CONFIRMED Louie Marsh signs another new contract and loaned to Fleetwood Town

[ATL Recs]

Always frustrates that SUFC appear afraid of blooding youngsters to any great extent in favour of sticking with the "old guard" although granted that will probably change when a few leave this summer.

Our 18/19 year olds are always a "work in progress" when many other Champ and Prem clubs have a few of the same age regularly starting.

There's that old saying if they are good enough, they are old enough!

Maybe that’s because the other clubs 18/19 year old are at a better level

 

[Berkshire Blade]

The gap between the youth level and men's is gigantic. Osula looks far far too good at that level and yet in the men's side he's just a prospect with good moments

 

[CaptainMorgans]

Numerically we may need some or all of these unless we have a summer of transfers beyond our expectations

God help us if we need any of them.

 

[Torrix1889]

How many 18/19 year olds are regulars, starting every game for championship clubs. Especially ones where literally every result of vital. It’s not many.

We can criticise the blades for lots of things but I’m not sure youth development is one.

Our academy has developed Maguire, naughton, Walker, Lawton, tonge, Jagielka, brooks, DCL, ramsdale. That’s more England internationals than most PL academies have produced.

We’ve the likes of jebbo, osula, Ndaiye (I know he’s older), arblaster coming through. Hecky has thrown loads on young players in and given them debuts - something wilder never was bothered about.

We’ve a PL squad they need to be great to be getting regular minutes. If we’d a fantastic young left back I’m sure he’d have been playing over stevens for example.

I'm not criticizing our youth development at all, it is quite obvious we have one of the best Cat 2 academies in the country, although having said that without exception we sell most of our better youth players and don't see much benefit ourselves, so maybe we are just a great feeder academy for other clubs....

My point was that we have tended to stick with the old guard instead of youth, Hecky might be adept in bringing talent through, (certainly compared to Wilder) but it took him 2/3rds of the season to realise we were better with 20 year old James McAtee and 21 year old Tommy Doyle in the side than the likes of Norwood and Fleck....

 

[FriethBlade]

The gap between the youth level and men's is gigantic. Osula looks far far too good at that level and yet in the men's side he's just a prospect with good moments

Berkshire I totally agree but what I think some are saying is once we were guaranteed promotion and had 3 games left why not give Jebbo or Osula plenty of minutes to give them more experience?

 

[Snowflake]

God help us if we need any of them.

To create a squad of 23+ we will need them, we cannot be expected to sign 10 or more.
However I would be delighted to see a dozen quality players arrive and be happy to acknowledge ( for the first time in my life) that I have got something wrong !!

 

[AWetFlannel]

I'm not criticizing our youth development at all, it is quite obvious we have one of the best Cat 2 academies in the country, although having said that without exception we sell most of our better youth players and don't see much benefit ourselves, so maybe we are just a great feeder academy for other clubs....

My point was that we have tended to stick with the old guard instead of youth, Hecky might be adept in bringing talent through, (certainly compared to Wilder) but it took him 2/3rds of the season to realise we were better with 20 year old James McAtee and 21 year old Tommy Doyle in the side than the likes of Norwood and Fleck....

It took him 2/3rds of the season to start Doyle and McAtee regularly because at the start of the season they weren't part of our best team.
McAtee was poor before the world cup, and Norwood was playing brilliantly.

Even Wilder played youth when they were ready. Brooks didn't fit the system at all, but still got played by Wilder. This season Jebbo has been injured and suspended loads, meaning Sharp got games. Osula didn't really do much on loan in league 1, he was never going to come in and start regularly at the top of the Championship ahead of our captain.

 

[Bladeinleeds]

I'm not criticizing our youth development at all, it is quite obvious we have one of the best Cat 2 academies in the country, although having said that without exception we sell most of our better youth players and don't see much benefit ourselves, so maybe we are just a great feeder academy for other clubs....

My point was that we have tended to stick with the old guard instead of youth, Hecky might be adept in bringing talent through, (certainly compared to Wilder) but it took him 2/3rds of the season to realise we were better with 20 year old James McAtee and 21 year old Tommy Doyle in the side than the likes of Norwood and Fleck....

Totally agree on selling young players too soon. Think the Prince might have held on to some unlike McCabe.

Playing devils advocate here though.

It probably took Doyle / mcatee (certainly) half a season to get to grips with the mens game. We needed to win every game pretty much.

