Out of interest .........

[Ralph Blade]

Until the 1990’s football clubs positions represented how well run they were and how well managed they were. English fans used to roll their eyes at the regular two horse race in Scotland albeit not quite every year. Sadly that has changed and we are now the same, the Premier League elite is like a closed shop of rich clubs who are allowed to compete in a number of money spinning matches year after year against quality European opponents generating more money for themselves, and attracting the best players, while the rest of the league cannot.
Once to be European Champions you had to be Champions of your own division and survive a straight knockout competition. It’s not a level playing field. The spirit that the league was founded in the late 19th century has been crushed, witness the attempts to gain further influence by some of the elite when looking into supporting the lower leagues through this crisis. The true spirit now begins at the Championship level. No one sadly “belongs“ in the Premier League long term unless you are Liverpool, Man U, Man City, Chelsea, Spurs or Arsenal and I quite frankly would welcome the day when they move away to play in a full time European League. Some have done well to get established, Everton have performed brilliantly to maintain their place, but they aren’t exactly rolling in silverware or European trips and we all know they “narrowly avoided” relegation early in their Premiership history. Leicester have been impressive but it’s still early years yet to call them established. We all want our club to win and there’s the obvious thrill of the chase but any stay in the Premiership is likely to be short term. Outside of it, fortunately, we will be like the rest of the clubs, where we deserve to be and I welcome that.

 

[Cheesebored]

McCabe promised me Europe and until we get it I'll never forgive him.

Gary Sinclair's your only hope now.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

Until the 1990’s football clubs positions represented how well run they were and how well managed they were. English fans used to roll their eyes at the regular two horse race in Scotland albeit not quite every year. Sadly that has changed and we are now the same, the Premier League elite is like a closed shop of rich clubs who are allowed to compete in a number of money spinning matches year after year against quality European opponents generating more money for themselves, and attracting the best players, while the rest of the league cannot.
Once to be European Champions you had to be Champions of your own division and survive a straight knockout competition. It’s not a level playing field. The spirit that the league was founded in the late 19th century has been crushed, witness the attempts to gain further influence by some of the elite when looking into supporting the lower leagues through this crisis. The true spirit now begins at the Championship level. No one sadly “belongs“ in the Premier League long term unless you are Liverpool, Man U, Man City, Chelsea, Spurs or Arsenal and I quite frankly would welcome the day when they move away to play in a full time European League. Some have done well to get established, Everton have performed brilliantly to maintain their place, but they aren’t exactly rolling in silverware or European trips and we all know they “narrowly avoided” relegation early in their Premiership history. Leicester have been impressive but it’s still early years yet to call them established. We all want our club to win and there’s the obvious thrill of the chase but any stay in the Premiership is likely to be short term. Outside of it, fortunately, we will be like the rest of the clubs, where we deserve to be and I welcome that.

This is pretty much my thoughts on it. Any "belonging" in the PL has been rendered impossible by the PL itself. Outside the top 6-8 established PL teams, who can't be dislodged because of the way the PL has a financial feeding loop that is hard to drop out of, there is a mini-league that has about 12 places, three of which are relegation spots. So no one else can belong in the PL because the risk of the drop is too high and the chance of security through wealth is closed out by the clubs at the top. The only chance is an extremely wealthy owner and even that doesn't seem to last long.

 

[BushBlade]

A club of our size should've had more top-flight football in the last 20-30 years.

When you look at some recent examples who've had sustained spells; Burnley, Brighton, Bournemouth, Palace, Stoke, Swansea, Watford etc there's no reason why we shouldn't have either.

Maybe clubs like that are part of the reason. It’s a competition and for every club to “overachieve” you need one to “underachieve”.

We’ve always seemed painfully slow to adapt to changes in the game. Whilst Herbert Chapman was becoming the first chequebook manager, we were getting relegated. As the maximum wage was being abolished, money was becoming more important, money that was a direct result of success, we stood still watching the likes of Busby and Shankly building their clubs into the first clubs to have support all over the country; winning cups and leagues, triumphing in Europe, attracting new audiences that came with the televisation of football, building on their successes to become even bigger and better.
Our reaction? To sell our best players. And, as others have said, we’ve continued to fall behind for the last 50 years, partly through misfortune, partly through bad management of the club by owners who lacked vision or foresight, and we’ll never catch up now.
It’s not just us, the championship is full of clubs like us, clubs whose owners didn’t see the gap growing between them and the more successful clubs and didn’t recognise the threat of clubs that didn’t enter the league until 1920 at the earliest but built and progressed. We’re probably unique in that we’re the only club of our size and heritage that have failed to win a single major trophy in the post war era.

