Pressing not working/midfield

[Wizard]

Always appreciate the analysis. I do think 5-3-2 is a perfectly fine way to setup, especially for keeping things tight, but that sometimes you can just get the organisation wrong or not play well.

Brentford have had success in the premier league for a couple years now and they've mainly set up in a 5-3-2 but the make up of their squad is slightly different to ours, where we've had an abundance of traditional number 9 types (Sharp, McBurnie, Brewster, Jebbison, Osula etc.) they seem to have targeted more flexible wide forwards that are comfortable across a front 3 (Mbeumo, Wissa, Schade, Lewis-Potter etc.) and played them next to Toney - their only traditional striker. This gives them a threat in behind that I think we sometimes lack and also allows them to move to a 4-3-3 in games/moments that call for it.

I also think Luton have strengthened well from last season and will cause a few teams problems. Wouldn't be surprised if they stayed up while also favouring a 5-3-2 shape. Often it's largely down to the personnel and at the moment we're definitely weaker than we were at the end of last season. Say we were going into Palace with the lineup that ended last season:

Wes
Baldock - Anel - Egan - Robinson - Lowe
Berge - Doyle - McAtee
Ndiaye - McBurnie
(and the likes of Slimane, Traore, Trusty on the bench)

We'd all be feeling a lot more confident about the season so I think our problems atm are more down to the players than the tactical setup. It's not hopeless but it's a tough job to recruit anything comparable to Doyle, McAtee & Ndiaye. We've still got time to make additions and I'm confident 3/4 more will come in but they've got to be impactful because currently we're not at the level in terms of quality in midfield/attack

 

[Foxy]

It was apparent that our play patterns were nowhere near as ingrained as I would either like or expect. Certain basics, in direct comparison to “Ze Germans” were lacking, in particular the pass in front of the direction of play rather than behind it. Soooo frustrating !!!

There was one ball from Slimane in front of the man, for him to run onto and it gained us 10/15 yards…

From the crowd as he played it there were groans and one fella nearby: “pick out a man, who is that to?!”.

Erm… him, there, now on the ball

 

[8lade]

A lot of people talking about additional players and getting up to speed; this season with the kind early fixtures we really need to be on it from match 1. I hope we haven't already blown it and go down on goal difference but we are seriously light by about 3 players in our starting line up. We need additions over the line now, if that takes a few extra quid so be it and this is just for the starting 11!

 

[Jon B]

The great advantage of winning automatic promotion rather than through the play offs is you get a head start on strengthening the squad.

However, our financial situation was so dire that we didn't seem able to make use of this advantage.

Now we're at last getting fresh blood in but it's all so late in the day that the new guys haven't had time to bed in and get to know our playing style and the strengths and weaknesses of their teammates before the season gets under way. And the worry is our first 4 fixtures include 3 games against teams that could be with us in the relegation mix at Season's end.

Today the new guys didn't look overly impressive but they've hardly had chance to settle in. And we had the bad luck of a pre-season build up centred around hanging on to Ndiaye which turned out to be a false hope.

Hecky, McCall and Lester have been given a hospital pass by the owners. I think they're really good at what they do but they're not magicians.

I hope I'm wrong and it turns out we have wizards on and off the field.

 

[john Mathison]

So, who will be our starting 20 on saturday??????? That's right, 20!!!!!!!!! First eleven and 9 subs!!!!!!! God help us.
Today, that german side finished third bottom, but won play off against third side in their League 2!!!!!

Berge was getting really angry today with his teammates, wonder why???????
Call me weird, but Hecky seemed quite happy we had been shafted today, mind games with the board maybe????

 

[Keen Blade]

Having looked at Bergens photos & analysis , I am drawn back to my soapbox of “how can a manager see what’s going wrong across the width of the pitch from touch line level ?”
Surely he needs to watch from a higher vantage point and communicate with assistants on the touch line to implement changes ?
If that’s not gonna happen , I hope at least that HJ&SMc show the video filmed from on high of what went wrong to improve the players understanding of what’s required.
Clearly today we looked like a team that had no idea what was happening to them or where they were supposed to be & doing what.
A shambolic performance like that in the PL will see us die by a thousand cuts.
Hecky has chosen to underline the lack of recruitment and the fact that we are significantly weaker in quality than last season (which is undeniable) but the lateness of additions will mean even further lack of readiness in August & September.
So unless we are content to gain hardly any points before October , he & his staff will need to organize the available players a bit better and change things mid game if it’s not working.