Norwood was inarguably one of the best midfielders in the league for 3/4 of the season.

Mcatee started slowly and Doyle / arblaster were injured for large chunks of the season too. Mcatee started more than half of our league games (I think) by the end of the seasons, it’s not bad going for someone experiencing thier first taste of football. Suspect it’s more than delap did in similar circumstances

 

[Bladeinleeds]

Berkshire I totally agree but what I think some are saying is once we were guaranteed promotion and had 3 games left why not give Jebbo or Osula plenty of minutes to give them more experience?

Have we memory holed the fact than jebbo started one of the final 3 and got 30+ minutes in another

And osula got 30+ minutes in the last game?

These aren’t inconsequential minutes for young players.

 

[Frank the tank]

Can't agree with this sentiment at all
We play kids when they are ready and not before

Our academy graduates include
Ramsdale
Walker
Maguire
Naughton
Brooks
Calvert lewin
Ndiaye

And have jebbo ,osula next on the production line

 

[FriethBlade]

Have we memory holed the fact than jebbo started one of the final 3 and got 30+ minutes in another

And osula got 30+ minutes in the last game?

These aren’t inconsequential minutes for young players.

No we haven't but it's hard enough for experienced strikers to hit form with bit part appearances. Whichever of the two Hecky thought was most ready could have had 3 full games to see what they have got.

Now we go into the premier league none the wiser. Do we loan them out? Do we keep them ? If we keep them, if they weren't ready for the championship how are they ready for the Premier league?

No right answer to any of this but what was the point in starting Sharp v Preston if we knew he wasn't been offered new terms?

 

[Frank the tank]

No we haven't but it's hard enough for experienced strikers to hit form with bit part appearances. Whichever of the two Hecky thought was most ready could have had 3 full games to see what they have got.

Now we go into the premier league none the wiser. Do we loan them out? Do we keep them ? If we keep them, if they weren't ready for the championship how are they ready for the Premier league?

No right answer to any of this but what was the point in starting Sharp v Preston if we knew he wasn't been offered new terms?

To break the goal scoring record

 

[Bladeinleeds]

No we haven't but it's hard enough for experienced strikers to hit form with bit part appearances. Whichever of the two Hecky thought was most ready could have had 3 full games to see what they have got.

Now we go into the premier league none the wiser. Do we loan them out? Do we keep them ? If we keep them, if they weren't ready for the championship how are they ready for the Premier league?

No right answer to any of this but what was the point in starting Sharp v Preston if we knew he wasn't been offered new terms?

I don’t disagree totally

But hecky will see them 365 days a year in training etc and be able to assess the situation.

I believe we’ll keep one in the squad and loan one. Jebbo feels further ahead to me.

In terms of starts There are other considerations too - mcburnie playing his way back into some form, sharp scoring the final goal for the club etc (wether you agree with this sentimentality or not). Ndaiye keeping his record of playing every game and deserving it.

If these players really are the future it’s about grabbing the limited opportunities and making themselves undroppable- like Ndaiye did.

In fairness to both they showed some flashes of talent in their appearances - potentially enough of a spark for hecky to keep them around and not sign a striker.

 

[nopigfansintown]

It took him 2/3rds of the season to start Doyle and McAtee regularly because at the start of the season they weren't part of our best team.
McAtee was poor before the world cup, and Norwood was playing brilliantly.

Even Wilder played youth when they were ready. Brooks didn't fit the system at all, but still got played by Wilder. This season Jebbo has been injured and suspended loads, meaning Sharp got games. Osula didn't really do much on loan in league 1, he was never going to come in and start regularly at the top of the Championship ahead of our captain.

It's a myth that Wilder didn't play the youth. Ramsdale, DCL, Gordon, Slater, Adams, Brooks etc were all put in by Wilder. The likes of RND was talked up as big prospects for the future.The best were sold to fund the rebuild and that was that. It's unlikely that you ever have more than a few that are ready at any one time.

The likes of Blackman, Henderson Dowell, O'Connell, Ramsdale (2nd time), Moose, Ampadu, Bryan, Bogle etc were all brought in by Wilder and all played significant roles. It goes without saying that the higher up the pyramid you go the harder it is to blood youth.