 

[Davalon]

Gary Sinclair's your only hope now.

He told me to fuck off to Barcelona

 

[Pedro Verde]

A club of our size should've had more top-flight football in the last 20-30 years.

Yes totally agree doesnt help spending so much time in L1

When you look at some recent examples who've had sustained spells; Burnley, Brighton, Bournemouth, Palace, Stoke, Swansea, Watford etc there's no reason why we shouldn't have either.

The clubs highlighted have been fortunate to benefit from reasonably rich owners compared to us
That helps but we have to help ourselves by making good decisions

We should think Leicester.

Yawn fucking Yawn
Yes lets go down the Admin route wipe off all our debts and start again without any penalties in the form of fines or points deductions

Leicester were quite lucky to find some good owners, but they were incredibly smart with their recruitment and academy and deserved their success.

One of the main reasons they were 'lucky' to find good owners were the fact they were debt free so an attractive proposition. If you ask the businesses that were owed money and may have gone to the wall Im pretty sure they would not agree that Leicester deserved success

 

[bypassblade]

Belong is a strange term we know we'll be in the Championship next season, but after the way we've performed this season I'd say we belong in National League.

 

[FMBlade1]

One of the main reasons they were 'lucky' to find good owners were the fact they were debt free so an attractive proposition. If you ask the businesses that were owed money and may have gone to the wall Im pretty sure they would not agree that Leicester deserved success

So?

Of course I feel for those businesses but the fact is Leicester were smart and successful, which is what I would like us to be. Almost every club doesn't deserve success, Manchester City for starters (Chelsea, Manchester United etc. )

We're debt free*, we should be an attractive proposition.

* ok there's the stadium/McCabe tie up, but that shouldn't be too much of an obstacle.

Palace and Southampton have also been in administration and are established Premier League clubs. Portsmouth were and suffered, but at least had European football (fixtures against AC Milan) and two FA Cup finals (one win) to show for it, which is more than we have achieved in the past 96 years.

 

[Bennyand the Blades]

It's because the people in the past who have run our club have been satisfied with the way it's always been run, on a shoe string.
These days it's all about how much cash you are willing to put into a club, not how much you can get away with and still keep the punters coming in.
We've always been run like a charity, the fans used to buy the shares but didn't expect to make money on them, and if we hit a bad spell or needed any money, the board would sell our best players to make up the short fall.
We are where we are, left behind like the City because we've always been run like a glorified village football team,

Will HRH pull us out of this rut, or will we crash and burn and go back to being Brigadoon United again ?

Only the Shadow knows and he aint talkin......

 

[no wherries]

......... where do people think we belong?

Next season we will be in the Championship.

Maybe with a Serb, a Croat, a German, a Spanish manager - or maybe not.

However, is the Championship the proper place for us?

Does anyone think we belong in the Premiership?

Would we be struggling to stay there every season, or might we achieve a position where we could be daydreaming about Europe every season - well, at least, now and then?

Should we just accept we aren't a top team and we will only ever be in the Premier League for a season or two and then if, we are lucky, we'll yo-yo back and forth from the Championship keeping our coffers ticking over and fairly healthy. Hopefully, there will always be a good cup run to look forward to and a killing to be made in the transfer market with a sale of some home grown talent or players we have brought on with the intention of strengthening the team - yet again!

Maybe we should settle for yo-yoing between the Championship and League One or are we better than that? I would like to think so.

As I have posted this, I think it is a (fairly) interesting question, certainly for a fairly cold and boring Good Friday, anyway.

When I was much, much younger I was sold on the idea, with John Harris at the helm, that we were a solid First Division club never going to set the world alight but with the odd year or so spent in Division 2 - but things have not turned out that way.

I am intrigued as to how other posters view us and where they think our proper place is in the footballing world.

Happy Easter everyone.

