Non Meltdown thread

[Jan Age]

If you’ve seen nothing to change your mind I question your sanity and eye sight

Not only in relation to the Blades who are having another fantastic season but seeing the quality of other teams around us and their strength in depth etc. All will tell over the season.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Not won at Swansea for 58 or 60 years!

We're unbeaten against Barcelona over the same time period as well.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

We're unbeaten against Barcelona over the same time period as well.

.....and Inter Milan.

 

[SteveBlade]

As I mentioned before, if we don’t go up this season we are fucked.

Define 'fucked'.

People were saying that shit last season.

We'll only be fucked if Wilder leaves, our best players leave and something something McCabe and the Prince.

I'd say a more accurate statement would be 'If we don't go up this season we'll probably not be fucked although who knows?'

 

[blade67]

like in a number of games this year we didn't take our chances when on top and then a really good side over ran us in the 2nd half. I think Swansea looked better than most teams we have played. That lad Fer looks a real player and he's clearly still coming back from a bad injury. Looking at all our defeats this season, here's my brief analysis of those games

Swansea - on top for first 60 minutes, undone down the flanks late on as we tired by strength and pace
Boro - 3 nil down after 20 minutes, game over
Bristol City - classic championship attritional game, settled by 1 decent goal
Derby - on top for first 45 minutes, should have been ahead. Good 2nd half show from Derby. We tired against an athletic, attacking performance
Forest - poor game, terrible defensive work for their winner
Leeds - two good side, us better in 1st half, they got stronger. 0-0 but for a really bad goal
West Brom - should have been 2-0 up at half time, got blown away by a stronger faster team in 2nd half
Swansea - should have 2-0 up at half time. Swansea won midfield battle 2nd half and deserved the win.


There's a theme in there I think, especially the games in bold.

Another theme is all 8 defeats are against teams in the top half. My view is that we are pretty easy to work out, but only the better sides (with better players) can execute the skill and effort required.

I'd have settled for 4 points off the top at this stage. Does Madine give us an option that will stop this 2nd half issue against the best teams? Lets hope so

 

[Kev Gee]

There will be many more twists and turns before the end of the season.

 

[finlaytheblade]

Some people go too far in their criticism after a defeat, some show their frustration like many fans do and wake up the next morning with a slightly more positive outlook, some give a measured response, some can't wait to come on after a defeat to tackle any negativity and show what a big Blade they are.

Always been the same, and always will be. Here and at every other club.

What you say is true Davalon but as long as its constructive it's OK.
Do feel Wilder &Knill missed a trick yesterday,it is easy to talk after the event and think they are doing a great job really.
For me we were to casual alway through but controlled the first half without punishing them.The 2nd half ( very much like Derby defeat ) never got to grips with it and it was clear the game was drifting away. we needed to be proactive and not make subs after we concdeded (reactive ),it's one thing changing shape but changing personal to back up that change is more influential as Swans showed.
Bringing Madine on earlier would have given them a headache ( no pun needed ) and maybe shaken up the game a bit as being reactive to going behind is like closing the gate after the horse has bolted.
Once infront they gained in confidence and closed it down with not much alarm apart from a good penalty shout which was nailed on.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

Define 'fucked'.

People were saying that shit last season.

We'll only be fucked if Wilder leaves, our best players leave and something something McCabe and the Prince.

I'd say a more accurate statement would be 'If we don't go up this season we'll probably not be fucked although who knows?'

When I say ‘fucked’ I mean it in the sense where unless someone happens financially that a.) hasn’t happened before and b.) currently seems unlikely, we will enter a period of decline and we will not enjoy similar seasons of success and within 3 yrs will proabably be fighting relegation.

We have relied upon loanees and squeezing the pips out of aging players. Rabbits have been pulled out of hats and we have our eggs in fewer baskets. We have relied upon BS & LC last year and BS & McG this year for goals, stats suggest that won’t/can’t continue. Let’s be honest McG has been a revelation. We rely upon MD for creativity, that won’t continue. We rely on a loanee for GK. JOC has serious ambitions of playing at a higher level & on more money. We lose £5m to £10m a year, and will need to replace 6 key players within the next 3 years. The market rate for those players is £5m to £10m each. The only way I can see to every entering this worrying phase is to get promoted, thus allowing us to keep the GK, keep JOC and have the money to replace the aging squad members. If we don’t then what we are asking of CW, I don’t think he can produce.

 

[finlaytheblade]

When I say ‘fucked’ I mean it in the sense where unless someone happens financially that a.) hasn’t happened before and b.) currently seems unlikely, we will enter a period of decline and we will not enjoy similar seasons of success and within 3 yrs will proabably be fighting relegation.

We have relied upon loanees and squeezing the pips out of aging players. Rabbits have been pulled out of hats and we have our eggs in fewer baskets. We have relied upon BS & LC last year and BS & McG this year for goals, stats suggest that won’t/can’t continue. Let’s be honest McG has been a revelation. We rely upon MD for creativity, that won’t continue. We rely on a loanee for GK. JOC has serious ambitions of playing at a higher level & on more money. We lose £5m to £10m a year, and will need to replace 6 key players within the next 3 years. The market rate for those players is £5m to £10m each. The only way I can see to every entering this worrying phase is to get promoted, thus allowing us to keep the GK, keep JOC and have the money to replace the aging squad members. If we don’t then what we are asking of CW, I don’t think he can produce.

