likely of the 3 and the most risky, even then you’re only one bad season away from the yo-yo cycle starting again.
3. We miss out on promotion and get marooned in the championship, like the teams you’ve mentioned - there seems an inevitability that eventually we do fall into this group.
 
It’s a catch 22 .. no I don’t think if we get up we’d stay up .. the quality & depth of the established PL sides is getting stronger each year . 10 years ago you’d probably get sides involved in a relegation battle up to maybe 13th in the table , nowadays it’s the promoted 3 plus maybe a couple more at best . If last years 3 promoted are relegated as looking likely , it will fuel the call from the current PL incumbents to make the league a franchise without promotion into it / nor relegation from it sadly .
In terms of us , as much as we like the championship for it’s competition the reality is that sides that don’t get promoted lose their best players & young talent & you end up having to sell to balance the books .
I don’t like where football has ended up now & it almost feels like clubs treading water all the time & takes away from the excitement of what promotion into the top division used to be . It’s a sad indictment of how the riches coming into football has now ruined the game ⚔️
 
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John Street West Terrace said:
It’s a catch 22 .. no I don’t think if we get up we’d stay up .. the quality & depth of the established PL sides is getting stronger each year . 10 years ago you’d probably get sides involved in a relegation battle up to maybe 13th in the table , nowadays it’s the promoted 3 plus maybe a couple more at best . If last years 3 promoted are relegated as looking likely , it will fuel the call from the current PL incumbents to make the league a franchise without promotion into it / nor relegation from it sadly .
In terms of us , as much as we like the championship for it’s competition the reality is that sides that don’t get promoted lose their best players & young talent & you end up having to sell to balance the books .
I don’t like where football has ended up now & it almost feels like clubs treading water all the time & takes away from the excitement of what promotion into the top division used to be . It’s a sad indictment of how the riches coming into football has now ruined the game ⚔️
Click to expand...
Yesterday's results sum up the problems facing promoted clubs.
All 3 getting hammered at home, with fans starting to walk out after 30 minutes. All 3 marooned at the bottom of the table.
From a fans point of view, is it worth it?
 
John Street West Terrace said:
I don’t like where football has ended up now & it almost feels like clubs treading water all the time & takes away from the excitement of what promotion into the top division used to be . It’s a sad indictment of how the riches coming into football has now ruined the game ⚔️
Click to expand...

It’s a strange one….when you say ruined….you mean football has changed and isn’t like it used to be.

However millions would argue it’s far better. The Premier league and football in general has never been as popular.
It’s a huge success, especially abroad with experts predicting it will become more popular and even richer.

Ticket prices have increased across the board, yet attendances have continued to increase, making the PL the best attended league in world football.
Also several clubs in the PL have waiting lists of 25,000 and 30,000. This means loads of clubs are planning to expand their stadium capacity.

Does make you wonder where it’s heading and have we let the genie out of the bottle, so it’s now out of control.
Think the PL is gauranteed a big future however the other leagues are likely to suffer.

People talked about the PL eventually becoming a closed shop with no promotion/ relegation.
This would be highly controversial, but 1 way to achieve this is to widen the quality gap between the 2 leagues, so relegation from the PL isn’t a disaster
because most relegated teams are almost gauranteed to return back to the PL the following season.
 
I think Yo Yo sides generally end up at the bottom of the string not at the top…But from our perspective I would rip your hand off for a slightly less humiliating relegation next time…That would be progress in my eyes.
 
Sheffsteel said:
It’s a strange one….when you say ruined….you mean football has changed and isn’t like it used to be.

However millions would argue it’s far better. The Premier league and football in general has never been as popular.
It’s a huge success, especially abroad with experts predicting it will become more popular and even richer.

Ticket prices have increased across the board, yet attendances have continued to increase, making the PL the best attended league in world football.
Also several clubs in the PL have waiting lists of 25,000 and 30,000. This means loads of clubs are planning to expand their stadium capacity.

Does make you wonder where it’s heading and have we let the genie out of the bottle, so it’s now out of control.
Think the PL is gauranteed a big future however the other leagues are likely to suffer.