Hi Blades, 1st time reply, long time reader, long time Blade, OK, had a quick look throgh

 

[Geordie Blade]

I don't agree it is a meritocracy. I do not think that is the case at all.

I see little merit in allowing some teams to spend millions upon millions, and at the same time being allowed to bend the rules, when other teams are facing extinction or like Bury well on their way out. It is more capitalism run riot or more likely corporatism running wild and unchecked.

Maybe meritocracy isn’t quite the right word. In the short term, I agree with you. But over longer periods of time, the teams who have millions generally found a way to ‘get’ that money (and, therefore, merited it in a strange sort of way). Whether it was success in the first place to attract the millionaire buyers or by attracting enough fans to build up stacks of cash. Obviously some teams get one-off investors (Blackburn in the 90s, Bournemouth in the 2010s), but they tend to be short lived successes.

That said, I’ll grant you that West Ham would be a good example of a team that gets undeserved special treatment.

 

[themaninblack]

Hi Blades, 1st time reply, long time reader, long time Blade, OK, had a quick look throgh

Bloody hell Dave, give it the 5 year big build-up and then you get bored halfway through your first post? Come on man, grit your teeth!

 

[1889]

Hi Blades, 1st time reply, long time reader, long time Blade, OK, had a quick look throgh

Come on Dave, you cant just leave us all hanging.......... Dave, Dave?

FFS just as it was getting interesting, waits five years to post and his internet drops out

 

[Trigger Blade]

Come on Dave, you cant just leave us all hanging.......... Dave, Dave? FFS

Leave him, there’s plenty more where he came from, at least 36 I reckon

 

[Pedro Verde]

the fact is Leicester were smart and successful, which is what I would like us to be.

Helped by the fact they cheated via the Administration route
If they had points deductions or had to sell players to balance the books they could have ended up in L1
They got off scott free

We're debt free*, we should be an attractive proposition.

Only because weve had two seasons of PL money

Palace and Southampton have also been in administration and are established Premier League clubs. Portsmouth were and suffered, but at least had European football (fixtures against AC Milan) and two FA Cup finals (one win) to show for it, which is more than we have achieved in the past 96 years.

Portsmouth had that realtive success but did that whilst living beyond their means same as Bolton and they have both ended up in the lower divisions where they both currently play

 

[United Aren't Back.]

1976 to 1990.
1994 to 2006.
2007 to 2019.
Exile will be a long one.

 

[Working Class Hero]

By every metric I think of (trophies, years spent in top division, fanbase, ground, current position) we're a top flight club, except for "performance in the last 40 years". If you believe that is a valid metric, then that particular one would have us in the Championship.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

......... where do people think we belong?

Next season we will be in the Championship.

Maybe with a Serb, a Croat, a German, a Spanish manager - or maybe not.

However, is the Championship the proper place for us?

Does anyone think we belong in the Premiership?

Would we be struggling to stay there every season, or might we achieve a position where we could be daydreaming about Europe every season - well, at least, now and then?

Should we just accept we aren't a top team and we will only ever be in the Premier League for a season or two and then if, we are lucky, we'll yo-yo back and forth from the Championship keeping our coffers ticking over and fairly healthy. Hopefully, there will always be a good cup run to look forward to and a killing to be made in the transfer market with a sale of some home grown talent or players we have brought on with the intention of strengthening the team - yet again!

Maybe we should settle for yo-yoing between the Championship and League One or are we better than that? I would like to think so.

As I have posted this, I think it is a (fairly) interesting question, certainly for a fairly cold and boring Good Friday, anyway.

When I was much, much younger I was sold on the idea, with John Harris at the helm, that we were a solid First Division club never going to set the world alight but with the odd year or so spent in Division 2 - but things have not turned out that way.

I am intrigued as to how other posters view us and where they think our proper place is in the footballing world.

Happy Easter everyone.

Your past doesn’t dictate your future.

 

[FMBlade1]

Helped by the fact they cheated via the Administration route
If they had points deductions or had to sell players to balance the books they could have ended up in L1
They got off scott free


Only because weve had two seasons of PL money



Portsmouth had that realtive success but did that whilst living beyond their means same as Bolton and they have both ended up in the lower divisions where they both currently play

Bolton reached a cup final and played Bayern Munich in Europe. I would take that more than happily for a few years in lower league football, which is what we had anyway without that!

