COVID Passport

[Harrisblade]

I'll have had both vaccines by the time season starts. I don't agree with covid passports. It is people right to not have to have the vax, or be unduly coerced into having it.
As a society, I don't see what we gain from forcing people who don't want one into it. Hospitalisations and deaths are down to next to nothing, that was always the target, and it's been achieved. No need for further enforcements.

I'll have had both vaccines by the time season starts. I don't agree with covid passports. It is people right to not have to have the vax, or be unduly coerced into having it.
As a society, I don't see what we gain from forcing people who don't want one into it. Hospitalisations and deaths are down to next to nothing, that was always the target, and it's been achieved. No need for further enforcements.

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[wizadry]

Can someone answer me this very short and simple question. If someone hasn’t got Covid why shouldn’t they be allowed into any event or whatever just because they haven’t been jabbed?

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

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I don't know how likely that is tbh. But either way that is going to be happening worldwide and those variants will come here. That's a fact of life for the future.
We may have to deal with a new variant or we may not. We can't build society on negative what ifs.

 

[Oldun]

Can someone answer me this very short and simple question. If someone hasn’t got Covid why shouldn’t they be allowed into any event or whatever just because they haven’t been jabbed?

How do you know they haven’t got Covid?

 

[wizadry]

I don't know how likely that is tbh. But either way that is going to be happening worldwide and those variants will come here. That's a fact of life for the future.
We may have to deal with a new variant or we may not. We can't build society on negative what ifs.

Plus, they’re saying testing is no longer going to be required to get in any large sized events, only a passport to prove you’ve been double jabbed, nobody will know how many people had Covid when entering the event, how to stop it spreading and mutating as another variant or not because testing isn’t required for such events.

They’re using the excuse of needing to be jabbed to stop this from happening when you can catch it and spread it regardless of the vaccine, you couldn’t make it up. They’re fear mongering and pushing the blame onto the public for their shambles of dealing with it all.

 

[wizadry]

How do you know they haven’t got Covid?

Not sure if that’s a serious question but testing them before hand perhaps?

 

[wizadry]

How do you know they haven’t got Covid?

How are you going to know if a double jabbed person hasn’t got it?

 

[Snowflake]

No one should belive WHO they are the most corrupt organisation going.

I think the Mafia might take exception to that statement !!

 

[McGoaldrick]

Plus, they’re saying testing is no longer going to be required to get in any large sized events, only a passport to prove you’ve been double jabbed, nobody will know how many people had Covid when entering the event, how to stop it spreading and mutating as another variant or not because testing isn’t required for such events.

They’re using the excuse of needing to be jabbed to stop this from happening when you can catch it and spread it regardless of the vaccine, you couldn’t make it up. They’re fear mongering and pushing the blame onto the public for their shambles of dealing with it all.

All this after claiming that the trial events which involved testing were a success. The club/festival type ones in liverpool were all young, presumably unvaccinated individuals

 

[Oldun]

How are you going to know if a double jabbed person hasn’t got it?

So are you going to test everyone everyday? The point of the vaccine is that is significantly reduces both catching it and passing it on. The more people who are vaccinated the less it spreads. What are the other options? Keep going as we are isolating and then coming out again? Or wait until everyone is either dead or has natural immunity? Natural immunity doesn’t last forever so we are in a perpetual cycle - unless it mutates into a more deadly strain.

 

[Westran]

It's worth remembering, and adding to this discussion, that there is a small population of people that have severe health conditions and cannot have the vaccine, therefore the more people out there who are not vaccinated, the bigger risk of them catching it.

There are some, particular those recovering fro cancer or some organ diseases like liver, pancreas etc that catching covid is essentially a death sentence for them.

I know there's been a lot of discussion about collective society level risk, but would any of you be comfortable consigning someone to either a life completely indoors, forever on edge, or an extremely heightened risk of death if you choose to go out and live normally?

That's the public health issue we face, even if hospitalisations and deaths are low.

 

[jt64]

It's worth remembering, and adding to this discussion, that there is a small population of people that have severe health conditions and cannot have the vaccine, therefore the more people out there who are not vaccinated, the bigger risk of them catching it.

There are some, particular those recovering fro cancer or some organ diseases like liver, pancreas etc that catching covid is essentially a death sentence for them.

Did we force the entire population to be vaccinated against influenza in 2019 to protect them?

