Not been the same since Berge came in...

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IdLiketoRogerMoore said:
Not usually one for knee jerk reactions but had a bottle of red with lunch so thought I'd join in the pile on!!

Personally think Berge joining has been the catalyst for this downward spiral. You can chart the demise of Norwood and Lundstram to the day he walked through the door. Our system worked so well at the start of last season due to Lundstram's lung bursting runs and Norwood's ubiquitous pings...

The merits of him as a player can be debated but the impact of his arrival cannot...

Plus he was by far our worst player today...
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Him or Ampadu were the worst today
 



I agree, the Fleck/Lunny/Norwood combo seemed to work better. Although Fleck is really lucky to continue in the side for me. He has been nothing short of abysmal.

The midield not being strengthened in the window is another costly transfer mistake.
 
Chabuddy G said:
Wrong. The rot started before Berge walked through the door. We were scraping results from December onwards. This has been coming.

Don’t believe me? Ask Carlton Blade his views.
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IdLiketoRogerMoore our last great attacking performance, outside of the random Chelsea/Spurs games was first half, City away.

We were OK first half v West Ham, last 30 at Arsenal, last hour v Bournemouth. Apart from that it was just nicking goals and hanging on. Best example is second half at home v Norwich. We barely had a kick.

As soon as good Moose disappeared teams figured out we couldn't attack the middle of the pitch. They attacked Norwood and kept their full backs wider. The long passes from Norwood stopped, attacks took an age to get started and we stopped creating.

Weve scored more than 1 league goal in a game 3 times in 2020.
 
Carlton Blade said:
IdLiketoRogerMoore our last great attacking performance, outside of the random Chelsea/Spurs games was first half, City away.

We were OK first half v West Ham, last 30 at Arsenal, last hour v Bournemouth. Apart from that it was just nicking goals and hanging on. Best example is second half at home v Norwich. We barely had a kick.

As soon as good Moose disappeared teams figured out we couldn't attack the middle of the pitch. They attacked Norwood and kept their full backs wider. The long passes from Norwood stopped, attacks took an age to get started and we stopped creating.

Weve scored more than 1 league goal in a game 3 times in 2020.
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Wouldn't disagree and the sentiment behind Berge was clearly to upgrade at CDM. Wilder had noticed that without possession teams had realised Norwood was a liability. It just turns out the player he bought is equally a liability out of possession.

I never took to Besic but his style of play is better suited to our current side where we cede possession so am surprised we didn't try to buy a player in that mould as well/instead.

Our falling off a cliff can be tracked to the entire midfield losing all sense of cohesion, organisation and structure. The days of Duffy, Fleck and Coutts (and more recently: Fleck, Norwood, Lundstram) appear to have vanished. Not for one minute saying that would have worked in the PL, but the fluidity and structure of those 3 show a glimpse of what makes Tufty-ball work. When Evans, Leonard et al came in, we had a similar mess to what we currently have.

The JOC/Crowd/Henderson/McBurnie red herrings are throwing people off the real reason.
 
essyoueffsee said:
Go look at the player ratings then, and stop making stuff up while you're there.
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So on occasion he's played marginally better than some of the other planks in the team, great. He's a bad fit and a bad signing, and to pretend everyone has turned on him based solely on today's game is very much making stuff up.
 
Berge probably (definitely) hasn’t been worth the money.

But can’t really be separated from

  • no fans
  • broken JOC
  • loss of confidence from everyone else in the side
 
IdLiketoRogerMoore said:
Wouldn't disagree and the sentiment behind Berge was clearly to upgrade at CDM. Wilder had noticed that without possession teams had realised Norwood was a liability. It just turns out the player he bought is equally a liability out of possession.

I never took to Besic but his style of play is better suited to our current side where we cede possession so am surprised we didn't try to buy a player in that mould as well/instead.

Our falling off a cliff can be tracked to the entire midfield losing all sense of cohesion, organisation and structure. The days of Duffy, Fleck and Coutts (and more recently: Fleck, Norwood, Lundstram) appear to have vanished. Not for one minute saying that would have worked in the PL, but the fluidity and structure of those 3 show a glimpse of what makes Tufty-ball work. When Evans, Leonard et al came in, we had a similar mess to what we currently have.

The JOC/Crowd/Henderson/McBurnie red herrings are throwing people off the real reason.
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I agree with parts but "the midfield is non existent" is the cry of every terrible team. The need is, and has been for an evolution in how the team plays to better suit the new players.

Instead we maintain "the system" with inexperienced players who don't have the versatility to fit into its multi-role requirements. It's unacceptable at the moment. You cannot be this bad for sustained periods without something changing in any industry
 
Carlton Blade said:
I agree with parts but "the midfield is non existent" is the cry of every terrible team. The need is, and has been for an evolution in how the team plays to better suit the new players.

Instead we maintain "the system" with inexperienced players who don't have the versatility to fit into its multi-role requirements. It's unacceptable at the moment. You cannot be this bad for sustained periods without something changing in any industry
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Exactly, and for the record, I'm still backing Tufty to figure it out, but it seems a real mess at the moment.

From the outside looking in, it looks like Lundstram not signing his contract/semi-downing tools has thrown a major spanner in the works. As has Berge going backwards and Norwood no longer being an option. Chuck in Fleck getting injured and it's a reyt mess.

Recruitment needed to be better in that area and the lack of it is what has landed us here. You're right, the evolution of this area was vital and you can see over the years how Tufty has focused on this area. It just seems now the roof has come in... Fuck knows what role Ampadu was brought in to fulfill and the lack of any kind of athleticism and technical ability in this area is hurting is week after week after week...
 
borg elite said:
And yet up until two weeks ago he had the highest average fans rating on here https://www.s24su.com/forum/index.php?match-day/ and has most MOTM awards. To blame our demise on one player, Berge, is ludicrous. Just another scapegoat for people.
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Read the original post...

