We want our club back - can we learn from Watford???

[Ollessendro]

Really interesting talking to the Watford fans yesterday. They have an interesting model and I think United could learn from it. The board have put a £5k a week cap on salaries and Mackay has worked hard to instill a footballing philosophy. He has brought in players from their youth team and scowered the lower leagues and Scottish leagues looking for cheap young talent. Result: a team of good young players, who want to play for Watford FC, who play with passion and pride. Not only that, but a decent footballing side with players that can and try to play football.

Can United learn from this? Absolutely. In League One we should cut our losses and try to instill this kind of policy. Ship out all the big earners and only employ people on low wage contracts. It doesn't have to be 5k, it could be 7 or 8 a week. Use the development squad, use the academy players and sign proespects from the lower leagues. No washed up has been's on loan on big wages. No big contracts for players who flatter to deceive.

We want our club back. We want to feel and affiliation to the players again. We want young Sheffielders playing, or players that want to play for SUFC. Players that love the club, play with passion and pride and will put their bodies on the line. We can leanr from Watford and do this. A Watford fan said to me a few years ago he had no affiliation to the team. The likes of Marlon King and crew were tossers and didn't really care about the club. Now all of them want to play for Watford. They have a good philosophy and decent set up.

We have the basis for this. We have the academy. We have the development squad. Let's fuck off Henderson, Creswell, Monty and all the overpaid tossers. Anyone who wants a new contract can have one at £5k a week. If not, fuck off. We'll bring people through from the academy, use a devlopment player or bring a player in from the lower league. There is fat chance that those idiots on the baord will have the balls or vision to do this, but hey ho. Grow some balls McCabe, use your noggin Birch. Get it sorted United.

We want our club back. Going down may be the perfect opportunity for a clear out, change in philosophy and change in set up.

 

[secretchief]

Their youth academy is modelled on Ajax's:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jul/17/england-world-cup-watford

"We pick the children up at around 7am and they then do all the normal subjects but also have scheduled coaching throughout the day – at times when they are fresh – then we drop them home at 7pm. We get to do about 15 hours of football with them a week, up to three times more than most other clubs in this country.

 

[yorkshirecoast]

If the best we can do is aspire to be like Watford, they we really are fucked.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

As secretchief has noted, the do have close links with a school. That sort of stuff doesn't take place overnight, but it is something we could lay the seeds for.

I'd love to have a salary cap, but if other teams don't then you our just hurting yourselves. You'll not keep on to your youth players if all you've got is agents muttering big money into their ears every time the transfer window comes around

 

[super_pig]

>I'd love to have a salary cap, but if other teams don't then you our just hurting yourselves
not having a salary cap is hurting us more.. sorry but this is a bit like saying 'yeah getting off the drugs was really painful so i just kept taking them'

 

[Highbury_Blade]

The lack of a salary cap isn't hurting us, it's the spunking of money on shit players that's doing it.

 

[super_pig]

heh.. you aren't wrong you know.. we're missing the wood for the trees.. we need to stop loaning and buying shit players!

 

[oldblade]

If the best we can do is aspire to be like Watford, they we really are fucked.

Can't see that it's a particularly bad thing to take some pointers from a club that has generally done better than us over the last 30 years.

 

[davidpinder]

I can't see Danny Graham being on 5k a week

 

[bladeinspaceandtime]

If the best we can do is aspire to be like Watford, they we really are fucked.

Jesus! You need to realise what a fuckoff big hole United are in now. We should have put a plan loke this is place a few years ago, instead of spending daft money on players other clubs didn't want.

 

[Worksop II]

We want our club back

Well said, and I am also impressed you knew which Town you were in ..........

 

[Kempy]

Really interesting talking to the Watford fans yesterday. They have an interesting model and I think United could learn from it. The board have put a £5k a week cap on salaries and Mackay has worked hard to instill a footballing philosophy. He has brought in players from their youth team and scowered the lower leagues and Scottish leagues looking for cheap young talent. Result: a team of good young players, who want to play for Watford FC, who play with passion and pride. Not only that, but a decent footballing side with players that can and try to play football.

Can United learn from this? Absolutely. In League One we should cut our losses and try to instill this kind of policy. Ship out all the big earners and only employ people on low wage contracts. It doesn't have to be 5k, it could be 7 or 8 a week. Use the development squad, use the academy players and sign proespects from the lower leagues. No washed up has been's on loan on big wages. No big contracts for players who flatter to deceive.