 

[McGoaldrick]

It's worth remembering, and adding to this discussion, that there is a small population of people that have severe health conditions and cannot have the vaccine, therefore the more people out there who are not vaccinated, the bigger risk of them catching it.

There are some, particular those recovering fro cancer or some organ diseases like liver, pancreas etc that catching covid is essentially a death sentence for them.

I know there's been a lot of discussion about collective society level risk, but would any of you be comfortable consigning someone to either a life completely indoors, forever on edge, or an extremely heightened risk of death if you choose to go out and live normally?

That's the public health issue we face, even if hospitalisations and deaths are low.

Absolutely fair point, but as noted testing can offer benefits as well as vaccination. One thing that is overlooked is that we have tolerated around 30,000 deaths a year from flu and pneumonia, and often it will be people that fit the above description that die from those. In the most sensitive way possible, we cannot exist in a society where we have zero deaths from respiratory diseases forever.

 

[jt64]

Right.
Those of you who have made the free choice not to have the vaccine. And are worried the need for a Covid Passport may exclude you from nightclubs, pubs and/or football grounds.
I'm happy to help you in any way I can. So, specifically, what do you want those of us who have chosen the vaccine to do to help?

Write to your MP and tell him/her to back off with discriminatory East German style bullshit. Either that, or go forward in time to give me a better idea of long term side effects of said vaccine. And who's going to win the next National while you're at it.

 

[wizadry]

So are you going to test everyone everyday? The point of the vaccine is that is significantly reduces both catching it and passing it on. The more people who are vaccinated the less it spreads. What are the other options? Keep going as we are isolating and then coming out again? Or wait until everyone is either dead or has natural immunity? Natural immunity doesn’t last forever so we are in a perpetual cycle - unless it mutates into a more deadly strain.

No, just test people who want to go to an event for 3 days consecutively before it or something? Look, I don’t know the answers but you can’t just stop people from going to events that don’t want something pumped into their body for whatever reason, you can’t.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Write to your MP and tell him/her to back off with discriminatory East German style bullshit. Either that, or go forward in time to give me a better idea of long term side effects of said vaccine. And who's going to win the next National while you're at it.

Have you already done that? I'm loathe to use that argument as it's just more of the same extreme finger pointing that I'm against. If the people who aren't vaxxed & are against the Vax Pass want my help, then - I'm pleading - make an argument that someone in my position can get behind.

 

[Bladesman]

Vaccination proof may be required to attend sports events of about 20,000 or more capacity

Fans may be required to show proof of full vaccination to attend sports venues with capacities of about 20,000 or more by the end of September.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Westran]

Did we force the entire population to be vaccinated against influenza in 2019 to protect them?

And what point can you make to me to prove that's a reasonable argument to not try and vaccinate as much of the population as possible? Consider that I talk to public health professionals, virologists and immunologists daily, who all think we need to vaccinate as many people as we can, quickly, to stop this getting out of control again.

 

[247Blade]

I wasn't quoting their effectiveness because I personally think they are a bad test and no test is better than a bad one .but the government uses them

Government ... I'd use that word very loosely ... bloody shames

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Can someone answer me this very short and simple question. If someone hasn’t got Covid why shouldn’t they be allowed into any event or whatever just because they haven’t been jabbed?

I'm not answering for myself, for what I think. I'm answering with the argument in the hope it helps.
The argument goes .... vaccinated people at the event are less likely than the unvaccinated to transmit Covid to other people at the event. In turn, any vaccinated person at the event is less likely than the unvaccinated to catch Covid at the event. And, if they do catch Covid at the event, the vaccinated are less likely to develop serious symptoms & require hospitalisation.

Less likely to transmit. Less likely to catch it. Less likely to become seriously ill. Less likely.....

Lateral flow tests have a known false negative problem.
PCR tests have a delay problem - they have to go to a Lab.
True - testing also reduces the risk. But it is not without it's problems.

 

[jt64]

Have you already done that? I'm loathe to use that argument as it's just more of the same extreme finger pointing that I'm against. If the people who aren't vaxxed & are against the Vax Pass want my help, then - I'm pleading - make an argument that someone in my position can get behind.

