Agm

[Gingerblade]

Whats all this talk by the porkers that were 37m in debt? Sorry if this has been discussed but cant find any posts talking about it

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

total debt of the business, not just the football club

 

[Gingerblade]

total debt of the business, not just the football club

Cheers mate, is this expected to be as high as it is?

And, is it a major problem?

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Cheers mate, is this expected to be as high as it is?

And, is it a major problem?

Yes it's expected to be that high, and no it isn't a major problem to the football club. Football debt is next to nothing, the total debt includes the hotel which we have a contract with the operator where they will pay the debt but this obviously isn't included.

Obviously we don't have millions and millions to spend but we aren't in the Wednesday situation and they are now tied into buying a £20 Million lipstick to stick on their pig.

 

[Gingerblade]

Thanks Flatulent, just needed it in plain english as the pigs think were going under!

 

[beechblade]

Thanks Flatulent, just needed it in plain english as the pigs think were going under!

Yes they are just trying to make shit up because this is the only thing that they have to focus on because don't properly understand business as proven by the fat porker in the chairmans seat. I tried explaining this to some earlier but they just kept harping on about our clubs resources so I gave them what I could on it and what I could take from out of my report but they wouldn't take it that this was our turnovers and profits and not the the other aspects of the Scarbrough Holdings groups and what not. But hey let them clutch at straws. Interesting thing was when I asked about their footballing debt and none of them could give me a definitive answer on how much shit they are in, plus with a nice shiny new bill on top of it.

 

[Gingerblade]

Yes they are just trying to make shit up because this is the only thing that they have to focus on because don't properly understand business as proven by the fat porker in the chairmans seat. I tried explaining this to some earlier but they just kept harping on about our clubs resources so I gave them what I could on it and what I could take from out of my report but they wouldn't take it that this was our turnovers and profits and not the the other aspects of the Scarbrough Holdings groups and what not. But hey let them clutch at straws. Interesting thing was when I asked about their footballing debt and none of them could give me a definitive answer on how much shit they are in, plus with a nice shiny new bill on top of it.

Thought it was them making crap up, as i didnt see a thread about our debt on here i thought it was fishy so thats why i asked.

They dont have a clue, and it would make my decade to see that lot relegated back to the third tier!

 

[Micalijo]

Thought it was them making crap up, as i didnt see a thread about our debt on here i thought it was fishy so thats why i asked.

They dont have a clue, and it would make my decade to see that lot relegated back to the third tier!

I've posted a number of comments about our debt, and it has been debated in length on here by alot of us. Why you think it isn't serious is beyond me.

Why are property related debts less serious than football debts? We aren't going under but it is pretty clear that the property side of things is not going to plan and could be going seriously wrong. SUFC plc have huge property related debts and the assets we rely on to support this debt are depreciating in value - I suspect alot quicker than the bank would like.

 

[Micalijo]

Yes it's expected to be that high, and no it isn't a major problem to the football club. Football debt is next to nothing, the total debt includes the hotel which we have a contract with the operator where they will pay the debt but this obviously isn't included.

Obviously we don't have millions and millions to spend but we aren't in the Wednesday situation and they are now tied into buying a £20 Million lipstick to stick on their pig.

I think you are wrong to say that Copthorne are paying off all the debt. We get an annual fee from them - they effectively rent it off us. No way will Copthorne be paying enough to cover all our costs of construction - if they were they might as well have built it themselves. They won't pay for it all and then walk away leaving us with the asset in my opinion.

 

[alcoblade]

Yes it's expected to be that high, and no it isn't a major problem to the football club. Football debt is next to nothing, the total debt includes the hotel which we have a contract with the operator where they will pay the debt but this obviously isn't included.

Obviously we don't have millions and millions to spend but we aren't in the Wednesday situation and they are now tied into buying a £20 Million lipstick to stick on their pig.

whilst I don't think it's a problem, the way we're trying to pass it off as "football debt" and "business debt" is just more spin for me.