His abilities aren't in doubt, it's more the effect he's had on the players around him - who were/are pivotal to our way of play that is the issue...
 
IdLiketoRogerMoore said:
Exactly, and for the record, I'm still backing Tufty to figure it out, but it seems a real mess at the moment.

From the outside looking in, it looks like Lundstram not signing his contract/semi-downing tools has thrown a major spanner in the works. As has Berge going backwards and Norwood no longer being an option. Chuck in Fleck getting injured and it's a reyt mess.

Recruitment needed to be better in that area and the lack of it is what has landed us here. You're right, the evolution of this area was vital and you can see over the years how Tufty has focused on this area. It just seems now the roof has come in... Fuck knows what role Ampadu was brought in to fulfill and the lack of any kind of athleticism and technical ability in this area is hurting is week after week after week...
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Athleticism is the thing I've been bleating on about since we got promoted. We were the slowest, smallest, weakest team last season but we had a plan, cohesion, everyone covering everyone else and knowing their roles. And still the margin for error was miniscule. We've gotten smaller and slower (Burke excepted) and don't have any cohesion. So we are constantly overrun.
 



We’re expecting too much of him for a young lad I fear. Would be better somewhere like Southampton where they can bed him in and give him a rest every 5 games or so when performance drops. We have far too small a squad for that. We have to persevere when these luxury players go through a bad patch and it’s obviously costing us this season. Can name about 6 players who could be dropped, but who do you bring in for them?
 
Carlton Blade said:
Athleticism is the thing I've been bleating on about since we got promoted. We were the slowest, smallest, weakest team last season but we had a plan, cohesion, everyone covering everyone else and knowing their roles. And still the margin for error was miniscule. We've gotten smaller and slower (Burke excepted) and don't have any cohesion. So we are constantly overrun.
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Yep, and I guess we're seeing why 3 other teams ditched Norwood once they'd gotten promoted...

You're right though. Athletically we're looking really undersized and a yard short all across the pitch.

It's a reyt mess...
 
IdLiketoRogerMoore said:
Read the original post...

His abilities aren't in doubt, it's more the effect he's had on the players around him - who were/are pivotal to our way of play that is the issue...
Click to expand...
And yet he was involved in barnstorming performances against, Spurs, Chelsea and Wolves when United were superb - the United we have all come to know and love over the past few years. I fail to see how his introduction can somehow affect the the poor collective and individual performances we have seen since the restart. There are numerous other factors that have led to our downfall. Performances had started to drop before that Palace game, though what we're seeing now is plumbing new depths of bad.
 
Off the ball movement when we are in possession is almost non existant in the midfield so we can't build attacks we just pinball between driving up the wing a little then passing all the way back to the goalkeeper because our midfielders can't be arsed to offer themselves for a pass to the player on the ball.
 
Berge, Brewster, Burke and probably Bogle (if we ever see him) are not all shit players and are not the reason for our current position.

They are all decent playing in a system that others have had longer to adapt to, a system that this season lacks keys players and other experienced players of that system consistently underperforming.

Berge, like everyone, is having a bad spell but is he the reason we’re bottom? No, he isn’t.

They all are. No player is currently standing out as performing well consistently.

Berge, to me, looks like a player who is being pulled in about three directions, often with no support around him. Yes his pace is off but we didn’t sign him for that, we signed him to grab the ball and move with it, which he’s doing.

There’s only so many times you can try and see you’re alone before you try to change it up, get frustrated and your head drops.

All this on top of the fact that he’s a stranger in a new country in the middle of a fucking pandemic.

We were singing his name at Palace, his first game, and now he’s dog shit apparently.

The harsh reality is they’re all shit atm including CW / AK.
 
We are all trying to figure out what the hell has happened and there may well be merit in the OP.
But as others have touched on, its likely a range of factors that have combined to shaft us.

JOC injury, other injuries, loss of form of other stalwarts from previous seasons, some poor purchases, some managerial inflexibility, style of play getting sussed. lack of quality cover etc. etc.

Its sooo disappointing and heart breaking, but then again it is sooo united isn't it?
 
IdLiketoRogerMoore said:
Not usually one for knee jerk reactions but had a bottle of red with lunch so thought I'd join in the pile on!!

Personally think Berge joining has been the catalyst for this downward spiral. You can chart the demise of Norwood and Lundstram to the day he walked through the door. Our system worked so well at the start of last season due to Lundstram's lung bursting runs and Norwood's ubiquitous pings...

The merits of him as a player can be debated but the impact of his arrival cannot...

Plus he was by far our worst player today...
Click to expand...
I get what you are saying but I’d say Moose was hitting the net but then went totally off the boil. I believe playing McBurnie saw a change in system.

Id sell McBurnie over Berge but we need O’Connell back quick then need to get a player who can keep it on the deck, take players on and open up the defence for Brewster and Moose.

Come on wilder get Brooks in Jan
 
Guesty said:
So on occasion he's played marginally better than some of the other planks in the team, great. He's a bad fit and a bad signing, and to pretend everyone has turned on him based solely on today's game is very much making stuff up.
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But you said he’s had 3 good games, THAT is making stuff up. He’s a quality player surrounded by championship players for the most part.
 
He cost a bob or two more than the rest so his wages will probably be a bob or two more as will McB's, Rammys and the new kid, and nothing breaks up a team quicker than money,.... ;)
 
Berge played in the wins v Spurs, Chelsea & Wolves but I don’t recall him being outstanding??
 



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