Trevor Birch on RS Tonight

[judge]

cant see what all the fuss is about

i wouldnt swap our £48m "debt" for the pigs £26m bank debt ,half is on the hotel which as i understand is about to be turned into a long term mortgage payed by copthorne and the rest is owed to mccabe and only pigs and micalijo think he will pull £26m out of the club and leave us stranded

so we have to cut back even more next season ,is this really a surprise to anyone ?

we dont have the income to support a high wage bill end of thread

 

[ghandi]

Disagree Raul, we've got an academy, really good ground. The club has come on leaps and bounds in terms of infrastructure.

If the new period of austerity brings anything, I'd like to see a lot more blooding of youngsters from the Academy and a slightly more progressive playing style.

UTB

The biggest ground improvement was carried out under Mike Mac's tenure - the John St Stand. St Kev built the poxy little corner and the better Westfield Corner.

 

[judge]

the biggest ground improvement was carried out under mike mac's tenure - the john st stand. St kev built the poxy little corner and the better westfield corner.

i said end of thread!!!

 

[chipsncake]

McCabe gets stick for putting a positive "spin" on everything and therefore not telling the truth.
Birch gives an interview and is negatively blunt about the current financial situation and he gets accused of spin and has now alienated 99% of all Blades fans.

You couldn't make it up.

Not what Birch said but the way he said it. Also I can't remember the last positive words to come out of McCabe's mouth, come to think of it I can't remember the last time McCabe actually spoke to the fans in a meaningful way. Carry on clapping fella.

 

[bblade88]

FH Interview

basically in lamens terms.........

1)We owe 22million for the hotel & other such properties when we would rather have had money spent on the team

2)We owe 26million to McCabe & sons which I assume he is now draining out of the club along with inevitable interest?!

3)McCabe wants others to invest money into the club but is not willing to put anymore in himself....

4)Our wage bill is second to none, yet we have a threadbare squad which is reliant upon loan players, a mediocre strike force, a rapidly deminishing defence - in terms of numbers and quality and individually+collectively (other than a few clubs in this division) the worst midfield players in the league.
< In conclusion:- we are either being ripped off or lied to!>

5)They think promotion is realistic - Birch doesnt know anything about football.

6)The wage bill we be slashed again in the summer - well at least that is a fair and honest statement.......

7) Spin, spin, spin, I'm spinning around/"you have to cut your cloth accordingly" x 5,000,000

The club is increasingly testing my patience, if it is not pointless drivel & pathetic excuses coming out of the club, it is the illusion that McCabe is a god when he blew our chances of promotion by installing the worst manager known to man in Robson, than replaced him with the worst footballing manager in Blackwell, has never really been fully committed into spending money & focussing efforts into the playing staff at the lane in appose to property- inevitably McCabes nonshallent attitude towards promotion and FOOTBALLING success will see us plummet into the same regions of squad quality, league position & crowd attendance as when he first took over. But hey at least we have a hotel and a bigger ground...
This is the backdrop of the more pressing priority (for me anyway) which is what is happening on the pitch. What is happening is that I am spending hundreds of pounds to go travel to London for a midweek game for one of the worst displays I have seen since the week before... pub team defending, two target men up front, three similar midfield players chase shadows for 90 minutes, no football, no movement , no quality(all blackwells signings), no nothing.
I spent hundreds on a season ticket to see no football or enterprise when we pick up a result thinking we might as well wear balaclavas every week- playing poorly and get away with it. No sense of achievement that we have earned a result. Frankly the last time I was happy with a performance was the preston away leg in the play-offs last season. And then i have to scream at my radio after listening to blackwell say rubbish like 'we had loads of chances' and 'we dominated'
The fact is if you measure success by promotion, while ever the two Kevins are at the helm we will never be successful.
I am really disappointed with whats happening this season, if you would listen to radio sheffield they would have you believe that if you havent got parachute payments than thats the be all and end all.... look at forest, leicester, cardiff, swansea, blackpool - have they got parachute payments? have they got russian billionaires bankrolling them - we are either better placed or at a same level off the field yet we have worse players & worse performances and as far as im concerned no chance of promotion.
I have wrote letters, i have spoke until im blue in the face, this is not the club i have come to love, i am not renewing my season ticket next year if they are still here... something needs to be done!!!!!

