Our beautiful, and ever so slightly bonkers system....

[Stretch]

..Continues to confound our opponents and amaze the neutral pundits.

Listening to Goodman tonight was almost comical when he was commenting on the replay of the goal.. 'You have, and I never thought I would hear myself say this...an overlapping centre half! Look, there is Cranie! There is your centre half!!!'

Last season the consensus was that opponents has started to figure us out, normally by leaving pace high up the field to exploit the gaps when our defence charged forward. But I don't see that happening as much now, and I am not sure why? Have we tweaked what we do to prevent this or is it just down to better individual players in key positions. Egan's contribution can't be underestimated here of course, or is it due to Norwood? Would welcome opinions from anyone with a better brain than mine on here.

I also find myself wondering who ultimately we have to thank for it? Wilder once said that he didn't over think tactics [although I am sure he was being deliberately modest] where as Knill was the one to sit up all night watching football from around the world, mulling over tactics and systems. I wonder if this was one of Knill's wackier suggestions after a late one watching old footage of a Dutch side play total football or something similar? Most pundits however seem to think it is unique and never done previously.The only team I saw do anything remotely similar was Cotteril's Brizzle team, and that didn't really feature overloads on the wings, more just getting Flint into attacking positions as much as possible from what I recall.

At the end of the day whoever came up with it, I am eternally grateful. Not only have they given us an incredible spectacle over the last few seasons, but I think they have possibly made a significant contribution to the evolution of the game. If we go up and continue using this system in the PL, with success, then I honestly think it could be talked about for decades to come, and numerous teams will copy it.

 

[ChemEngBlade]

Begs the question, would (will) it work in the Prem? With better & quicker players reading the danger, better & quicker players in the counter attack, it’d be interesting to see how it did over a season

 

[Scooter_mcgavin]

Moore should have visited pork talk. They have the key to beat our system.

It's simple really.

 

[Sheff de party]

I honestly think it’s working better because we have more of the ball. Norwood might not look like he does much sometimes, but he sets us up to attack and he’s the fulcrum of everything we do.

We still get overrun in midfield and fail to get a tackle in sometimes, but we’re so fit that we can get back and set up again. But we are under pressure a lot less because Norwood is on the ball a lot.

Also Egan is a mountain disguised as a man and people keep trying to scale it and bouncing off. Which helps

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Begs the question, would (will) it work in the Prem? With better & quicker players reading the danger, better & quicker players in the counter attack, it’d be interesting to see how it did over a season

Why wouldn't it? I can just see Pep now saying we just couldn't cope with the attacking centre backs.

 

[Mumbo]

At worst it’s evolution at best it’s a revolution if it was a foreign manager we’d never hear the last of it.
That assist/cross by Cranie who ran the length of the pitch was nowt short of incredible.

 

[ChemEngBlade]

Why wouldn't it? I can just see Pep now saying we just couldn't cope with the attacking centre backs.

I’m not saying it wouldn’t, it’s a system thus far most managers have failed to contain

 

[Isaw Joeshaw]

I honestly think it’s working better because we have more of the ball. Norwood might not look like he does much sometimes, but he sets us up to attack and he’s the fulcrum of everything we do.

We still get overrun in midfield and fail to get a tackle in sometimes, but we’re so fit that we can get back and set up again. But we are under pressure a lot less because Norwood is on the ball a lot.

Also Egan is a mountain disguised as a man and people keep trying to scale it and bouncing off. Which helps

I couldn't agree more .

The difference between last years often shambolic defensive displays ( and some on the pub league which we got away with ) is mainly down to Norwood's protection of the back three and Egan's all round ability as a centre half .

Outstanding signings .

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I’m not saying it wouldn’t, it’s a system thus far most managers have failed to contain

And strangely not tried to adopt.

 

[BalancedBlade]

Been watching it for 3 yrs now and I still don't get it.

I have stopped trying now, just keep turning up, enjoying it and smile at my piggy friends on Monday morning.

 

[Igor]

On this subject, how would you think the England team would fare if we took up the Wilder/Knill methodology?. Could it lead to the seemingly elusive World Cup/ Euros win we’ve all longed for?