 

[FriethBlade]

To break the goal scoring record

Sentiment

 

[nopigfansintown]

There isn't a youth player in the squad that deserved many more minutes in the SUFC first team this season imo. What they did deserve is loan spells outside of the club to aid their development. Unfortunately we were potless so no such luck.

The Man City lads were managed brilliantly imo. Mcattee was miles off but was developed physically and tactically really well. He went from boy to man here. There's no way he was ready for two or three games a week the other side of Christmas. In fact when Berge was injured neither Doyle nor Mcattee comprehensively took their chance. That came later...

Doyle was inconsistent at best and kept pulling up with calf issues. United were flying until October/November anyway and our midfield was steamrolling people. Norwood was on for player of the year before he was dropped. I think there's an argument for somebody taking Fleck's minutes. Maybe not when defending leads but when he made his starts. Sharp was often used for shutting down games late on which he did masterfully. Jebbo or Osula wouldn't be better suited for that role than Sharp imo. How many points did we drop when Sharp came on defending a lead?

 

[Bennyand the Blades]

One of the main reasons we love Football so much is anybody can be a great manager in his own head, and if it all goes tits up, so what, we can soon come up with another cunning plan , no problem.
But if your a manager for real and you carry the expectations of not only your boss but literally thousands of fanatical supporters who know where you live and what you look like and think all you do is stand at the side of a Football pitch and point, I think bloody good luck look to him, who ever he is.....

 

[finlaytheblade]

But we don't give them much of a chance though do we. Ndaiye is the exception but Jebbo, Osula, Arblaster, have all been in and around the first team but we insist on sticking with the Norwoods, Flecks and Sharps....even for cup games.

Think most would benefit from a loan next season as chances will probably be even more limited...

Do you think we would have got promotion with the young lads you mention,?
I don't and that's not because I don't rate them( we have some real quality coming through ) experience is vitally important when aspiring to win something.
In my opinion Marsh is pick of the bunch! he wasn't ready for the 1st team last season! needed time to grow into his adult body some lads don't need this time as physicallity can run with them having a growth spurt , Marsh isnt one of them he will benefit from the patience we have shown.
I expect him and others to be pushing harder this season! not the complete answer but will dovetail nicely into the squad.

 

[Lightsoot]

It's a myth that Wilder didn't play the youth. Ramsdale, DCL, Gordon, Slater, Adams, Brooks etc were all put in by Wilder. The likes of RND was talked up as big prospects for the future.The best were sold to fund the rebuild and that was that. It's unlikely that you ever have more than a few that are ready at any one time.

The likes of Blackman, Henderson Dowell, O'Connell, Ramsdale (2nd time), Moose, Ampadu, Bryan, Bogle etc were all brought in by Wilder and all played significant roles. It goes without saying that the higher up the pyramid you go the harder it is to blood youth.

That’s stretching it. Ramsdale, DCL & Adams. were flogged to fund the League 1 promotion push, which credit to Chris & the coaches for masterminding.

Did Slater ever feature under Wilder? He was shipped out on loan until he was ultimately sold. Only Brooks got any real chance, but that might have been different as he was due to go out on loan to Chesterfield.

 

[John Cutsbushes]

Always frustrates that SUFC appear afraid of blooding youngsters to any great extent in favour of sticking with the "old guard" although granted that will probably change when a few leave this summer.

Our 18/19 year olds are always a "work in progress" when many other Champ and Prem clubs have a few of the same age regularly starting.

There's that old saying if they are good enough, they are old enough!

Are you one of those who was clamouring for Gordon to start regularly at the back?
Sent back early from Boreham Wood
Leave the decision making to those who have actually seen and worked with these lads
Not one of our 21s is ready for Premier league football yet

 

[nopigfansintown]

That’s stretching it. Ramsdale, DCL & Adams. were flogged to fund the League 1 promotion push, which credit to Chris & the coaches for masterminding.

Did Slater ever feature under Wilder? He was shipped out on loan until he was ultimately sold. Only Brooks got any real chance, but that might have been different as he was due to go out on loan to Chesterfield.

Not really. They all featured in first team.games and were flogged before they could feature more. The exception being Slater who clearly had several better players in front of him.

 

[Frank the tank]

Sentiment

Yeah it was but that's why he played
Football is in the entertainment business and fans wanted to see the guy get that 250 th goal
He didn't and was hooked off for young jebbo who came on and did the business

 

[Torrix1889]

Are you one of those who was clamouring for Gordon to start regularly at the back?
Sent back early from Boreham Wood
Leave the decision making to those who have actually seen and worked with these lads
Not one of our 21s is ready for Premier league football yet

Good God no, was anyone actually clamouring for Gordon to start regularly?

