pigeon hole me!

[mekkyblade]

I dont post on here very often but i read posts everyday and it seems that people get put into one of two pigeon holes. Number one: the blindly optimistic. Number two: the eternally pessimistic. I like to think that i dont fall into either of these categories but as much as possible try to keep looking at things reallistically and at the moment i absolutely fear the worst as far as our promotion hopes go. If people want to put me in pigeon hole number two then thats up to them but the fact of the matter is our team and dare i say it our manager are falling short of the mark and before people start ramming it down my throat that we are in second place in the league, we wouldnt b there had ched not scored a bag full of goals this season, without him it would be a very different story, we have no decent back up for our first team players no pace out wide and whilst kmac is out no decent football players with the exception of young lowton. i genuinely fear the worst for tomoro night and wednesday are in fine goalscoring form and picking up valuable points home and away and seemingly more ambitious as far as there signings (whether loan or permanent). you can say what you want about mandaric sacking megson but it just shows his determination to go up this season. I am not saying sack wilson before the burning torches and pitchforks emerge, all i know is something needs to happen and fast before we blow it! I await the angry mob..... and ollie.

 

[JohnDenver]

I'm not going anywhere near your pigeon hole, fella.

 

[blade too long]

owls scoring freely away, strange perception , on their winning run of 1 away win on the trot from home

wednesdays been free scoring v bury and bournemouth who are bottom and next to bottom of league 1 form table
free scoring wednesday are behind us as ,yes youve guessed it , weve scored more goals
, theres 9 games each left
we have 2 v top 10 teams left
wednesday have 6

they in the last 10 have played 7 bottom half teams we have played 5
and still we are above them

 

[oldblade]

I dont post on here very often but i read posts everyday and it seems that people get put into one of two pigeon holes. Number one: the blindly optimistic. Number two: the eternally pessimistic. I like to think that i dont fall into either of these categories but as much as possible try to keep looking at things reallistically and at the moment i absolutely fear the worst as far as our promotion hopes go. If people want to put me in pigeon hole number two then thats up to them but the fact of the matter is our team and dare i say it our manager are falling short of the mark and before people start ramming it down my throat that we are in second place in the league, we wouldnt b there had ched not scored a bag full of goals this season, without him it would be a very different story, we have no decent back up for our first team players no pace out wide and whilst kmac is out no decent football players with the exception of young lowton. i genuinely fear the worst for tomoro night and wednesday are in fine goalscoring form and picking up valuable points home and away and seemingly more ambitious as far as there signings (whether loan or permanent). you can say what you want about mandaric sacking megson but it just shows his determination to go up this season. I am not saying sack wilson before the burning torches and pitchforks emerge, all i know is something needs to happen and fast before we blow it! I await the angry mob..... and ollie.

I think most people fall somewhere in-between total pessimism and total optimism.

With regard to Evans, I would say that the last three full time managers that we had before Danny Wilson all failed to get him scoring freely. In fact many on this forum felt he had very little to offer. The change may in part be due to the fact we are now playing in a lower division, but I also feel that our style of play suits him better and he is playing to his strengths. Wilso must be partly responsible for that.

The failure to bring in other players - is that Wilson's fault? I don't know. For all we know he may have asked for other signings and been refused.

 

[davidpinder]

I think most people fall somewhere in-between total pessimism and total optimism.

With regard to Evans, I would say that the last three full time managers that we had before Danny Wilson all failed to get him scoring freely. In fact many on this forum felt he had very little to offer. The change may in part be due to the fact we are now playing in a lower division, but I also feel that our style of play suits him better and he is playing to his strengths. Wilso must be partly responsible for that.

The failure to bring in other players - is that Wilson's fault? I don't know. For all we know he may have asked for other signings and been refused.

is wilson not the only manager to try in league 1?? i would also guess that most of cheds goals have come against bad defences? (without checking exactly) ched has far from paid back his BIG wages and transfer fee not to mention a pending court case. If we don't go up wilson imo has failed, all the good football and getting the better out of players (ched, wilo, collins) will mean nothing if we are off to brentford again next season.