 

[ChemEngBlade]

And strangely not tried to adopt.

Maybe one of those things that seems mental to say out load but works in practice

 

[PokerBlade]

The difference last season wasn't teams figuring us out, it was that our squad was too weak. We played too many games with Evans and Lundstram and had the likes of Holmes and Leonard as back up. None of those players, maybe bar Lundstram if things get really bad, could get onto the pitch right now. For all people have given Johnson a hard time, he's better back up than we had last year and has got us through a game against an excellent WBA side with a clean sheet.

Tonight we had several players out again, a forced change in game, and the squad still had enough quality to see it out.

Can it work at a higher level? Of course. When you see teams like Pulis' Stoke it can take seasons to change the style after he inevitably goes because he backs the squad with big, physical players, drills a certain mentality, and the whole team needs to be reworked from the ground up. The big positive with how we play is that all we'll ever need to do is tweak things slightly and steadily try to improve the personnel. It'll never be a case of "Shit, Allardyce has kept us from getting relegated but how the hell do we improve the standard of football?".

We might come up against better opposition in the future, and there's no kidding yourself that the top Prem teams can't tear you apart, but the style is never going to be a problem under Wilder.

 

[blade too long]

Begs the question, would (will) it work in the Prem? With better & quicker players reading the danger, better & quicker players in the counter attack, it’d be interesting to see how it did over a season

Who says they are better

 

[Topplayersleave]

Organised chaos they called it on sky a couple of months ago

 

[Sheffsteel]

Agree, even Leeds manager Bielsa has admitted he’s a fan of Chris Wilder.
Said something about it’s rare that you see unusual systems in world football.
He’s says he’s previously tried to do something very similiar years ago to Wilders system but he couldn’t do it,

 

[metalblade]

I don't think any of the TV pundits have worked out how we play yet, they still wonder what the hell a centre back is doing overlapping and getting a cross in. More than that they are incredulous when a wing back gets on the end of that cross and puts it in the net. When a wing back ends up attacking the other side of the penalty box it just blows their mind. Yes it can look chaotic at times but it works and it's great to watch.
I think we could have the next Brian Clough in Wilder

 

[finlaytheblade]

Begs the question, would (will) it work in the Prem? With better & quicker players reading the danger, better & quicker players in the counter attack, it’d be interesting to see how it did over a season

In my opinion we have better players in key positions and players like Stevens and Sharp have improved there games.
Our system is evolving and the players have bought into it 100%.
Let's not forget the character and effort which went into tonights performance.
West Brom bullied us a bit 2nd half at the lane no cha ce of that tonight,Wilder has really got the squad up for it, ,could it takers all the way. Why not *!!!

 

[CarlMcBlade]

On this subject, how would you think the England team would fare if we took up the Wilder/Knill methodology?. Could it lead to the seemingly elusive World Cup/ Euros win we’ve all longed for?

If our Chrissie gets us established in the Prem. l think we’ll find out because he’ll be England manager.

 

[diode_blade]

You do realize of course that in 3 yrs time the pigswill be saying that they invented the system in about 1066 and we copied them.

 

[Houston_Blade]

The difference last season wasn't teams figuring us out, it was that our squad was too weak. We played too many games with Evans and Lundstram and had the likes of Holmes and Leonard as back up. None of those players, maybe bar Lundstram if things get really bad, could get onto the pitch right now. For all people have given Johnson a hard time, he's better back up than we had last year and has got us through a game against an excellent WBA side with a clean sheet.

Tonight we had several players out again, a forced change in game, and the squad still had enough quality to see it out.

Can it work at a higher level? Of course. When you see teams like Pulis' Stoke it can take seasons to change the style after he inevitably goes because he backs the squad with big, physical players, drills a certain mentality, and the whole team needs to be reworked from the ground up. The big positive with how we play is that all we'll ever need to do is tweak things slightly and steadily try to improve the personnel. It'll never be a case of "Shit, Allardyce has kept us from getting relegated but how the hell do we improve the standard of football?".