Southampton tried the same argument, and were rewarded with a huge points deduction. In the eye of the football world, and people wanting their money back, it's one and the same thing. The solace is that we've got income producing assets it return, unlike the porkers.

UTB

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I do understand that aspect Alco, but as the majority of our business debt is the hotel and that is secured with our agreement with the operators that isn't ever going to be a problem. Basically I think McCabe has done a doozy of a deal on it where they have all the risk and we get the middle to long term benefits.
Southampton couldn't manage their debt so were screwed because neither aspects (football club nor business)were sustainable.
Basically if we keep the football club on a sensible footing we will be fine.
Compare this to Wednesday who have £20 Million debt with a £20 Million upgrade to pay for. If McCabe is right and that the FA are giving no grants out then the Wednesday are back asking the government for grants for learning centres and I can't see the Torys handing them out if they get in.

 

[alcoblade]

comparisons with Wendy aside, for the first time I'm starting to question McCabe's worth to us. We haven't moveed on one iota football wise, and we're now £37M in debt. Is the hotel and enterpirse center really worth it?

He's brought us affordable football and expanded the fanbase, which isn't to be sniffed at. But it's come at real cost, and none of it was a gift. The 10% loans are really difficult to swallow.

UTB

 

[Houso]

He's brought us affordable football and expanded the fanbase, which isn't to be sniffed at.

We don't know how lucky we are with this.

 

[Micalijo]

I do understand that aspect Alco, but as the majority of our business debt is the hotel and that is secured with our agreement with the operators that isn't ever going to be a problem. Basically I think McCabe has done a doozy of a deal on it where they have all the risk and we get the middle to long term benefits.
Southampton couldn't manage their debt so were screwed because neither aspects (football club nor business)were sustainable.
Basically if we keep the football club on a sensible footing we will be fine.
Compare this to Wednesday who have £20 Million debt with a £20 Million upgrade to pay for. If McCabe is right and that the FA are giving no grants out then the Wednesday are back asking the government for grants for learning centres and I can't see the Torys handing them out if they get in.

Bob I really do admire your devotion to McCabe but I really think you are going way over the top about this hotel deal. Do you think Copthorne are a total set of mugs? I think you are doing Copthorne a massive disservice if you think they would sign a deal that saw them take on all the risk and pay for the construction of a hotel that they won't own at the end of the contract.

Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean about the terms of the deal being so wildly in our favour?

 

[alcoblade]

We don't know how lucky we are with this.

No, I don't want to downplay that bit. I take my 2 lads and the entry price has definitley allowed us to win over a generation of new Blades.

UTB

 

[beechblade]

Bob I really do admire your devotion to McCabe but I really think you are going way over the top about this hotel deal. Do you think Copthorne are a total set of mugs? I think you are doing Copthorne a massive disservice if you think they would sign a deal that saw them take on all the risk and pay for the construction of a hotel that they won't own at the end of the contract.

Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean about the terms of the deal being so wildly in our favour?

I can't comment on the hotel stuff but if the club keeps running at a managable profit and keeps making small but effective profits then that should be all that counts to those on the footballing side. Remember in those accounts there was nothing released about the turnovers or profits KM's own company just the blades business.

 

[alcoblade]

I can't comment on the hotel stuff but if the club keeps running at a managable profit and keeps making small but effective profits then that should be all that counts to those on the footballing side. Remember in those accounts there was nothing released about the turnovers or profits KM's own company just the blades business.

But we don't keep making small profits - we would have lost about £20M this season other than for Tevez and the sale our 2 prize assets.. I don't think we're in a mess, but the separation of "football debt" is just more spin.

Our wagebill is still far too high, and we're clearly paying some very average players some very handsome salaries.

UTB

 

[beechblade]

But we don't keep making small profits - we would have lost about £20M this season other than for Tevez and the sale our 2 prize assets.. I don't think we're in a mess, but the separation of "football debt" is just more spin.

Our wagebill is still far too high, and we're clearly paying some very average players some very handsome salaries.