---------- Post added at 07:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 PM ----------

I dont post on here very often but i read posts everyday and it seems that people get put into one of two pigeon holes. Number one: the blindly optimistic. Number two: the eternally pessimistic. I like to think that i dont fall into either of these categories but as much as possible try to keep looking at things reallistically and at the moment i absolutely fear the worst as far as our promotion hopes go. If people want to put me in pigeon hole number two then thats up to them but the fact of the matter is our team and dare i say it our manager are falling short of the mark and before people start ramming it down my throat that we are in second place in the league, we wouldnt b there had ched not scored a bag full of goals this season, without him it would be a very different story, we have no decent back up for our first team players no pace out wide and whilst kmac is out no decent football players with the exception of young lowton. i genuinely fear the worst for tomoro night and wednesday are in fine goalscoring form and picking up valuable points home and away and seemingly more ambitious as far as there signings (whether loan or permanent). you can say what you want about mandaric sacking megson but it just shows his determination to go up this season. I am not saying sack wilson before the burning torches and pitchforks emerge, all i know is something needs to happen and fast before we blow it! I await the angry mob..... and ollie.

agree with most of what you are saying but as for taking cheds goals out and saying it would be a different story, well you could say that about Charlton (wright-philips) udders (rhodes) all top teams normally have a 20 goal man.

 

[mekkyblade]

is wilson not the only manager to try in league 1?? i would also guess that most of cheds goals have come against bad defences? (without checking exactly) ched has far from paid back his BIG wages and transfer fee not to mention a pending court case. If we don't go up wilson imo has failed, all the good football and getting the better out of players (ched, wilo, collins) will mean nothing if we are off to brentford again next season.

---------- Post added at 07:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 PM ----------



agree with most of what you are saying but as for taking cheds goals out and saying it would be a different story, well you could say that about Charlton (wright-philips) udders (rhodes) all top teams normally have a 20 goal man.

thats a fair point but we have no plan b when passing it around isnt working its all well and good passing it sideways but if we dont get promotion it counts for nothing

 

[oldblade]

is wilson not the only manager to try in league 1?? i would also guess that most of cheds goals have come against bad defences? (without checking exactly) ched has far from paid back his BIG wages and transfer fee not to mention a pending court case. If we don't go up wilson imo has failed, all the good football and getting the better out of players (ched, wilo, collins) will mean nothing if we are off to brentford again next season.

I believe I said that the change may in part be due to the fact that we are now in a lower division.

But even allowing for that, the transformation has been pretty spectacular. His strike rate is now around 80%!! A drop in division is not the only thing that accounts for that. Management and the way the team now plays also play their part and that is down to Wilson as well as the player himself.

Evans maybe on a big wage. That is the fault of people other than Wilson. But all Evans can do to give us value for that wage is score goals and set up goals. He is doing both at the moment. There is nothing more that he can do. The fact that we are not clear of the chasing pack is more down to the indescretions of others against Oldham. What happened in that match probably cost us six points. And I don't think Wilson can be held responsible for that either.

It seems to me Evans can't win. If he doesn't score he's rubbish, if he does score it's down to bad defences. And even when he is scoring for fun he has still far from paid back his high wage. Still I suppose Montgomery's gone now so the sharks are circling for a fresh victim.

If we don't go up, will he have failed? Maybe. If Micky Adams had remained in charge do you think we'd be anywhere near an automatic place? Many thought we would struggle to be mid table this season. In that context he will have been successful whether or not we go up.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

It seems to me Evans can't win. If he doesn't score he's rubbish, if he does score it's down to bad defences. And even when he is scoring for fun he has still far from paid back his high wage. Still I suppose Montgomery's gone now so the sharks are circling for a fresh victim.

He could have scored a few last season and helped to prevent our relegation.

It's like people keep saying, this is only League One.

 

[oldblade]

He could have scored a few last season and helped to prevent our relegation.

It's like people keep saying, this is only League One.

I know you're joking (in part anyway!). But if we'd had Wilson as our manager last season, maybe he would have scored more.

Billy Sharp was scoring for fun at Scunthorpe, but came here and was played differently - seemed to be on the wing most of the time. Result. A less than impressive strike rate. leaves here for Doncaster, different manager, played as a central striker. Hey presto, starts scoring again.

 

[davidpinder]

He could have scored a few last season and helped to prevent our relegation.

It's like people keep saying, this is only League One.

exactly i would like a statto amongst us to give us a break down of evans goals and see how many were against "better" sides. Don't get me wrong he has scored lots of goals and we have needed them but if we do go up i would like to see him again in the championship if he is still playing of course.