We might come up against better opposition in the future, and there's no kidding yourself that the top Prem teams can't tear you apart, but the style is never going to be a problem under Wilder.

This is spot on.

If football teams failure was all down to 'being worked out' then every single game would be attritional and it would be a terrible spectacle. As you said last season we ran out of steam with the first XI and didn't have strength in depth behind them, it's different this season.

Tactically since January we have adapted massively to give us various options in games. There were times last night where the ball just wanted booting down the other end or out for a throw in and we did it. At the start of the season we'd have tried to play out of certain situations and gotten ourselves in trouble against a good team like WBA. We still play the ball (mostly) in the right areas but we now have the nous to do something different when it's needed. As Wilder said, we still made some silly decisions in possession of the ball but our defensive display was immense so it didn't hurt us.

 

[grafikhaus]

If our Chrissie gets us established in the Prem. l think we’ll find out because he’ll be England manager.

Can you imagine CW wearing a waistcoat, blazer and FA tie? Ain't gonna happen. It'll be FLET - 'Frank Lampard's England Team'.

 

[Chali 2na]

And strangely not tried to adopt.

Most teams don't have centre backs who are good enough on the ball for it.

Who says they are better

Anyone with a brain?

 

[blade67]

..Continues to confound our opponents and amaze the neutral pundits.

Listening to Goodman tonight was almost comical when he was commenting on the replay of the goal.. 'You have, and I never thought I would hear myself say this...an overlapping centre half! Look, there is Cranie! There is your centre half!!!'

Last season the consensus was that opponents has started to figure us out, normally by leaving pace high up the field to exploit the gaps when our defence charged forward. But I don't see that happening as much now, and I am not sure why? Have we tweaked what we do to prevent this or is it just down to better individual players in key positions. Egan's contribution can't be underestimated here of course, or is it due to Norwood? Would welcome opinions from anyone with a better brain than mine on here.

I also find myself wondering who ultimately we have to thank for it? Wilder once said that he didn't over think tactics [although I am sure he was being deliberately modest] where as Knill was the one to sit up all night watching football from around the world, mulling over tactics and systems. I wonder if this was one of Knill's wackier suggestions after a late one watching old footage of a Dutch side play total football or something similar? Most pundits however seem to think it is unique and never done previously.The only team I saw do anything remotely similar was Cotteril's Brizzle team, and that didn't really feature overloads on the wings, more just getting Flint into attacking positions as much as possible from what I recall.

At the end of the day whoever came up with it, I am eternally grateful. Not only have they given us an incredible spectacle over the last few seasons, but I think they have possibly made a significant contribution to the evolution of the game. If we go up and continue using this system in the PL, with success, then I honestly think it could be talked about for decades to come, and numerous teams will copy it.

No expert on tactics but Norwood does play very deep at times. Certainly difficult to see on TV but watching live there is usually players covering from CM when the entire defence is in the opposition penalty area

 

[Tynemouth Blade]

..Continues to confound our opponents and amaze the neutral pundits.

Listening to Goodman tonight was almost comical when he was commenting on the replay of the goal.. 'You have, and I never thought I would hear myself say this...an overlapping centre half! Look, there is Cranie! There is your centre half!!!'

Last season the consensus was that opponents has started to figure us out, normally by leaving pace high up the field to exploit the gaps when our defence charged forward. But I don't see that happening as much now, and I am not sure why? Have we tweaked what we do to prevent this or is it just down to better individual players in key positions. Egan's contribution can't be underestimated here of course, or is it due to Norwood? Would welcome opinions from anyone with a better brain than mine on here.

I also find myself wondering who ultimately we have to thank for it? Wilder once said that he didn't over think tactics [although I am sure he was being deliberately modest] where as Knill was the one to sit up all night watching football from around the world, mulling over tactics and systems. I wonder if this was one of Knill's wackier suggestions after a late one watching old footage of a Dutch side play total football or something similar? Most pundits however seem to think it is unique and never done previously.The only team I saw do anything remotely similar was Cotteril's Brizzle team, and that didn't really feature overloads on the wings, more just getting Flint into attacking positions as much as possible from what I recall.