I would also love to see a clear out and 5-8k max per week wages.
However how do you propose we get rid of these players with high wages? Do you really think it will be that easy to clear out shit?

 

[WorkingtonBlade]

However how do you propose we get rid of these players with high wages? Do you really think it will be that easy to clear out shit?

Well, we're stuck with them until the end of their contracts, obviously (aside from the unlikely event that someone else wants them). You can't just say to a player "you are now on £5k per week". That's why what Watford have done is a long-term project, not an immediate quick-fix.

Having a look around a couple of Watford forums, what surprises me is the amount of negativity amongst their fans. I suppose, like us, when they got to the Premiership they picked up quite a few fans who expect them to be either in the Premiership, or walking the Championship. Still, Malky Mackay seems amazingly unpopular, and I know their fans are always quiet, but given the game and where they are in the league, yesterday was ridiculous.

I think the principle the club have applied is basically the right one though.

Given that we have a bigger fan base so more income, we could have a higher wage cap, but the principle is of living within your means, doing things in a sustainable way (no "if we don't go up this season we're buggered") and bringing in players from lower leagues and the youth system, rather than big-time charlies.

 

[oldblade]

Well, we're stuck with them until the end of their contracts, obviously (aside from the unlikely event that someone else wants them). You can't just say to a player "you are now on £5k per week". That's why what Watford have done is a long-term project, not an immediate quick-fix.

Having a look around a couple of Watford forums, what surprises me is the amount of negativity amongst their fans. I suppose, like us, when they got to the Premiership they picked up quite a few fans who expect them to be either in the Premiership, or walking the Championship. Still, Malky Mackay seems amazingly unpopular, and I know their fans are always quiet, but given the game and where they are in the league, yesterday was ridiculous.

I think the principle the club have applied is basically the right one though.

Given that we have a bigger fan base so more income, we could have a higher wage cap, but the principle is of living within your means, doing things in a sustainable way (no "if we don't go up this season we're buggered") and bringing in players from lower leagues and the youth system, rather than big-time charlies.

When Warnock first came to Bramall Lane I got the distinct impression that our Board had a similar outlook to the one Watford are now applying. I don't know how rigid we were on wages, but the wage bill was a fraction of what it is now and we would not shell out ridiculous amounts in either wages or transfer fees. The end result was that we had a pretty good team then. What would we give for the side that went on that unbeaten run at the end of 2002: Kenny, Harley, Murphy, Page, Jagielka, Tonge, Brown, McCall, Ndlovu, then two from Asaba, Allison, Kabba, Windas, Peschisolido. With Montgomery sometimes figuring in a 5 man midfield. That is considerably better than the side we now have, and even allowing for inflation was paid far far less.

 

[Ollessendro]

If the best we can do is aspire to be like Watford, they we really are fucked.

good one

I'd love to have a salary cap, but if other teams don't then you our just hurting yourselves. You'll not keep on to your youth players if all you've got is agents muttering big money into their ears every time the transfer window comes around

Why Highbury? 5k a week is a competitive salary in League One. Look at Watford as an example. A much better team, full of young players and players with a point to prove. All getting paid 5k or less a week
.

I would also love to see a clear out and 5-8k max per week wages.
However how do you propose we get rid of these players with high wages? Do you really think it will be that easy to clear out shit?

We could not do it over night. Players on existing contracts would have to run out, unless we sold them. Other clubs would buy Monty, Quinn, Hendo and Ched. We might struggle to get rid of Cresswell but we could let his contract run out. It would be a gradual process, to take place over 2 or 3 seasons. However we could start by not offerign anyone over 5/6k a week when offered a new deal.

Well, we're stuck with them until the end of their contracts, obviously (aside from the unlikely event that someone else wants them). You can't just say to a player "you are now on £5k per week". That's why what Watford have done is a long-term project, not an immediate quick-fix.

Having a look around a couple of Watford forums, what surprises me is the amount of negativity amongst their fans. I suppose, like us, when they got to the Premiership they picked up quite a few fans who expect them to be either in the Premiership, or walking the Championship. Still, Malky Mackay seems amazingly unpopular, and I know their fans are always quiet, but given the game and where they are in the league, yesterday was ridiculous.

I think the principle the club have applied is basically the right one though.

Given that we have a bigger fan base so more income, we could have a higher wage cap, but the principle is of living within your means, doing things in a sustainable way (no "if we don't go up this season we're buggered") and bringing in players from lower leagues and the youth system, rather than big-time charlies.