It does sadden me that Leicester etc. got away with it, but we can't get mad, get even. Think Leicester, get some rich owners in and be smart with our strategy.

It seems we are starting to improve though on the second point, which is to be welcomed.

 

[JJBlade]

You think there are 44 clubs higher than United. There aren't. That's genuinely ridiculous

In fact it's utter bollocks

No
That's why I said historically every bit a Premier League club

The pricks that have run this club for 40 odd years have made them League One.

We've spent most of the last 40 odd years as a Championship club in name, but certainly not as a club that could compete with other Championship clubs.

We've spent 10 years in League One during that time complaining about not being able to compete.

And one season in League Two where we did

 

[Carlton Blade]

No
That's why I said historically every bit a Premier League club

The pricks that have run this club for 40 odd years have made them League One.

We've spent most of the last 40 odd years as a Championship club in name, but certainly not as a club that could compete with other Championship clubs.

We've spent 10 years in League One during that time complaining about not being able to compete.

And one season in League Two where we did

Utter bollocks.

3rd division? Seriously? I could go and get you the numbers to prove it but it's so ludicrous I can't be arsed

 

[Pedro Verde]

Bolton reached a cup final and played Bayern Munich in Europe. I would take that more than happily for a few years in lower league football which is what we had anyway without that!

Are you for real
Bolton are fucking lucky to have a football club they very nearly went the way of Bury if thats what you want to trade for playing in a cup final and playing in Europe crack on
Why not happily mention the Pigs whilst you are at it. They actually won a cup and played in Europe and look at the fucking state of them now. You must be so jealous of them

 

[Carlton Blade]

No
That's why I said historically every bit a Premier League club

The pricks that have run this club for 40 odd years have made them League One.

We've spent most of the last 40 odd years as a Championship club in name, but certainly not as a club that could compete with other Championship clubs.

We've spent 10 years in League One during that time complaining about not being able to compete.

And one season in League Two where we did

Fuck it. 31 seasons above the 3rd division, including 7 in the top division. 16 of 24 division 2 seasons with a top 10 finish. 10 Cup quarter finals or better.

 

[JJBlade]

Utter bollocks.

3rd division? Seriously? I could go and get you the numbers to prove it but it's so ludicrous I can't be arsed

Yes, ok we competed so well we've been relegated to League One three times, promoted back to it once because it got even worse, and the last time we were there we spent six years there.

In the 80's there was always a Portsmouth a Wolves a Charlton a Wimbledon an Oxford or somebody that we couldn't compete with.

And it was no different in the 2010's either.

But as I said previous to 1979 every bit a top flight club.

Just ruined by small time nobodies since

 

[Carlton Blade]

Yes, ok we competed so well we've been relegated to League One three times, promoted back to it once because it got even worse, and the last time we were there we spent six years there.

In the 80's there was always a Portsmouth a Wolves a Charlton a Wimbledon an Oxford or somebody that we couldn't compete with.

And it was no different in the 2010's either.

But as I said previous to 1979 every bit a top flight club.

Just ruined by small time nobodies since

I'll leave you to your delusions

 

[JJBlade]

I'll leave you to your delusions

I think they're the opposite of delusions

 

[Carlton Blade]

I think they're the opposite of delusions

That's kind of the point of delusions though. If you didn't think they were true it wouldn't work

 

[Working Class Hero]

Yes, ok we competed so well we've been relegated to League One three times

We also got promoted out of it three times, so that's a lack of logic right there.

4 play off campaigns suggest we competed as well.

 

[FMBlade1]

Are you for real
Bolton are fucking lucky to have a football club they very nearly went the way of Bury if thats what you want to trade for playing in a cup final and playing in Europe crack on
Why not happily mention the Pigs whilst you are at it. They actually won a cup and played in Europe and look at the fucking state of them now. You must be so jealous of them

Bury didn't reach a cup final, play in the Europe and have a decade or so in the Premier League.

The other team in Sheffield will recover, until/unless they have 6 years in league one or lower we can't really sneer at them

 

[JJBlade]

We also got promoted out of it three times, so that's a lack of logic right there.

4 play off campaigns suggest we competed as well.

Ooooohhh we competed against League One clubs to such a degree that we qualified for the play offs.

Something that a couple of mid table teams do every season