 

[Bergen Blade]

Can't agree with this sentiment at all
We play kids when they are ready and not before

Our academy graduates include
Ramsdale
Walker
Maguire
Naughton
Brooks
Calvert lewin
Ndiaye

And have jebbo ,osula next on the production line

Looking at that list it seems like any youngster we do play become great, so maybe we should try it a bit more.

 

[robbiez666]

It's a myth that Wilder didn't play the youth. Ramsdale, DCL, Gordon, Slater, Adams, Brooks etc were all put in by Wilder. The likes of RND was talked up as big prospects for the future.The best were sold to fund the rebuild and that was that. It's unlikely that you ever have more than a few that are ready at any one time.

The likes of Blackman, Henderson Dowell, O'Connell, Ramsdale (2nd time), Moose, Ampadu, Bryan, Bogle etc were all brought in by Wilder and all played significant roles. It goes without saying that the higher up the pyramid you go the harder it is to blood youth.

That's a whole lot of bollocks. isn't it? My memory is terrible but that's entirely wrong?

Sold by Wilder. Didn't play until he re-signed him after he'd played a season in the Premier league
Sold by Wilder for £1.5 million after one appearance in the cup
Debut by Heckingbottom
Came on once as a sub
Signed by Clough
debut by Heckingbottom

 

[Lightsoot]

Not really. They all featured in first team.games and were flogged before they could feature more. The exception being Slater who clearly had several better players in front of him.

Can you just clear something up, who flogged them and how many times did he play them?

 

[nopigfansintown]

That's a whole lot of bollocks. isn't it? My memory is terrible but that's entirely wrong?

Sold by Wilder. Didn't play until he re-signed him after he'd played a season in the Premier league
Sold by Wilder for £1.5 million after one appearance in the cup
Debut by Heckingbottom
Came on once as a sub
Signed by Clough
debut by Heckingbottom

DCL started pre season games and was then sold. Ramsdale played in the Cup and featured on the bench. Slater featured in pre season and cup games and simply wasn't goid enough to warrant more minutes. Brooks was played by Wilder. The one I'm wrong on is Gordon. My instinct told me it was Wilder that gave him his first run.out but it was probably a different player. There was also a young forward given his head by Wilder whose name escapes me.

It's a total myth. A falsehood oft repeated is still a falsehood. I think I've more than demonstrated that. The reason the better academy graduates didn't play more is really simple: they were sold to fund the club


Adams was still a young player when he played prior to his sale. The claim is that Wilder didn't play young players, not that he didn't play our young academy players or the young players he signed. Baldock could possibly be added to the list, although 24 might be pushing 'young'.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Can you just clear something up, who flogged them and how many times did he play them?

The board. Sheffield United sold there saleable assets because they needed money. They gave a small slice of it to Chris Wilder, put the rest of it towards operating costs and he gave them two promotions. He used that bit of money to sign and develop quality young talent. I trust that's cleared that up....

 

[Lightsoot]

The board. Sheffield United sold their saleable assets because they needed money. They gave a small slice of it to Chris Wilder, put the rest of it towards operating costs and he gave them two promotions. He used that bit of money to sign and develop quality young talent. I trust that's cleared that up....

Fuck me. Just because you say it, doesn’t make it gospel, especially when you’re talking out of your rear.

Which young talent did Wilder SIGN and DEVELOP and give first-team opportunities too?

Quick, quick. I want to get my BBQ on instead of entertaining your shite.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Fuck me. Just because you say it, doesn’t make it gospel, especially when you’re talking out of your rear.

Which young talent did Wilder SIGN and DEVELOP and give first-team opportunities too?

Quick, quick. I want to get my BBQ on instead of entertaining your shite.

It's in the club accounts - it's not me saying it. Where else would the money have come from? I'm all ears...

I'll repeat myself: O'connell, Henderson, Blackman, Brooks, Dowell, Ampadu, Ramsdale, Baldock, Bryan, Bogle

You've lost the argument and have had to resort to ad hominem and other unnecessary nonsense. Post not poster.

Edit: Add Lundstram. 23 when signed.