 

[oldblade]

exactly i would like a statto amongst us to give us a break down of evans goals and see how many were against "better" sides. Don't get me wrong he has scored lots of goals and we have needed them but if we do go up i would like to see him again in the championship if he is still playing of course.

This is now getting ridiculous. Not only does he have to score, but his goals are only worth something if he scores against particular sides! Is it the same for assists, because he's got quite a few of those as well.

Who are the better sides? I thought they were all rubbish in this league. Are Wednesday any good? He's scored against them. Are Colchester any good? He's scored against them. Are Stevenage any good? He's scored against them. Are Carlisle any good? He's scored 3 against them. What about Brentford? He's scored against them. What about Rochdale? They're rubbish aren't they, although they did manage a draw at The Valley against the Brazilians of this league. Well Evans scored twice as many goals against them than the whole Charlton team could manage.

Is a side's worth measured by their league position now, or league position when we actually played them, or form over the last 6, 8, 10 (pick a number) games?

 

[grafikhaus]

is wilson not the only manager to try in league 1?? i would also guess that most of cheds goals have come against bad defences? (without checking exactly) ched has far from paid back his BIG wages and transfer fee not to mention a pending court case. If we don't go up wilson imo has failed, all the good football and getting the better out of players (ched, wilo, collins) will mean nothing if we are off to brentford again next season.

But then...

agree with most of what you are saying but as for taking cheds goals out and saying it would be a different story, well you could say that about Charlton (wright-philips) udders (rhodes) all top teams normally have a 20 goal man.

Christ! Make you mind up. This just sums (some) Unitedites up. We've finally got a guy scoring the goals a serious promotion challenge needs and we have this nonsense.

Ched missed all of August and, whatever the outcome, the court case must be weighing heavily on him. He's done fantastically well. Do people always have to have a scapegoat? (Look out, Quinny now Monty's gone).

Now if we had a violent, drunken thug who has scored 2/3 as many as Ched, we could call him 'The Goal Machine'

 

[davidpinder]

But then...



Christ! Make you mind up. This just sums (some) Unitedites up. We've finally got a guy scoring the goals a serious promotion challenge needs and we have this nonsense.

Ched missed all of August and, whatever the outcome, the court case must be weighing heavily on him. He's done fantastically well. Do people always have to have a scapegoat? (Look out, Quinny now Monty's gone).

Now if we had a violent, drunken thug who has scored 2/3 as many as Ched, we could call him 'The Goal Machine'

I was simply making the point that most teams fighting to go up have a player on 20 goals ours is ched. The other point i was trying to make was when we seem to "need" a goal (charlton, swillsborough) he doesn't seem to find one, it tends to be against lesser/average teams (colchester, chesterfield etc etc). It is not a case of making my mind up it was 2 separate points. He (20k+ a week) is managing to score goals in league one thats not a massive achievement if he score lots next season IF that is in the championship and IF he is not serving at her majesties pleasure then yes we have finally found someone to score lots of goals.

 

[oldblade]

I was simply making the point that most teams fighting to go up have a player on 20 goals ours is ched. The other point i was trying to make was when we seem to "need" a goal (charlton, swillsborough) he doesn't seem to find one, it tends to be against lesser/average teams (colchester, chesterfield etc etc). It is not a case of making my mind up it was 2 separate points. He (20k+ a week) is managing to score goals in league one thats not a massive achievement if he score lots next season IF that is in the championship and IF he is not serving at her majesties pleasure then yes we have finally found someone to score lots of goals.

And there was me thinking that we actually really need ALL the goals he scores. To mention just three recent matches, would we have beaten Preston without his two goals? We didn't need those at all did we when we were a goal down. And without his goal against Tranmere (only 6 sides have conceded fewer than them) we would have got all of no points. I seem to remember him getting us back in the game twice against Walsall when we needed it with a set up and a goal. The fact that the defence let in three is hardly his fault. And I'd point out that although near the bottom, only 5 teams have conceded fewer goals than Walsall so far this season.

Stevenage is another (earlier) case in point. Only Charlton have conceded fewer goals than them, but Evans still scored an equaliser against them in spite of only playing about half an hour. And he didn't give the late penalty away that lost us the game.