I have already written to my MP, yes, over the weekend when they were just murmuring about it. Not that I expect a positive reply given his previous record. I'm sure you can see it as consistent to be pro vax, and pro bodily autonomy and pro health privacy at the same time. I have a pretty good idea of what'll happen if I were to catch the disease. The cure, not so much

And what point can you make to me to prove that's a reasonable argument to not try and vaccinate as much of the population as possible? Consider that I talk to public health professionals, virologists and immunologists daily, who all think we need to vaccinate as many people as we can, quickly, to stop this getting out of control again.

We should certainly offer the vaccine. We shouldn't coerce the taking of it. Everyone apart from those at an infinitesimal risk from Covid has been offered a vaccine, the vast majority have had two. Having it "run out of control" right now at the exact opposite of respiratory virus season when the NHS is at its lightest load, particularly amongst the young who are extremely unlikely to utilise the NHS if they were to contact it, is not a major problem. It will help protect everyone.

Sure, there'll be some people with immunodeficiencies that can't take the vaccine. Flu is likely very dangerous to them, as are lots of things. Which goes back to my previous post.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Can someone answer me this very short and simple question. If someone hasn’t got Covid why shouldn’t they be allowed into any event or whatever just because they haven’t been jabbed?

Sorry. I've not done you justice with my first reply.
The very specific argument is ..... There are some practical difficulties assessing how likely an individual is to have Covid. Bluntly, you cannot say someone hasn't got Covid. They may be asymptomatic. They may have returned a false negative lateral flow test. And/or the PCR that they did may be 3 or 4 days out of date.

It's not my judgement call. But the call being made is whether vaccination reduces the risk in s more feasible & practical way.

 

[DazBlade88]

Have you already done that? I'm loathe to use that argument as it's just more of the same extreme finger pointing that I'm against. If the people who aren't vaxxed & are against the Vax Pass want my help, then - I'm pleading - make an argument that someone in my position can get behind.

I'm not asking as someone against the vaccine pass, but you or someone on here may have knowledge on what is best for us. My wife is newly pregnant and after researching with the RCOG and RCM the advise is that the vaccine is 'encouraged' for pregnant women but concedes that there is not enough specific evidence surrounding the effects on pregnant women and their baby YET, though it is likely that it is safe.

She was all for having the vaccine (I'm double jabbed) but the pregnancy has given us something to think about. After lots of reading and discussions, we decided we didn't think it was worth the risk for her to have it yet. I'm wondering what the vaccine pass means for someone in this situation, as it seems a reasonable stance to be apprehensive at this stage but as it's encouraged it probably wouldn't be classed as an 'exemption'.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I have already written to my MP, yes, over the weekend when they were just murmuring about it. Not that I expect a positive reply given his previous record. I'm sure you can see it as consistent to be pro vax, and pro bodily autonomy and pro health privacy at the same time. I have a pretty good idea of what'll happen if I were to catch the disease. The cure, not so much



We should certainly offer the vaccine. We shouldn't coerce the taking of it. Everyone apart from those at an infinitesimal risk from Covid has been offered a vaccine, the vast majority have had two. Having it "run out of control" right now at the exact opposite of respiratory virus season when the NHS is at its lightest load, particularly amongst the young who are extremely unlikely to utilise the NHS if they were to contact it, is not a major problem. It will help protect everyone.

Sure, there'll be some people with immunodeficiencies that can't take the vaccine. Flu is likely very dangerous to them, as are lots of things. Which goes back to my previous post.

Did you use the phrase "discriminatory East German style bullshit" in the letter to your MP? If so, sorry, I can't get behind that. If not, let me know the actual phrase & argument you used. If I can support it, I will.

 

[wizadry]

I'm not answering for myself, for what I think. I'm answering with the argument in the hope it helps.
The argument goes .... vaccinated people at the event are less likely than the unvaccinated to transmit Covid to other people at the event. In turn, any vaccinated person at the event is less likely than the unvaccinated to catch Covid at the event. And, if they do catch Covid at the event, the vaccinated are less likely to develop serious symptoms & require hospitalisation.

Less likely to transmit. Less likely to catch it. Less likely to become seriously ill. Less likely.....

Lateral flow tests have a known false negative problem.
PCR tests have a delay problem - they have to go to a Lab.
True - testing also reduces the risk. But it is not without it's problems.

Phill, if they haven’t got Covid before they go in then they aren’t going to pass it on, no need for the vaccinated or unvaccinated for that matter to worry, that’s my point!

 

[TankersleyBlade]

Some really interesting views on here and pretty respectfully argued too. My twopenneth …….