People talked about the PL eventually becoming a closed shop with no promotion/ relegation.
This would be highly controversial, but 1 way to achieve this is to widen the quality gap between the 2 leagues, so relegation from the PL isn’t a disaster
because most relegated teams are almost gauranteed to return back to the PL the following season.
Click to expand...

Best TV league in the world
 
bakeblade said:
Yesterday's results sum up the problems facing promoted clubs.
All 3 getting hammered at home, with fans starting to walk out after 30 minutes. All 3 marooned at the bottom of the table.
From a fans point of view, is it worth it?
Click to expand...
I love the chase of promotion, but in all honesty, once in the so called "promised land" I just feel a bit "meh" about it all
 
Sheffsteel said:
It’s a strange one….when you say ruined….you mean football has changed and isn’t like it used to be.

However millions would argue it’s far better. The Premier league and football in general has never been as popular.
It’s a huge success, especially abroad with experts predicting it will become more popular and even richer.

Ticket prices have increased across the board, yet attendances have continued to increase, making the PL the best attended league in world football.
Also several clubs in the PL have waiting lists of 25,000 and 30,000. This means loads of clubs are planning to expand their stadium capacity.

Does make you wonder where it’s heading and have we let the genie out of the bottle, so it’s now out of control.
Think the PL is gauranteed a big future however the other leagues are likely to suffer.

People talked about the PL eventually becoming a closed shop with no promotion/ relegation.
This would be highly controversial, but 1 way to achieve this is to widen the quality gap between the 2 leagues, so relegation from the PL isn’t a disaster
because most relegated teams are almost gauranteed to return back to the PL the following season.
Click to expand...
The halfway house I could see happening is the PL reducing the promoted clubs to 2 instead of 3 , the rationale behind it being it allows one additional club to find financial sustainability and gaining a foothold in there .
Yes I would agree in that that quality is now better but at what expense ? it’s becoming very predictable in its outcome now with odd team jumping in & out with the big boys , you could draw a predicted league table up in August & get the vast majority right .
The top 8 biggest clubs have no regard whatsoever for other PL sides & I think the European Super League is an inevitability in the not too distant future & that may rebalance things a bit , this may cause the PL to rethink their model & support the Championship sides some more thst would be needed to backfill those exiting
 
SouthEssexBlade said:
Best TV league in the world
Click to expand...

The world wide TV numbers are more then double its nearest competitor.
Also financially and numbers wise the PL is best attended league in the world with massive waiting lists of people wanting to attend PL matches,

The popularity is astounding, Man Utd have a season ticket waiting list of 35,000.
Arsenal and Newcastle have ST waiting lists of 30,000. Even Leeds have a waiting list of 22,000.

Man Utd are considering building a 90,000 capacity stadium. Newcastle are thinking of building a 80,000 capacity stadium, they’d both fill them.
This is the reason why prices have increased but amazingly as people are priced out…there’s an army of rich fans willing to take their place.

It does make you wonder where English football is heading and whether it will all end in tears with clubs going bust etc.
However I remember In 2000 loads of fans saying the PL bubble is about to burst, then they said the same in 2010.
Many have predicted doom but it’s only become bigger…bigger…richer and richer. Economically a remarkable success.

I heard a pod cast the other week talking about the current danger in the PL is ticket touting web sites.
They have bots buying up the official tickets…then they try to sell them at between £1000 and £5000 each…and guess what?
some really wealthy people (especially from overseas are willing to pay those vast sums to attend big matches like Liverpool v Man City)

Another big future problem with the PL is the age profile of fans, it’s really old.
Every match is sold out, with most being old aged season tickets holders……young new fans just can’t buy tickets because there aren’t any spare.
 
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bakeblade said:
Yesterday's results sum up the problems facing promoted clubs.
All 3 getting hammered at home, with fans starting to walk out after 30 minutes. All 3 marooned at the bottom of the table.
From a fans point of view, is it worth it?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately yes it is, if only for the very slim hope that you did manage to survive.
The alternative is being a Stoke Win one, lose one, Draw one, every three weeks, crowds would plummet and the atmosphere would be well there wouldn't be much of a one, you would just hear the players talking to each other.
 

Let’s see we go with new ownership. If we fight, bloody some noses and then come back down, but get a new training ground / better recruitment staff / academy upgrades for example, it’s well worth it.