One of the teams you mention is Chesterfield. Didn't we beat them with a goal from Evans late in the game when we really needed it?!

In an earlier post on this thread you say that he has not paid back his large salary. Well, the only way he can really do that is by scoring goals himself or by creating goal opportunities for others to score. This season he is doing both of those things. But it seems that is not good enough as it's only in league one! Now I may be mistaken, but I thought league one was where we were, so it's the only place he can score his goals!

I would have thought that 20 goals from 24 starts was good enough to warrant praise from anyone. Clearly not and he must do better. Unbelievable.

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

From where I sit mekky, you arent being pessimistic you're panicking but you arent alone. Cant say I share the same anxiety, always thought we would be caught up so its come as no shock to me. Confident we would finish 2nd though and I still believe we will.

As for Ched's goals, you cant be sure that we wouldnt have scored them without him anyway. Perhaps someone else would have stepped up to the mark with a run in the side. That's not to take any credit away from Ched who has been excellent.

As Mr Pinder points out above, Charlton would arguably be nowhere without Wright-Phillips, Huddersfield would arguably be nowhere without Rhodes. For Arsenal see Van Persie, I could go on. Tis all imponderable anyway.

 

[davidpinder]

And there was me thinking that we actually really need ALL the goals he scores. To mention just three recent matches, would we have beaten Preston without his two goals? We didn't need those at all did we when we were a goal down. And without his goal against Tranmere (only 6 sides have conceded fewer than them) we would have got all of no points. I seem to remember him getting us back in the game twice against Walsall when we needed it with a set up and a goal. The fact that the defence let in three is hardly his fault. And I'd point out that although near the bottom, only 5 teams have conceded fewer goals than Walsall so far this season.

Stevenage is another (earlier) case in point. Only Charlton have conceded fewer goals than them, but Evans still scored an equaliser against them in spite of only playing about half an hour. And he didn't give the late penalty away that lost us the game.

One of the teams you mention is Chesterfield. Didn't we beat them with a goal from Evans late in the game when we really needed it?!

In an earlier post on this thread you say that he has not paid back his large salary. Well, the only way he can really do that is by scoring goals himself or by creating goal opportunities for others to score. This season he is doing both of those things. But it seems that is not good enough as it's only in league one! Now I may be mistaken, but I thought league one was where we were, so it's the only place he can score his goals!

I would have thought that 20 goals from 24 starts was good enough to warrant praise from anyone. Clearly not and he must do better. Unbelievable.

Hang on i haven't asked for better and i am pleased with his goals this season but this is league 1 not the championship you are talking about teams like walsall, stevenage i mean who are they exactly?? he is on a massive salary and no i don't believe he has paid back his big wage and big transfer fee yet and like i keep saying if he plays for us next season and it is in the championship and he scores goals then yeah he will have paid us back. I was just making a point that in the big games against the top teams he seems to struggle just a point made nothing else not having a go at him in any way simply making a point.

 

[oldblade]

Hang on i haven't asked for better and i am pleased with his goals this season but this is league 1 not the championship you are talking about teams like walsall, stevenage i mean who are they exactly?? he is on a massive salary and no i don't believe he has paid back his big wage and big transfer fee yet and like i keep saying if he plays for us next season and it is in the championship and he scores goals then yeah he will have paid us back. I was just making a point that in the big games against the top teams he seems to struggle just a point made nothing else not having a go at him in any way simply making a point.

There you go again trying to diminish his achievements. Only league one, not championship. Yes, but that's where we are. That is the only place he can score his goals and he is doing just that.

Also, you conveniently belittle the opposition. Who are Stevenage? They are a team at the top end of the table. A team that have only conceded only 33 goals all season. Less than a goal per game. Better goals against ratio than anyone in the division except Charlton. But Evans scored against them and was only on the pitch for about a third of the game.

In your previous post you claimed he never scores when we need him to do so. I beg to differ. All his goals are needed and many of them have won games or saved games on their own.

As for his wages, you have no idea how much he is on any more than I do. £20,000 a week? Where do you get that from. Has McCabe told you. I suspect he is probably one of our top earners, but to say he's on £20,000 a week is a pure guess. But whatever he is on, he can only 'pay it back' by scoring and assisting others to do the same. He is doing both in abundance at the moment.