I‘ve been double jabbed as has my wife. We both went to Wembley for the Denmark game with our kids. Despite our vaccines, given the crowds it was not a great surprise to find I’d picked up COVID, almost certainly at Wembley given the pings we both got from T&T App and the isolation period. My wife and daughter got it too, my son had already had it a few weeks earlier. I’ve been the worst of us with several days wiped out in bed but we’re all largely fine now. Still no taste or smell though.

My points:
(1) the implementation of the COVID checks system at Wembley was very weak. Anything that relies on a self cert LFT and/or a steward checking manually is in my view almost worthless. How many people do you think would be truthful about an LTF result (sad i know) with a ticket in hand? For those arguing for a continuation of this (LFT’s) as part of any mass crowd system, in my view is it’s pretty pointless
(2) i know over 20 people in family and friends who have had COVID, there may be many more who haven’t had symptoms and haven’t known. Outcomes range from death (other factors too), hospitalisation, long COVID and mild symptoms. Given my experience i wouldn‘t want to risk catching COVID
(3) vaccine - for me it was and remains an easy decision. I appreciate the alternative arguments and I’m not big on a bullying / coercion approach. I also completely understand that some are unable to take the vaccine. What is clear is that we wouldn’t be experiencing the return to relative normality that we are without the high vaccine uptake. Those exercising their choice not to take the jab are benefiting from those who have.
(4) approach to sporting events - the reality is that for now these are not going to be ‘safe’ environments, there is a higher risk of getting COVID than staying at home. I feel for the clinically vulnerable for whom there is no easy solution. As a vaccinated person, I’d be happy to take my chances at any event. If someone wants to sit near me and is unvaccinated then I’m ok with that, the risk to them is significantly greater than it is to me or other vaccinated people nearby.

So on balance I’d say open up without restrictions.

 

[McGoaldrick]

I'm not answering for myself, for what I think. I'm answering with the argument in the hope it helps.
The argument goes .... vaccinated people at the event are less likely than the unvaccinated to transmit Covid to other people at the event. In turn, any vaccinated person at the event is less likely than the unvaccinated to catch Covid at the event. And, if they do catch Covid at the event, the vaccinated are less likely to develop serious symptoms & require hospitalisation.

Less likely to transmit. Less likely to catch it. Less likely to become seriously ill. Less likely.....

Lateral flow tests have a known false negative problem.
PCR tests have a delay problem - they have to go to a Lab.
True - testing also reduces the risk. But it is not without it's problems.

If people at the event don’t have covid, vaccinated or not, no worries

If an unvaccinated person catches covid, research says they risk more serious symptoms. They have accepted that risk, the same way the vaccinated have took the risk of adverse reactions from the jab. No judgement either way from me.

Lateral flow and PCR test focused pilot events have been considering a success. If we have lost confidence in LFTs then I cannot comprehend why the government continue to provide them in such huge numbers with tax payer money.

Testing may have its issues, but vaccine passports (the point of the thread - I’m not trying to change anyone’s decisions, just encourage them not to favour passports) also has issues, both covid-wise and ethically

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I'm not asking as someone against the vaccine pass, but you or someone on here may have knowledge on what is best for us. My wife is newly pregnant and after researching with the RCOG and RCM the advise is that the vaccine is 'encouraged' for pregnant women but concedes that there is not enough specific evidence surrounding the effects on pregnant women and their baby YET, though it is likely that it is safe.

She was all for having the vaccine (I'm double jabbed) but the pregnancy has given us something to think about. After lots of reading and discussions, we decided we didn't think it was worth the risk for her to have it yet. I'm wondering what the vaccine pass means for someone in this situation, as it seems a reasonable stance to be apprehensive at this stage but as it's encouraged it probably wouldn't be classed as an 'exemption'.

Can't help Brother. Sorry. You do what's best for you & your family.

 

[jt64]

Did you use the phrase "discriminatory East German style bullshit" in the letter to your MP? If so, sorry, I can't get behind that. If not, let me know the actual phrase & argument you used. If I can support it, I will.

I used the term health apartheid actually. You can phrase it how you like, but you can't disguise that there's serious ethical considerations

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Phill, if they haven’t got Covid before they go in then they aren’t going to pass it on, no need for the vaccinated or unvaccinated for that matter to worry, that’s my point!

Sorry. Am I misunderstanding? How do they know they've not got Covid as they walk through the door of the event?