UTB

Dropped from 15.7 to 12 mill on the reports, I'd be suprised if it hasn't dropped a little more though? and selling assests as we know is United but if that keeps us in the profit and far from struggling then it probably has to happen at times, I don't like it as they were good young talent.
Haven't we only recieved 1.5mil from the tevez stuff, if so the profit to me mainly just comes from the sale of the two kyles?

I don't for one believe the spin the Wednesday fans are clutching at, i've only just started taking interest in the business stuff more recently so can't comment on it all.

 

[Micalijo]

I can't comment on the hotel stuff but if the club keeps running at a managable profit and keeps making small but effective profits then that should be all that counts to those on the footballing side. Remember in those accounts there was nothing released about the turnovers or profits KM's own company just the blades business.

Beech - have you got a set of accounts? We own 50% of a property company with huge debts (Blades Realty). Those figures are included in the plc accounts.

The profit and loss is pretty important obviously but banks will look at balance sheets and cash flows. The P&L forms one part of the balance sheet. SUFC plc balance sheet is very hard to understand but suffice to say we have huge debts and Wendy fans are not talking rubbish on this one. OK they are being dramatical and we do have property assets to offset these debts but it's fair to say they are struggling to have the impact McCabe hoped they would. As a result we are no better off than loads of other CCC clubs and I think worse off because property problems are putting pressure on the football side of things. That'smy take on it, others think differently and fair enough obviously.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

comparisons with Wendy aside, for the first time I'm starting to question McCabe's worth to us. We haven't moveed on one iota football wise, and we're now £37M in debt. Is the hotel and enterpirse center really worth it?

He's brought us affordable football and expanded the fanbase, which isn't to be sniffed at. But it's come at real cost, and none of it was a gift. The 10% loans are really difficult to swallow.

UTB

Yes the hotel and enterprise centre are worth it but they are longer term returns. At the minute the enterprise centre has just really started to make good profit (isn't it nearly a million a season per centre?). The hotel's mortgage costs have been offset to the operators for the next 15-20 years by which time the amount outstanding will be negligible.
You also bring up the 10% loans which is a little bit harsh as you are looking at it in domestic terms. As someone on here posted a 10% return without a time-scale on a debt isn't such a bad deal. Over 2 years its only 5%, how long a go did we get this debt and what was it for? Tevez legal costs?

McCabe has made mistakes and certainly isn't a Abramovich type figure he wants a return from his investment but I don't think he is excessive in his demands.
We have affordable football, amazing season ticket offers for kids, attendances increasing year on year and the stadium having vast improvements over his reign. We have a large turnover for a club in our league and yes we have a sizeable debt which are assets easily cover will about £20 Million to spare. Compare that to where we were a few years ago.
The only thing he hasn't done is bankrolled the onfield activities and made it have to balance itself. But that isn't exactly the worst idea in the world as there are many examples of clubs who have gambled and failed. There are even clubs who gambled, won and are now looking at a big loss (Portsmouth, Hull).
I don't like the fact that we had no real football man on the board because I believe this is where McCabe is weakest making onfield decisions but he has now remedied that with the appointment of Birch.

 

[Micalijo]

Yes the hotel and enterprise centre are worth it but they are longer term returns. At the minute the enterprise centre has just really started to make good profit (isn't it nearly a million a season per centre?). The hotel's mortgage costs have been offset to the operators for the next 15-20 years by which time the amount outstanding will be negligible.
You also bring up the 10% loans which is a little bit harsh as you are looking at it in domestic terms. As someone on here posted a 10% return without a time-scale on a debt isn't such a bad deal. Over 2 years its only 5%, how long a go did we get this debt and what was it for? Tevez legal costs?

