Erm... Harry Kane's goal?

[bladesmanluke]

because..? Is it this business of phases again because until United get a foot in or it goes out of play or something of that nature I'm calling it the same phase-unless somebody can direct me to guidance on phases in the game of football.

Nope, nothing to do with phases. He's just simply nowhere near the ball whatsoever and not active. You can stand wherever you like, onside, 30 yards offside. It matters not one bit if the ball isn't played to you

 

[pdincubus]

next pass = next phase.

John Lundstram’s big toe incident was SEVERAL passes before the goal and I believe at least one Spurs player made a half-clearance too. But that big toe was deemed part of the same phase.

Basically what I’m saying is they’re making it up as they go to benefit whoever they want to get the decision at that time.

 

[Geordie Blade]

John Lundstram’s big toe incident was SEVERAL passes before the goal and I believe at least one Spurs player made a half-clearance too. But that big toe was deemed part of the same phase.

Basically what I’m saying is they’re making it up as they go to benefit whoever they want to get the decision at that time.

No they aren't. Read the laws of the game. You might not agree with the laws as they stand, but Kane wasn't offside and Lundstram was. Likewise, it was a handball for their goal last night, however ludicrous the rule is.

For our goal at Villa though, the laws weren't applied properly, and that's quite a different matter.

 

[PokerBlade]

John Lundstram’s big toe incident was SEVERAL passes before the goal and I believe at least one Spurs player made a half-clearance too. But that big toe was deemed part of the same phase.

Basically what I’m saying is they’re making it up as they go to benefit whoever they want to get the decision at that time.

But Lundstram was (allegedly) offside and actually touched the ball. So if he was offside a free kick should be given.

It's not an offence to be in an offside position, only if you actually interfere with play. I'll grant that the length of time they pulled back on the Lunny incident was ridiculous, but it's completely different to last night's goal.

We can squabble all day long about the current interpretations of the rules and the letter of the law but Kane isn't anywhere near the ball when he's offside and it's simply the case that those are being interpreted as fair play. There's loads of cases just like it, it was never going to be given, nor would it make the game as a whole better if it were.

 

[8lade]

He's just simply nowhere near the ball whatsoever and not active.

Ok fair enough but the rules are open to interpretation on that:


Offside offence

A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:

• interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate

(From the FA website)
So imo if he was offside on the first pass (he wasn't) it can be called when he receives the second pass. If however another player receives the ball and scores it doesn't matter that Kane was offside because he never interferes with play.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Ok fair enough but the rules are open to interpretation on that:


Offside offence

A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:

• interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate

(From the FA website)
So imo if he was offside on the first pass (he wasn't) it can be called when he receives the second pass. If however another player receives the ball and scores it doesn't matter that Kane was offside because he never interferes with play.

No he isn't, even with your definition, because at that stage he isn't interfering, in fact the first pass moves the ball away from him entirely.
What are you saying is that by scoring he interfered with play, so you are mixing up the two phases which isn't how the law is applied.
He could have been dancing on the goal line when the first pass was made, so long as he was onside for the cross back to him.

 

[bladesmanluke]

Ok fair enough but the rules are open to interpretation on that:


Offside offence

A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:

• interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate

(From the FA website)
So imo if he was offside on the first pass (he wasn't) it can be called when he receives the second pass. If however another player receives the ball and scores it doesn't matter that Kane was offside because he never interferes with play.

Maybe if he put his hand over Hendo's eyes and shouted "now what you gonna do!?" Whilst stood in an offside position he'd be interfering with play, but he's so far from interfering I don't think there's anything for VAR to check

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Maybe if he put his hand over Hendo's eyes and shouted "now what you gonna do!?" Whilst stood in an offside position he'd be interfering with play, but he's so far from interfering I don't think there's anything for VAR to check

That would be obstruction wouldn't it?

 

[8lade]

so you are mixing up the two phases

back to talking about phases, please direct me to guidance on phases.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

back to talking about phases, please direct me to guidance on phases.

The pass.

 

[8lade]

A pass.

Source?

 

[Large Mendonca]

I'm not even sure JL7 was offside at Spurs away, that line they drew went straight through the Spurs defender (was it Dier?)

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Source?

I'm guessing you are prodding around the fact that it won't be included within the Laws, but that is because it doesn't need to be.
Offside is from the pass and concerns the attacking player when he touches the ball. It doesn't mention the phase before it or after it, because it doesn't need to.
Within the Law, the two passes are judged individually and totally separately but against the same criteria. They do not accumulate or influence each other so phase is just a way of saying what happened before this point is irrelevant.
In each instance, is the player who touches the ball directly after the pass in an offside position? If no then play continues, there is no ambiguity.

Is Son offside from this pass? He is the only player who counts.

 

[8lade]

It may be in the laws but I can't find it. It may be that the waters have been muddied by punditry on this but the laws could be clearer.

 

[Brian Deane]

It may be in the laws but I can't find it. It may be that the waters have been muddied by punditry on this but the laws could be clearer.

The laws are as clear as mud. Thats how the FA wants them to be so they can interpret anyway they wish. UTB

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

It may be in the laws but I can't find it. It may be that the waters have been muddied by punditry on this but the laws could be clearer.

I would be surprised if it is in the laws because it's not needed. Pundits use it to explain because it's less aggressive than saying it's completely irrelevant.
Until Kane receives the pass from Son, anything he has done up to that point is totally irrelevant as far as the offside law is concerned.

This sound harsher than I mean it, and I'm not intending to be a prick, but I can't think of another way to say it.
It's not that the offside law isn't clear because it is very clear and very straight forward it's just that you don't know it, like you believe you do.

I'm the same with many laws and VAR in particular but I think that is what causes most of the frustration in that there are so many different interpretations of the laws being used among fans, and we all assume we know them, when actually at any one point there is only one current truth.

The laws are as clear as mud. Thats how the FA wants them to be so they can interpret anyway they wish. UTB

Not true Deano. There are lots of laws where I think it's not clear and how they are interpreted by the refs has no consistency, but this one is black and white.
The player receiving the ball either is or isn't offside.

 

[MoSF94]

I can accept Berge playing him onside but talk of him being inactive in that stage of play (he receives the ball next pass!) Is utter nonsense.

It's not utter nonsense, it's the current rule. If you think the rule itself is nonsense, that's another discussion, but nothing to do with the ref, lino or VAR