 

[Keen Blade]

So, who will be our starting 20 on saturday??????? That's right, 20!!!!!!!!! First eleven and 9 subs!!!!!!! God help us.
Today, that german side finished third bottom, but won play off against third side in their League 2!!!!!

Berge was getting really angry today with his teammates, wonder why???????
Call me weird, but Hecky seemed quite happy we had been shafted today, mind games with the board maybe????

I wouldn’t go so far as to say happy but today must assist his case versus the owner who seems satisfied to put out a team weaker than the one which gained promotion which is a strategy for failure even more overt than what Norwich did.

 

[Houston_Blade]

our crowd wont allow em to play like that next saturday booker if ever our fans needed to get back to how the lane rocked a few seasons ago this is the season it could be vital if were to have any chance of staying in this division we need to be hostile and intimidating again towards visiting teams

Players need to play more than the fans need to shout and sing.

I get that BDTBL can be intimidating, but if we’ve got a shit team with no defensive cohesion or attacking intent it really doesn’t matter if we sing for 90 minutes. We’ll lose.

 

[jono_t2000]

Today, that german side finished third bottom, but won play off against third side in their League 2!!!!!

Tbf before their current manager came in at end of last season they were almost rock bottom.

Since he came in they were averaging enough points to finish 6th if he had been manager from start of the season.

A much better team than where they finished in the standings.

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

I love a Bergen Blade post, me. Brilliant, as usual.

I get the awful feeling that Bergen has basically written the analysis/match report for all games for the rest of the season. 3 lines: fwds, mids, defence, all isolated from one another, all off the pace, all second to every ball.

Drubbing, drubbing, drubbings galore.

 

[Pittsburg Blade]

Tbf before their current manager came in at end of last season they were almost rock bottom.

Since he came in they were averaging enough points to finish 6th if he had been manager from start of the season.

A much better team than where they finished in the standings.

They looked terrific today.
Fast and skillful with a good team ethic.
I think they’ll do well and will be good to keep an eye on them, for the fun of it.

 

[metalblade]

Reminded me of the game quite a few years ago now when the Arsenal U21's passed us to death and also easily won 0-3

 

[Bergen Blade]

well having just bought trusty for the lcb role very much doubt were ditching the 3 at the back the way stuttgart set up today will be similar to how most premier league teams will play i think playing 2 up top is a luxury we cannot afford to play at this level we need more bodies in midfield stuttgart completely outnumbered us there today but broke quickly to sometimes have 4/5 men inside our box we need a couple of strikers but we probably need 3 more midfielders to come in slimane was very dissapointing today and osborn just isnt good enough

I agree we will keep the back 3, but we'll probably try a few tweaks further forward.

Hopefully Slimane and Larouci will improve as they adapt. It is extra hard for the new lads to impress when the entire team is struggling.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Excellent analysis. What was worrying was that we did nothing that I could see to counter this formation wise. Appreciate we had limited options on the bench but the number of times Stuttgart passed through the middle with ease was concerning. Berge needs to be further forward pressing from the front in a 3-4-2-1 as one of the 2 10's. 5-4-1 against the likes of City would be better than the flat 3 in a 3-5-2 played to-day. It just didn't work and isolated the front 2 as you have pointed out.

To be fair, I think Heckingbottom realised that and did change our formation towards the end of the relegation season to a more 343 formation with Osborn further forward and Fleck and Norwood the central 2.

I think we would have made changes if it was a competitive game. Yesterday was probably more about getting the new players used to the basic system. Additionally, it may be what Hecky plans to do against Palace. Not saying I agree with that, but it will be different, with Palace usually playing 4-2-3-1 under Hodgson. So maybe Hecky thinks the 5-3-2 will work better against them.

Hecky should remember his own tweak from the PL relegation season, as Colombia Blade points out. After a few games he improved results tweaking our formation to 5-2-2-1. But in that improved run he returned to Wilder's 5-3-2 twice. One was at Tottenham (0-4), but interestingly also at home against Roy Hodgson's Crystal Palace, with us losing 0-2. Hope Hecky remembers! Otherwise we did well with Hecky's 5-2-2-1 (highlighted below).

 

[Bergen Blade]

Interesting analysis and I agree, we rarely pressed high and as a unit. However, two of Stuttgart’s goals came from individual errors - Traore and Osborn - who gave away possession in midfield areas and got punished. That’s before we get into Slimane’s ball watching and Wes getting done at his front post, which contributed to the first two goals. Defending for the third goal also looked Miller Lite with minimal commitment to stop the ball into the box and nobody near the scorer.