McCabe has made mistakes and certainly isn't a Abramovich type figure he wants a return from his investment but I don't think he is excessive in his demands.
We have affordable football, amazing season ticket offers for kids, attendances increasing year on year and the stadium having vast improvements over his reign. We have a large turnover for a club in our league and yes we have a sizeable debt which are assets easily cover will about £20 Million to spare. Compare that to where we were a few years ago.
The only thing he hasn't done is bankrolled the onfield activities and made it have to balance itself. But that isn't exactly the worst idea in the world as there are many examples of clubs who have gambled and failed. There are even clubs who gambled, won and are now looking at a big loss (Portsmouth, Hull).
I don't like the fact that we had no real football man on the board because I believe this is where McCabe is weakest making onfield decisions but he has now remedied that with the appointment of Birch.

What do you mean 'domestic' terms?

McCabe loaned us £1,487,463 at 10% in January 2009. Interest of £72,456 was charegd through the accounts as an expense. This has not been paid in cash to McCabe yet. Page 63 says that the interest is secured against 'certain deferred player sale receipts.'

What's this 5%? I haven't got a clue what you are getting at? Can you help me please? It's a genuine question. If the loan is not paid back to McCabe until say January 2012 he will get 3 lots of £148,746 - ie his annual interest entitlement over 3 years.

I'm sorry Bob you are making comments about the hotel and the accounts and I don't see where you get them from. Where do you get this from that Copthorne are paying all our costs?

Scarboro loaned sufc plc £6,227,000 in Jan 2009 at 8% per annum. The loan will be paid back with the first £7m of WHU cash.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I am saying has it been quoted that the interest rate is 10%pa?

I'm pretty sure the deal with the hotel was in the meeting with McCabe

 

[Micalijo]

Bob - another question for you please.

If the Copthorne deal is so good, why did Scarborough lend £2m to Sheffield United (Hotel) Limited in October 2008 - receiving interest of LIBOR plus 4%?

Maybe it is doing so well that McCabe thought he'd get a bit of interest back on it but then again the company may have needed cash to meet banking demands? We'll never know but it's difficult to reconcile your comments that the Copthorne deal is self-financing in terms of no risk to SUFC.

 

[Micalijo]

I am saying has it been quoted that the interest rate is 10%pa?

I'm pretty sure the deal with the hotel was in the meeting with McCabe

Page 63 of the accounts say 10%. It doesn't say per annum but no way will it mean that interest stops after one year. Not a chance.

 

[Micalijo]

Yes the hotel and enterprise centre are worth it but they are longer term returns. At the minute the enterprise centre has just really started to make good profit (isn't it nearly a million a season per centre?).

No it isn't.

It turned over £804k and made a profit of £329k in the year to June 2009. (page 49).

 

[Houso]

But it made a profit...?

 

[beechblade]

Beech - have you got a set of accounts? We own 50% of a property company with huge debts (Blades Realty). Those figures are included in the plc accounts.

The profit and loss is pretty important obviously but banks will look at balance sheets and cash flows. The P&L forms one part of the balance sheet. SUFC plc balance sheet is very hard to understand but suffice to say we have huge debts and Wendy fans are not talking rubbish on this one. OK they are being dramatical and we do have property assets to offset these debts but it's fair to say they are struggling to have the impact McCabe hoped they would. As a result we are no better off than loads of other CCC clubs and I think worse off because property problems are putting pressure on the football side of things. That'smy take on it, others think differently and fair enough obviously.

Yes I got one but trying to get my head round all of it confuses me again I'm new to reading the buisness side of it, in the Blades Realty section it says its run at a profit of 900k?? You have to remember though if that the property down turn is hard at the minute but as soon as a corner starts to turn and if we can manage our debt the companies stand to make a profit when things begin to boom hopefully sooner rather than laterof course.

 

[beightonblade]

read the Beano .............its got pictures too.

 

[Micalijo]

It would appear so yes. I just want to highlight that it doesn't make anywhere like what some on here make out.

Page 49 says the hotel made a loss of £534k.

 

[beechblade]

It turned over £804k and made a profit of £329k in the year to June 2009. (page 49).

It only opened in January 09 didn't it? or have i missed read.

The thing I'm on about Micalijo is that its managable and the stuff wednesdities are trying to spout is its not, and they are stating half truths on most of the stuff quoted.