We need to get our off the field infrastructure ready to have a proper tilt at staying up. It’s not there yet, but who knows with proper investment?
 
Broomhall Blade said:
Unfortunately yes it is, if only for the very slim hope that you did manage to survive.
The alternative is being a Stoke Win one, lose one, Draw one, every three weeks, crowds would plummet and the atmosphere would be well there wouldn't be much of a one, you would just hear the players talking to each other.
Click to expand...

Stoke atmosphere was fantastic during their stint in the Prem and they even had a European run (qualifying from the Group but getting knocked out by Valencia). That’s the kind of thing we can only dream about.
 
The demographic of fans has definitely changed in the top flight at least amongst the top half dozen or so. Long gone are the days when the blokes from the half day shift went to the football in the afternoon as I remember from my childhood.
The standard of football etc. has improved but there has been a cost. I’m in a fortunate position that I can buy my season ticket every year but my eldest son has stopped coming because he can’t afford the cost alongside a mortgage and young family. My grandson is very young but whether I’ll be able to afford to get him into coming regularly remains to be seen.
The other thing is whether people forget about the gap between the other leagues which is growing too.
 
Sheffsteel said:
The world wide TV numbers are more then double its nearest competitor.
Also financially and numbers wise the PL is best attended league in the world with massive waiting lists of people wanting to attend PL matches,

The popularity is astounding, Man Utd have a season ticket waiting list of 35,000.
Arsenal and Newcastle have ST waiting lists of 30,000. Even Leeds have a waiting list of 22,000.

Man Utd are considering building a 90,000 capacity stadium. Newcastle are thinking of building a 80,000 capacity stadium, they’d both fill them.
This is the reason why prices have increased but amazingly as people are priced out…there’s an army of rich fans willing to take their place.

It does make you wonder where English football is heading and whether it will all end in tears with clubs going bust etc.
However I remember In 2000 loads of fans saying the PL bubble is about to burst, then they said the same in 2010.
Many have predicted doom but it’s only become bigger…bigger…richer and richer. Economically a remarkable success.

I heard a pod cast the other week talking about the current danger in the PL is ticket touting web sites.
They have bots buying up the official tickets…then they try to sell them at between £1000 and £5000 each…and guess what?
some really wealthy people (especially from overseas are willing to pay those vast sums to attend big matches like Liverpool v Man City)

Another big future problem with the PL is the age profile of fans, it’s really old.
Every match is sold out, with most being old aged season tickets holders……young new fans just can’t buy tickets because there aren’t any spare.
Click to expand...
We are literally the only club in recent times that never fills the stadium in that league.
 
John Street West Terrace said:
The halfway house I could see happening is the PL reducing the promoted clubs to 2 instead of 3 , the rationale behind it being it allows one additional club to find financial sustainability and gaining a foothold in there .
Yes I would agree in that that quality is now better but at what expense ? it’s becoming very predictable in its outcome now with odd team jumping in & out with the big boys , you could draw a predicted league table up in August & get the vast majority right .
The top 8 biggest clubs have no regard whatsoever for other PL sides & I think the European Super League is an inevitability in the not too distant future & that may rebalance things a bit , this may cause the PL to rethink their model & support the Championship sides some more thst would be needed to backfill those exiting
Click to expand...
But surely that idea only works for the first season its introduced, 3 go up then reduced to 2 up so one of the 3 promoted teams the previous season at least gets to survive.
But the following season when only two go up normal service will be resumed they will go straight back down.
A few ideas that might help.

Allow promoted sides to sign more loan players from Premiership sides and the the perent clubs cannot stop them playing against them.

But the biggest thing they could do is reduce the allowed substitutions back to the previous levels, because for me that is the one decision that has 100% only benefited the top sides.
 
Rodley said:
Stoke atmosphere was fantastic during their stint in the Prem and they even had a European run (qualifying from the Group but getting knocked out by Valencia). That’s the kind of thing we can only dream about.
Click to expand...
I'm sure it was but I was on about now they have been in the Championship for a number of years.
No disrespect to Stoke meant, just not something I would like to see United do.
 