 

[Sothall_Blade]

I argued the toss back but kinda think he's actually right?.... in the current climate! Maybe when the recession ends, we may start making money and our assets are worth sumat again. What assets do we have and what are they worth?

I was wondering the same and was hoping that some financial/property expert could explain. If we've borrowed £22M against "non-football assets, hotel and other property around ground" then surely that propery must be worth considerably more than £22M.

(I couldn't go to the bank and borrow £500K secured against a £200K house. Could I?)

That being the case, wouldn't now be the right time for United to sell all the property, pay off the bank debt, pay off most of McCabe's loans and go back to being a football club again?

The wage bill may still need to be reduced to reach a break even position but the big reduction in debt interest payments would offset that by a large amount and limit the damage caused to the football side.

Why can't we just do that? Can somebody please explain?

 

[mattbianco1]

That being the case, wouldn't now be the right time for United to sell all the property, pay off the bank debt, pay off most of McCabe's loans and go back to being a football club again?

Why can't we just do that? Can somebody please explain?

I think that in the long run, when the property market booms again, which it will we could be loaded! But does that mean SUFC or Mr McCabe PLC? Do we own all of these clubs and buildings if McCabe does sell to the highest bidder? If so when they start making money does that mean the money will be injected into the team?

 

[super_pig]

i'll just say this .. if our wages are second only to parachute teams then we should only be second to parachute teams in results and quality

 

[robhundall]

I was wondering the same and was hoping that some financial/property expert could explain. If we've borrowed £22M against "non-football assets, hotel and other property around ground" then surely that propery must be worth considerably more than £22M.

(I couldn't go to the bank and borrow £500K secured against a £200K house. Could I?)

That being the case, wouldn't now be the right time for United to sell all the property, pay off the bank debt, pay off most of McCabe's loans and go back to being a football club again?

The wage bill may still need to be reduced to reach a break even position but the big reduction in debt interest payments would offset that by a large amount and limit the damage caused to the football side.

Why can't we just do that? Can somebody please explain?

How many people want to sell their property now? What's the point of making a massive loss in a weakened economy?

In particular, the hotel has a tenant paying the rent. Why on earth would you want to sell off part of your freehold for a quick buck that would get swallowed up by the football team?

Don't be so short-sighted!

Really this just boils down to the football club being run sensibly and cutting it's cloth accordingly. Throwing more money at it guarantees nothing, as several teams in the Championship will learn at the end of this season when they fail to gain promotion.

The football on the pitch, whether successful or not, and whether attractive or not, depends on so many factors that have nothing to do with money. As I said before, luck plays a big part in football!

Rob

 

[Sothall_Blade]

How many people want to sell their property now? What's the point of making a massive loss in a weakened economy? In particular, the hotel has a tenant paying the rent. Why on earth would you want to sell off part of your freehold for a quick buck that would get swallowed up by the football team?

Erm....because Sheffield United IS a football club not a property developer?

I do take your point but if it came to a straight choice between the club selling an house it owns for £1.5M or Jamie Ward for £1.5M. How many fans would say "get Wardy flogged, that house might be worth £2M in another 5 years?

Who is to say that the hotel will gain value? Is it actually making a profit? How much of this profit are United getting? Does it outweigh the interest we're paying on the loans? What if our tenant Copthorne can't make the hotel pay and decide to pull out? What if the club get stuck with a worthless white elephant? The bloke who helped pay for it wants his money back, so instead of selling 10 players to repay him, why not just sell ONE hotel?

If you had borrowed money to invest in a string of properties and the lender asked for his money back. Would you sell some of the properties or would you flog your car?

 

[madeinsheffield]

I do take your point but if it came to a straight choice between the club selling an house it owns for £1.5M or Jamie Ward for £1.5M. How many fans would say "get Wardy flogged, that house might be worth £2M in another 5 years?

I take your point but if he's part of a good progressive footballing side Wardy will be worth more than £1.5 in a few years, take Jags for instance, he went up and up in value while he learnt his trade and we made good use of him, same should have been done with the Kyles, they would have been worth more than £10m between them or whatever we have been told we agreed with spurs

 

[Sothall_Blade]

I take your point but if he's part of a good progressive footballing side Wardy will be worth more than £1.5 in a few years, take Jags for instance, he went up and up in value while he learnt his trade and we made good use of him, same should have been done with the Kyles, they would have been worth more than £10m between them or whatever we have been told we agreed with spurs

Yes, that’s what I'm saying. Sell the house and keep Ward! Sheffield United is a football club not a property business. The value of players can go down as well as up but at least we get the pleasure of seeing them on the pitch and a chance of success. How many Blades fans have gleaned any enjoyment from our ownership of a Gym in Staines?