Good post.

Most Watford fans are behind Mackay. I spoke to a few and they were full of praise. I asked a friend and he said the view on the terraces is that they are behind him. Always been poor support there though.

Interesting point around salary cap potentially being higher. I would be keen to set it at around 7 or 8 though. Any more than that and we risk paying big money to crap, big time charlies.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Interesting point around salary cap potentially being higher. I would be keen to set it at around 7 or 8 though. Any more than that and we risk paying big money to crap, big time charlies.

But that's the whole point. Big salaries aren't evil if they're going to a player that can make the difference. For all watford's promise, they're still milling around in Mid-Table.

If Mackay is so good, how come they're not higher? Because other teams are able to pay their players more and get better quality in.

I repeat, paying people big money isn't bad, as long as they're the right player. When you've got the likes of France pulling in 7k a week, then it's not the fact that we don't have a salary cap that's at fault, it's the bone-headed decision to pay him that in the first place that's the problem.

Maybe the A-League have got the right idea, where there is a salary cap, but teams can bust it for a marquee player.

 

[Ollessendro]

If Mackay is so good, how come they're not higher? Because other teams are able to pay their players more and get better quality in.

I'd say he is doing a pretty good job. With the limitations on wages, money to spend, fan base etc then they are in a great position. They may finish higher. They've been on a bad run.

I really like the idea of a cap. It's a signal. A message. We want players who want to play for United. We want youngster, unproven players with a point to prove and people on the up. Passionate, proud Blades. 7k a week is a good salary. If players don't want to play for the Blades for less than 8k a week, then fuck them off. Remember what division we'll be in Highbury. 7k a week in League One is quite a lot. We could definately build a team with this idea.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

If we are paying any new players in league one more than 7k a week then they better be shit hot game changers.

I'd say he is doing a pretty good job. With the limitations on wages

So if he was able to spend more money, they'd be challenging for the play-offs or automatic then?

 

[GlosBlade]

Assume the talked about 7k a week is only for the top earners ? 7k a week is over a third of a million pounds a year, put 20 players on that sort of salary and that's 7million - I very much doubt we will be able to run a wage bill like that in league 1 next season.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

The difference between a good team and a great team often just comes down to one or two players that can make a difference. Where would QPR be this season without Taraabt for instance? If we are closing our selves off to players of genuine quality merely because they want a couple of grand a week more than our cap, in my opinion is just shooting ourseleves in the foot. (i'll accept that 7k a week should get you some very decent league 1 players).

 

[Ollessendro]

If we are paying any new players in league one more than 7k a week then they better be shit hot game changers.

So if he was able to spend more money, they'd be challenging for the play-offs or automatic then?

Agree with your first statement.

Highbury, I am not mackay's biggest fan, but think he is doing a good job. He in herited a poor team that looked certain for the drop. He saved them last season (just) and has built on that. This year they are a decent outfit and will probably finish mid table. They have an outside chance of the play offs. For two seasons I think he has taken them a long way. He has had no money and significant restraints, but got them playing well. I expect them to build on it and challenge for the play offs next year.

Assume the talked about 7k a week is only for the top earners ? 7k a week is over a third of a million pounds a year, put 20 players on that sort of salary and that's 7million - I very much doubt we will be able to run a wage bill like that in league 1 next season.

I'd say that 7k a week is too much for League One. I initially started with a 5k suggestion. We would have to calculate it to our revenue from tikcets, tv money, sales etc. My suggestion is a 5/6/7k cap (i.e. maximum wage). I would expect the average to be much less. I envisage the team having a lot of young players (i.e coming from the academy and development squad) and lower league players with a point to prove. They would be happy to earn 3 or 4k a week.

The difference between a good team and a great team often just comes down to one or two players that can make a difference. Where would QPR be this season without Taraabt for instance? If we are closing our selves off to players of genuine quality merely because they want a couple of grand a week more than our cap, in my opinion is just shooting ourseleves in the foot. (i'll accept that 7k a week should get you some very decent league 1 players).

QPR would probably still get prmotoed without Tarbart. they are a well organised side, with a decent squad and a good manager. I have some sympathy for your argument Highbury, but think that the team I described would not necessarily need a big earner. Why could we not find a Tarbaart from the lower leagues or even the academy.

(oh and it should be noted that Taarbart is on about 7/8k a week. He signed a 3 year contract worth 1 million. That would put him inside a salary cap of 8k - perfectly reasonable for United if we were in the Championship).