People quote clubs like Luton, Watford,Stoke etc and for good reason but, a few clubs do manage to stay up and, compete, clubs like Brighton,Bournemouth and Brentford, all small clubs without big crowds, I accept they have wealthy owners but for me it's something to hope we can achieve now we have new owners?
Got to have hope surely.
 
Boxer Blade said:
People quote clubs like Luton, Watford,Stoke etc and for good reason but, a few clubs do manage to stay up and, compete, clubs like Brighton,Bournemouth and Brentford, all small clubs without big crowds, I accept they have wealthy owners but for me it's something to hope we can achieve now we have new owners?
Got to have hope surely.
Click to expand...
It’s all about the signings for the likes of clubs you mention. I remember reading on here that Luton were making good signings because they were building a team to go straight back up if they were relegated, also seen it mentioned with our signings in the past and thought I’ve never read such nonsense. No club will survive if they are signing good championship players for the inevitable relegation, I know it’s hard for a club like us to sign premier league standard players but the likes of Branford, Brighton have unearthed some right gems so fingers crossed it will click with signings at some point for us and we can establish ourselves in the PL like they have.
 
The biggest threat to football is not that your team might get relegated, that is part and parcel of the game. It is that it becomes unaffordable for the average man in the street,
 
North Shields Blade said:
www.theguardian.com

Championship top trio enjoy parachute payments but risk crash landings | Jonathan Wilson

Leeds, Sheffield United and Burnley are all vying for Premier League returns but fans will ask if it’s really worth it
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Are we a mezzanine side?
Click to expand...
Dear oh dear the tone on that article is shocking, talk of monks making carvings and mezzanine clubs, it's very London, isn't it.

In old money we're a yo-yo club.

I agree that the failure payments are a benefit to the relegated sides, but without them, i'm not sure how sides going up could even invest in better players.

I did a very quick check on when each club was last in the Top Tier and last in the 3rd tier, since the formation of the Premier League and tabulated it below:


ClubTop Tier3rd Tier
Leeds United2023N/A
SUFC20242017
Burnley 20241999
Sunderland20172022
WBA20211993
Blackburn Rovers20122018
Coventry City20012020
Bristol CityN/A2015
Norwich City2022N/A
MillwallN/A2017
Watford20221998
Pigs20002023
Middlesborough2017N/A
QPR20152004
Preston North EndN/A2015
Swansea City20182001
Portsmouth20102024
Oxford UnitedN/A2024
Stoke City 20182002
Hull City20172021
Cardiff City20192003
Plymouth ArgyleN/A2023
Derby County20082024
Luton Town 20242019

From my quick check:
12 sides have been in the Premier League most recently than League one
12 sides have been in League one most recently than the Premier League

7 sides have been in the Premier league in the last 5 years
8 sides have been in League one in the last 5 years

5 sides haven't been in the Premier League
3 sides haven't been down to League one.

It doesn't really say a lot, but i was interested to see how the championship was made up and it certainly seems that there is a fair bit of movement between the leagues, which is probably healthy for the game.

What strikes me and always has with the Championship is that its so competitive. Hull beating Sunderland and Sheff United in a few weeks, Boro dropping like a stone, QPR rising in a mirror image of Boro to be level on points

The Top 2 is a fight now between 3 sides, but for the one that drops out, they may lose in the play offs. As it stands, there's currently 17 points from Burnley in 3rd to Blackburn in 6th. However, the pigs down in 12th are just two wins, 6 points below Blackburn and they tell us that they could make the play offs, which they could indeed... for all their clean sheets Burnley, having hammered the pigs 4-0 on Friday, could miss out on promotion having conceded just 9 goals until now to a side that's conceded 54 goals. Only Plymouth in 22nd Place, Pompey in 17th and Cardiff 21st have conceded more goals than the pigs.

It all sounds a bit mental and i'm not sure the pyramid is broken at all from this snapshot.
 

b1ade4life said:
I love the chase of promotion, but in all honesty, once in the so called "promised land" I just feel a bit "meh" about it all
Click to expand...
Yes, if we could have the money and pass on the promotion, I think a few on here would go for that.
But football is a metaphor for life and without incentives and dreams it would be very boring existence.
 
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