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Not what Birch said but the way he said it. Also I can't remember the last positive words to come out of McCabe's mouth, come to think of it I can't remember the last time McCabe actually spoke to the fans in a meaningful way. Carry on clapping fella.

Haha I'm a clapper now.

 

[robhundall]

Erm....because Sheffield United IS a football club not a property developer?

I do take your point but if it came to a straight choice between the club selling an house it owns for £1.5M or Jamie Ward for £1.5M. How many fans would say "get Wardy flogged, that house might be worth £2M in another 5 years?

Who is to say that the hotel will gain value? Is it actually making a profit? How much of this profit are United getting? Does it outweigh the interest we're paying on the loans? What if our tenant Copthorne can't make the hotel pay and decide to pull out? What if the club get stuck with a worthless white elephant? The bloke who helped pay for it wants his money back, so instead of selling 10 players to repay him, why not just sell ONE hotel?

If you had borrowed money to invest in a string of properties and the lender asked for his money back. Would you sell some of the properties or would you flog your car?

Unless the property is making a massive loss and the football business is financing it, which it is not, you have to completely disassociate the football business and the property business.

In most eras, property will earn money which can help to prop up a football business. The current recession is an anomaly, and you don't want to bail out of any property in negative equity.

Football businesses almost always run at a loss. If they make money then it will soon go to pay off loans or, if you're lucky, better players.


Football is cyclical. There being a fixed number of places in each league, there will always be a downside as well as an upside. LOTS of clubs are struggling at the moment and United are one of them, even if it is far from critical.

Selling long-term low-risk assets, such as property, is nonsensical. Selling short-term high-risk assets, such as players, is astute.

How many clubs lose millions each year by paying players huge sums of money whilst they are long-term injured? In my opinion, the deal we got for the Kyles was astounding. The failure was not selling Kilgallon a year sooner and getting £4 or £5 million for him then.

I don't think there is a need to sell Ward at the moment, but if a Premiership club had put in a £4m bid in during the January transfer window then he would have gone.

Clubs in the Championship are always going to lose their better players. We just have to have a good manager who can bring in replacements when the big assets do go. I think Blackwell has been unlucky with injuries this season, though his style of attacking play is obviously not thoughtful or attractive.

Rob

 

[Grecian2000]

Selling short-term high-risk assets, such as players, is astute.

Which is OK in principle, until you have to put 11 of them out on the field to win a football match.

 

[Compound_Legend]

I don't think there is a need to sell Ward at the moment, but if a Premiership club had put in a £4 bid in during the January transfer window then he would have gone.

A whole 4 of your english pounds ? If it had been Terry Robinson,it would have been £2.50,a bag of Cheesy Wotsits,and one of Trenton Wiggan's old jockstraps...

 

[alcoblade]

and the rest is owed to mccabe and only pigs and micalijo think he will pull £26m out of the club and leave us stranded

....but McCabe is taking this money back, plus between 5 and 10% interest. It's not Micalijo and the pigs who think this, it's an absolute fact. Clearly he'll take it at a rate that the club can afford (which will mean much reduced spending in future) but make no mistake, he's taking it back.

Unlike the porkers, our money has gone on assets that post recession, could generate income that more than offsets the interest on the loans. Our Turnover is more that twice that of the minnow porkers, which at least gives us room for manoeuvre.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

In most eras, property will earn money which can help to prop up a football business. The current recession is an anomaly, and you don't want to bail out of any property in negative equity.

But what could put us in the shit, like lots of businesses, is cash-flow. We might make profit based on property valuation, but a hotel is more than just a property. It's a business that employs people and has associated costs. It can lose lots of money, whatever the state of the property market.

UTB

 

[robhundall]

But what could put us in the shit, like lots of businesses, is cash-flow. We might make profit based on property valuation, but a hotel is more than just a property. It's a business that employs people and has associated costs. It can lose lots of money, whatever the state of the property market.