Last season’s success and our first season back in the Prem under Wilder were built on defensive discipline, very few errors and, yes, frequently turning the ball over in the attacking third. Lacking in all these areas today.

Yes, we looked vulnerable when they broke. We are going to lose possession, but need to deal with those situations a lot better.

 

[Wincobank S9 Blade]

Really not convinced with goal keeping options I think our domestic or foreign loans for this position wouldn’t go a miss if we haven’t budgeted for it, would be much more comfortable if someone was at least to compete with Wes.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Where we playing 3-5-2 or was it 5-3-2 it was hard to tell, looked like a team who had just met each other a hour before kick off. Slimane was only slightly better than the dreadful Osborn it was a total shambles today, not my usual view from the kop but still. I think Hecky has a few months worth of work to do in the next seven days we are way off what is required. At one point I was counting the players on each side, Stuttgart looked to have two extra men on the field at all times.

Personally I see those formation as the same, it's three centre halves and wingbacks. I sometimes prefer to put wingbacks in defence, as the important bit - the midfield and forward - are then more easily illustrated with lower numbers:

• 5-3-2 ("flat" midfield 3, 2 strikers),
• 5-2-1-2 (two holding, one 10, 2 strikers)
• 5-2-2-1 (2 holding, 2 wideish 10s, 1 striker)

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

God I hope so

Its the "hope" that kills you in the end.

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

Personally I see those formation as the same, it's three centre halves and wingbacks. I sometimes prefer to put wingbacks in defence, as the important bit - the midfield and forward - are then more easily illustrated with lower numbers:

• 5-3-2 ("flat" midfield 3, 2 strikers),
• 5-2-1-2 (two holding, one 10, 2 strikers)
• 5-2-2-1 (2 holding, 2 wideish 10s, 1 striker)

5-2-2-1
is'nt that the formation that Crystal Palace use..............Eze and Olise as the wideish 10's

 

[Bergen Blade]

Always appreciate the analysis. I do think 5-3-2 is a perfectly fine way to setup, especially for keeping things tight, but that sometimes you can just get the organisation wrong or not play well.

Brentford have had success in the premier league for a couple years now and they've mainly set up in a 5-3-2 but the make up of their squad is slightly different to ours, where we've had an abundance of traditional number 9 types (Sharp, McBurnie, Brewster, Jebbison, Osula etc.) they seem to have targeted more flexible wide forwards that are comfortable across a front 3 (Mbeumo, Wissa, Schade, Lewis-Potter etc.) and played them next to Toney - their only traditional striker. This gives them a threat in behind that I think we sometimes lack and also allows them to move to a 4-3-3 in games/moments that call for it.

I also think Luton have strengthened well from last season and will cause a few teams problems. Wouldn't be surprised if they stayed up while also favouring a 5-3-2 shape. Often it's largely down to the personnel and at the moment we're definitely weaker than we were at the end of last season. Say we were going into Palace with the lineup that ended last season:

Wes
Baldock - Anel - Egan - Robinson - Lowe
Berge - Doyle - McAtee
Ndiaye - McBurnie
(and the likes of Slimane, Traore, Trusty on the bench)

We'd all be feeling a lot more confident about the season so I think our problems atm are more down to the players than the tactical setup. It's not hopeless but it's a tough job to recruit anything comparable to Doyle, McAtee & Ndiaye. We've still got time to make additions and I'm confident 3/4 more will come in but they've got to be impactful because currently we're not at the level in terms of quality in midfield/attack

Hecky did change our formation a number of times last season, also for spells during games. Here's one example with the same front five as you mentioned, but in a 5-2-2-1 (3-4-2-1) formation. I agree that all formations can work, but it's dependent on the players selected, the opposition and loads of other variables, meaning tweaks are sometimes required to give the team a better chance.

 

[blade too long]

What players make up the other half of this first team?

those that got us promoted , trusty and hopefully fit mc b and Brewster has as good a chance as any to prove his valuation
Norrington RD will feature, not too far off still missing Bogle

 

[Bergen Blade]

There was one ball from Slimane in front of the man, for him to run onto and it gained us 10/15 yards…

From the crowd as he played it there were groans and one fella nearby: “pick out a man, who is that to?!”.

Erm… him, there, now on the ball

I think Slimane expected Baldock to come running onto that, and was surprised that he'd stayed back, so Slimane had to go for it himself.