At the end of the day whoever came up with it, I am eternally grateful. Not only have they given us an incredible spectacle over the last few seasons, but I think they have possibly made a significant contribution to the evolution of the game. If we go up and continue using this system in the PL, with success, then I honestly think it could be talked about for decades to come, and numerous teams will copy it.

I think you've inadvertently hit the nail on the head: This is TOTAL FOOTBALL!

 

[blade too long]

[QUOTE="Chali 2na, post: 1942599, member: ]


Anyone with a brain?[/QUOTE]

Just happen to started in a league above
Some of them will be in here next season
Some the season after . There's a gap available for us in there

 

[snootyfenooty]

On this subject, how would you think the England team would fare if we took up the Wilder/Knill methodology?. Could it lead to the seemingly elusive World Cup/ Euros win we’ve all longed for?

Southgate made a half hearted attempt at it in the WC but apart from a few forays up the middle from H, he bottled it from going the whole hog, even with Walker at his disposal. However, if it does catch on you can guarantee it will be Southgate and not Wilder who gets the accolades for introducing the system.

 

[Punk Blade]

I think a lot of the success of this system is how the shape transforms when we get into the attacking third. Without the ball we adopt a fairly standard 5-3-2 shape with one of the midfield trio ahead of the others to press further up the pitch and be ready to launch a counter attack. With the ball, up to half way, it’s still a fairly standard 5-3-2 shape, with Norwood dropping deep to direct play and help us move up the field with the ball. Then something really weird happens.

In our half:

GK
RCB CB LCB
RWB Norwood LWB
Fleck
AM
ST ST
​

Attacking down right:

GK
CB LCB
Norwood Fleck​

RCB

LWB​

RWB AM
ST

ST
​

And obviously the inverse when attacking down the left.

The overload of four players in a tight area down the flank gives us an unusually high number of passing options when trying to pick our way through. The opposition full back would expect to deal with our wing back; a striker and/or AM dropping out wide is not unusual and would be tracked by their markers, but when the wide CB gets up there, no one knows who is meant to pick him up (maybe eventually someone will figure out it’s meant to be a striker tracking back who instead is trotting along the halfway line being comfortably marshalled by Egan), we often have a man advantage in that area of the field, and the willingness of all four players to get on the ball and make the pass, or make the run off the ball, means we regularly get in behind. The wide CBs show very good ball control and attacking instincts in these areas to make them a real threat in the box. Having four players so tightly packed in those advanced wide areas also mean they have a good chance of winning the ball back quickly or forcing it out for a throw so we can reset.

Often we commit the wide CB down one flank first, and if they have no joy and Norwood switches play to the other side we end up with both wide CBs high up the pitch and the wing backs attacking the box. Having almost everyone forward except the CB sounds like we are leaving ourselves open to a swift counter attack a lot of the time, but to reduce our attacking threat they’ll need to drop men back to defend, making it harder to get out quickly. Then our work rate and fitness come into play as the wide CBs, wing backs and CMs get back quickly and if all else fails, Egan has been an absolute rock and Henderson is superb with one-on-ones.

This is how I see it anyway.

Another thread someone mentioned how we’re light on competition/cover in CM and I think this is highlighted by naming the players rather than position above. Though I would trust Coutts to be ‘Norwood’ or ‘Fleck’ when called upon, just in a slightly different style.

 

[Pinchy]

On this subject, how would you think the England team would fare if we took up the Wilder/Knill methodology?. Could it lead to the seemingly elusive World Cup/ Euros win we’ve all longed for?

Please transfer this to “England wank”. Thanks.

 

[Kevincarterversion2.0]

One of the key differences is that this time last year, when injuries and suspensions kicked in, we didnt have the squad to plug the gaps. This season we do. Cranie, Stears, Dowell etc coming into the side is miles better than Holmes, Evans and Lunny. This is down to shewd recruitment from CW on a pretty average budget.

Also agree with the comments re-Norwood. He makes us tick. It's no coincidence he has been in many a promoted side from this division.