UTB

But if the hotel makes operating losses, it will be the tenants' problem not the football club's.

Fine. Sell the hotel.

Should they get any more money for it than they owe on the mortgage, which I doubt in the current market, the money recouped will be spent on players' wages. That's the bottom line - any money genererated will eventually be spent on players and their wages. It all leaks out of the club.


Then, why don't we sell the ground to that nice Mr Booth in Rotherham?

Who needs assets? Jam today!

 

[judge]

....but McCabe is taking this money back, plus between 5 and 10% interest. It's not Micalijo and the pigs who think this, it's an absolute fact. Clearly he'll take it at a rate that the club can afford (which will mean much reduced spending in future) but make no mistake, he's taking it back.

Unlike the porkers, our money has gone on assets that post recession, could generate income that more than offsets the interest on the loans. Our Turnover is more that twice that of the minnow porkers, which at least gives us room for manoeuvre.

UTB

if he was doing it for profit he would take all the £50m back wouldnt he? and i think you know full well that i meant take the lot out inone go ,he is perfectly entitled to take his money out plus interest

i bet he regrets ever putting it in in the first place with all the abuse hes had to put up with over the years

 

[alcoblade]

if he was doing it for profit he would take all the £50m back wouldnt he? and i think you know full well that i meant take the lot out inone go ,he is perfectly entitled to take his money out plus interest

i bet he regrets ever putting it in in the first place with all the abuse hes had to put up with over the years

I think McCabe is taking back everything he's put into the Blades, plus handsome interest. I have no information to suggest he's put £50M in, do you? We're £50M in debt, we've had £25M from Tevez and £10m from Kyles. Are you suggesting the club have squandered even more cash than we're aware of?

I regret him putting the money in, we could have taken a bank loand at similar rates of interest, and remained a football club rather than a property company. Over the years I haven't given him stick, I've been a massive supporter. It's only when the extent of the debt (and the interest being recouped on it) and what we've spent it on has become clear that I've lost faith in him.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

But if the hotel makes operating losses, it will be the tenants' problem not the football club's.

Fine. Sell the hotel.

What do you base that on? The hotel lost money last year and that was in our accounts. I think you're misinformed fella.

Should they get any more money for it than they owe on the mortgage, which I doubt in the current market, the money recouped will be spent on players' wages. That's the bottom line - any money generated will eventually be spent on players and their wages. It all leaks out of the club.

Hopefully yes. But make no mistake, any losses will be at the expense of players wages. And that's what's happening right now and for the foreseable future. We can only speculate about how that might change.

nice Mr Booth in Rotherham?

Who needs assets? Jam today!

Also in English? We have a football ground to play our football and with other assets on the land to generate income. That's fine. But it doesn't dictate that we need a worldwide property empire, with all the associated risks.

UTB

 

[lenners]

if he was doing it for profit he would take all the £50m back wouldnt he? and i think you know full well that i meant take the lot out inone go ,he is perfectly entitled to take his money out plus interest

i bet he regrets ever putting it in in the first place with all the abuse hes had to put up with over the years

I bet he doesn't. It's opened lots of doors for him in other countries for starters and when he's done I'd bet he'll walk away with a profit.

 

[lenners]

As regards the hotel, was it clear in the accounts exactly what the arrangement is with Copthorne?

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

What do you base that on? The hotel lost money last year and that was in our accounts. I think you're misinformed fella.

Come on Alco, the figures in the accounts for the hotel were for its opening 6 months only. Surely you can see that you need to see a full years of trading before making a decision on it's cost/benefit.
Most similar types of venture you'd only look to break even in the first 18 months, yet you want profit in the first 6 most of which were out of season.

 

[alcoblade]

Come on Alco, the figures in the accounts for the hotel were for its opening 6 months only. Surely you can see that you need to see a full years of trading before making a decision on it's cost/benefit.
Most similar types of venture you'd only look to break even in the first 18 months, yet you want profit in the first 6 most of which were out of season.

I absolutley agree fella. But the initial point was that we couldn't lose with it. We can, and we are. It IS to be expected with any new business. But it is by no means certain that it will make money. Any money it loses, costs us.

That is all.

UTB

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Out of all our off pitch-ventures we have the hotel seems the most sensible medium-long term revenue generator. As long as in the early days the mortgage can be covered I'm happy with the loans taken out against it.