 

[Foxy]

I think Slimane expected Baldock to come running onto that, and was surprised that he'd stayed back, so Slimane had to go for it himself.

Wasn’t that one I meant, but yeah, was right in front of us that one, both expected the other.

 

[Wizard]

Hecky did change our formation a number of times last season, also for spells during games. Here's one example with the same front five as you mentioned, but in a 5-2-2-1 (3-4-2-1) formation. I agree that all formations can work, but it's dependent on the players selected, the opposition and loads of other variables, meaning tweaks are sometimes required to give the team a better chance.

View attachment 167338

Yeah I think he's been pretty good at tweaking the shape depending on the opposition while still using the same players.

5-2-2-1/5-4-1 as you've said, seemed to be a noticeable switch towards the end of last season and might be what we favour mostly next year depending on our recruitment.

And smaller out of possession tweaks such as:

• 5-3-1-1 e.g. vs City in the cup with Ndiaye doing a lot of tracking back and sitting on Rodri.
• 5-1-3-1 eg. vs Swansea? 21-22 with Fleck and Berge pushing really high on the wide centre backs and MGW sometimes even dropping in all the way alongside Norwood to cover.

Hoping the Stuttgart game can be put down to lack of personnel / bedding in new players / preseason weirdness.

Would like to see us recruit more versatile players though. Our midfield especially looks like it really struggles without the cover of a back 5 behind them when they have more of a responsibility to screen and cover ground

 

[petcharlie]

The great advantage of winning automatic promotion rather than through the play offs is you get a head start on strengthening the squad.

However, our financial situation was so dire that we didn't seem able to make use of this advantage.

Now we're at last getting fresh blood in but it's all so late in the day that the new guys haven't had time to bed in and get to know our playing style and the strengths and weaknesses of their teammates before the season gets under way. And the worry is our first 4 fixtures include 3 games against teams that could be with us in the relegation mix at Season's end.

Today the new guys didn't look overly impressive but they've hardly had chance to settle in. And we had the bad luck of a pre-season build up centred around hanging on to Ndiaye which turned out to be a false hope.

Hecky, McCall and Lester have been given a hospital pass by the owners. I think they're really good at what they do but they're not magicians.

I hope I'm wrong and it turns out we have wizards on and off the field.

I really hope the manager is not made a scape goat if as we expect it goes tits up . The guy as been fighting with one arm tied behind his back .

 

[RossingtonBlade]

If we all see there is a problem, does management see there is a problem? Wilder never saw it and it cost him his job. Will Hecky?

I think Heckingbottom is well aware of the issues. Which is why he said he thinks we will stay up if he gets his targets in. To summarise, with this current squad the answer is no.

 

[bonobo]

Hecky did change our formation a number of times last season, also for spells during games. Here's one example with the same front five as you mentioned, but in a 5-2-2-1 (3-4-2-1) formation. I agree that all formations can work, but it's dependent on the players selected, the opposition and loads of other variables, meaning tweaks are sometimes required to give the team a better chance.

View attachment 167338

I think this is formation he likes, although I am not sure he would go with two inside forwards as attacking as Ndiaye and McAtee in the Prem, perhaps a Slimane or Palmer would be used, who would be better suited to dropping deep and giving us a midfield 3 when we need it. Last time in the Prem, he had McGoldrick and Osborn behind the striker, who were both good defenders, both pressed hard and would naturally drop deeper into midfield. I think Berge actually played on the left of Doyle with more license to go forward and I imagine that would be the same if we signed Souza. It was also notable that he inverted Ndiaye and McAtee for that run in, the big difference tactically for me between Hecky and Wilder, is that we really don't use width with Hecky, everything is between the boxes. He was much more interested in Ndiaye and McAtee having better shooting angles than the ability to create chances. Before that Ndiaye had a long run, where he had a lot of assists cutting balls back from the right, but his goals had dried up. Akpom is one who also likes to drive through middle, the same with Tilman, another target, whoever we end up I think will of the profile. Hecky has done a lot of work with all the forwards in being more direct and getting into better positions, but I have difficulty seeing is how we are really going to create chances in the Prem, or get these aggressive ball carrying players he seems to like into positions they can do damage against top class defences.

 

[LurkerBlade]

I would add, the 2 counter attack goals we had pushed way more players forward than I would expect us to in the Prem?

3rd goal was good but should have been defended against better.

Like most have said, the bad defending can be fixed, the weak press is a worry and need additional players.