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Without Taraabts goals, they would be 10 pts worse off (i've not looked into his assists, which are the highest in the championship.)

That's a side point anyway.

I just don't think we need a stringent salary cap. We just need a chairman that will say to agents, "He's not good enough to be getting 7k." More than happy for us to give a big contract out for players that have the genuine quality Ie Someone like Taraabt.

 

[Ollessendro]

Without Taraabts goals, they would be 10 pts worse off (i've not looked into his assists, which are the highest in the championship.)

That's a side point anyway.

I just don't think we need a stringent salary cap. We just need a chairman that will say to agents, "He's not good enough to be getting 7k." More than happy for us to give a big contract out for players that have the genuine quality Ie Someone like Taraabt.

he is getting paid 7k a week. Just proves that you can sign quality within a cap.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

It was 7/8k 10 minutes ago Olle. Make your mind up.

Have you got a source for that by the way?

 

[grafikhaus]

I think Olle raises some interesting points in this thread. However, I think the difficulties in such a system are obvious.

First off, you generally get what you pay for (although this is obviously not our case this season). Imagine us back in the Championship and seeing teams who have recently got relegated from the PL walking the division because they could afford to pay big wages owing to the parachute payments?

Think what we could be if certain people at SUFC recognised a 'game changer' if one smacked them in the face? Andy Reid is one. Kevin Phillips at Brum is another we could have got if we had any ambition. What if he's on, say, £25k a week? We're wasting that on Ched + Boggy + Cressy + Bent.

It would rely on time we haven't got. Every passing season sees the chasm between the PL and the rest widen. Blackpool have tried a cap of £10k per week and they'll go down, if not this year then certainly next. And look out for the backlash against Holloway from the arrivistes who demand instant success.

No, we've had our chance but we don't have the personnel at the club to implement measured, structured improvement such as Stoke have managed.

 

[Tuns]

A model where you get the foundations right, invest and develop youth, invest in an excellent scouting system and don't sign crap players on expensive contracts are all very commendable and should be at the heart of what United do next.

But there is no escaping the fact that success will always come down to making good, key decisions and a bit of luck.

You can get the infrastucture right and then appoint the wrong manager, or sell your best young players too early etc and ultimatley you do need to spend money but you have to do it well.

To some degree (and I'm not saying we had the perfect model) we have been through the cycle. We gave Warnock 7 years, we developed the academy, we brought through Tonge, Jags and Monty and eventually we got promoted.

We were then in a position to spend our new found riches wisely to further develop the club and in various ways on and off the pitch we blew it and are arguably in a worse position than when McCabe took over.

Charlton are good example of 'well run club' for years who came from nothing and no ground to established in the prem - they then just made some bad decisions.

We need to rebuild our foundations and better than before but things will still come down to getting some of the big key decisions around managers and players right.

 

[SwissBlade]

Since we were relegated from the PL, how many players did we raid from Watford?

 

[sheffielder]

Since we were relegated from the PL, how many players did we raid from Watford?

Don't, I might cry again

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I'm pretty sure the model has been in place (in theory) since the academy was created. The problem is, you have to have the youth management, senior management and board all pulling in the same direction and that's not happened since we were relegated. McCabe panicked and gave Robson a fortune when we came down and then sold the Kyles as soon as we failed to go up which basically blew the 'model' out of the water.

I'm not saying it's all McCabe's fault, Blackwell only played Kyle N because of injuries to the likes of Sun Jihai for example.

No doubt relegation would force MA (or whoever) to use the youth players and you've got more chance to build from a low start point but as I say, unless the whole club, including the manager, are pulling in the same direction, it's not going to happen.

 

[SwissBlade]

I'm pretty sure the model has been in place (in theory) since the academy was created. The problem is, you have to have the youth management, senior management and board all pulling in the same direction and that's not happened since we were relegated. McCabe panicked and gave Robson a fortune when we came down and then sold the Kyles as soon as we failed to go up which basically blew the 'model' out of the water.

I'm not saying it's all McCabe's fault, Blackwell only played Kyle N because of injuries to the likes of Sun Jihai for example.

No doubt relegation would force MA (or whoever) to use the youth players and you've got more chance to build from a low start point but as I say, unless the whole club, including the manager, are pulling in the same direction, it's not going to happen.

Agreed and there is nothing, so far, to suggest that Micky isn't pulling for this same goal as Pembo