What you say there applies to the majority of teams in the division.The nucleus of our side has been stable for a couple of years but plenty of changers within the squad it's a continues process which all people in the game accept,you have a very negative perception of us as a club

 

[Davalon]

What you say is true Davalon but as long as its constructive it's OK.
Do feel Wilder &Knill missed a trick yesterday,it is easy to talk after the event and think they are doing a great job really.
For me we were to casual alway through but controlled the first half without punishing them.The 2nd half ( very much like Derby defeat ) never got to grips with it and it was clear the game was drifting away. we needed to be proactive and not make subs after we concdeded (reactive ),it's one thing changing shape but changing personal to back up that change is more influential as Swans showed.
Bringing Madine on earlier would have given them a headache ( no pun needed ) and maybe shaken up the game a bit as being reactive to going behind is like closing the gate after the horse has bolted.
Once infront they gained in confidence and closed it down with not much alarm apart from a good penalty shout which was nailed on.

Agree with much of that.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

What you say there applies to the majority of teams in the division.The nucleus of our side has been stable for a couple of years but plenty of changers within the squad it's a continues process which all people in the game accept,you have a very negative perception of us as a club

It's not a negative perception of the club, it's a statement of fact (as I see it). I've been a blade for over 40 years and figuratively speaking, have seen us snatch defeat from the jaws of victory on many an occasion, and have seen us fail to fully take advantage of situations when they presented themselves. I just feel that this season is one of those crucial moment in our history, were things could quite easily go one of two drastically different ways.

BS, LC, McG, MD, Stearman, Crainie, Coutts and Basham, will need to be replaced over the next 3 to 4 years. A number of those players are central to the way we play and whom we are heavily reliant upon. BS & McG have scored half our league goals this year. And BS & LC were responsible for over half our goals last year. Throughout his career, LC has never been prolific we struck lucky the last 2 years. At nearly 34, and judging by his performances this season he should be entering the last 6 months of his time with us. McG has had an injury plagued career, we've struck lucky with him this season so far as regards games played, goals scored and injuries suffered.

Work out the current market value of players of that quality. Look at how much players like Hugill, Assombalonga, Vydra, Madine actually cost to buy. Look at the wages of loan players like Abraham, etc. As much as I welcome the arrival of Dowell to offer competition to Duffy, he's a loanee, just as I welcome Henderson, he's a loanee. We are kicking the can down the road regarding succession planning.

Do you think it's as easy as picking up a loanee GK and a 30 yr old free transfer forward who'll get double figure goals every season? Is it as simple as picking up lower league players and them hitting the ground running? Thomas, Holmes, Evans, Lundstram, Carruthers, Leonard and Heneghan suggest otherwise. As i said, this season & last CW has worked miracles. He can't be expected to repeat it season in, season out. Especially as we seem to lack youngsters coming through and our unwillingness to bring in foreign players.

Other teams in this division have different budgets and pay more for transfers and pay more for wages, they also have different age profiles. Look at Swansea last night, McBurnie 22, James 21, Fulton 24, Grimes 23, Celina 22, Roberts 23 and Rodon 21, unless there is a seismic shift in financial decisions and capability at United, then things aren't looking great.

 

[ShockingBadBuy]

That pen appeal looked like legit the Swans player had his arm up when it was struck by the ball. The flight of the ball was clearly deflected.

On another day, in another game, rightly or wrongly another ref might well have given it. Compare / contrast with the “handball” that led to Bash’s dismissal against Blackburn?

If Billy and Didz finish those first half chances like they’ve been finishing of late ... and the penalty decision goes our way ... we’ve scored 3 away from home again, and the job’s a good ‘un.

For sure (whole series of cliches alert!) it’s “ifs and buts”, but it’s also “fine margins”. Yesterday was frustrating. But teams put in a poor half and win matches every week. Could easily have been the case for us last night.

 

[Sean Thornton]

There will be many more twists and turns before the end of the season.

Which some will be surprised at. For sone reason.

 

[Grappler]

The penalty miss, by the ref, was a bit of a shocker.

Madine seemed to win every ball in the air, and flicked on to our players. I would like him to be a bit more selfish and power a header towards goal, given the chance.

 

[Tom Bott]

a lack of money.

Chancer at Rust FC also stated they were fucked this year if they did not gain promotion, yet he has barrels of money.

 

[Fanny magnet]

like in a number of games this year we didn't take our chances when on top and then a really good side over ran us in the 2nd half. I think Swansea looked better than most teams we have played. That lad Fer looks a real player and he's clearly still coming back from a bad injury. Looking at all our defeats this season, here's my brief analysis of those games

Swansea - on top for first 60 minutes, undone down the flanks late on as we tired by strength and pace
Boro - 3 nil down after 20 minutes, game over
Bristol City - classic championship attritional game, settled by 1 decent goal
Derby - on top for first 45 minutes, should have been ahead. Good 2nd half show from Derby. We tired against an athletic, attacking performance
Forest - poor game, terrible defensive work for their winner
Leeds - two good side, us better in 1st half, they got stronger. 0-0 but for a really bad goal
West Brom - should have been 2-0 up at half time, got blown away by a stronger faster team in 2nd half
Swansea - should have 2-0 up at half time. Swansea won midfield battle 2nd half and deserved the win.


There's a theme in there I think, especially the games in bold.

Another theme is all 8 defeats are against teams in the top half. My view is that we are pretty easy to work out, but only the better sides (with better players) can execute the skill and effort required.

I'd have settled for 4 points off the top at this stage. Does Madine give us an option that will stop this 2nd half issue against the best teams? Lets hope so

Here is a theme for you
3rd in league on bottom 6 budget with a squad of players that cost less than everyone else's

 

[Tom Bott]

The market rate for those players is £5m to £10m each.

Unless you have CW/AK in charge whose signings of McG, Norwood and Egan show this not to be the case.

Teemu Pukki is joint 2nd highest scorer in the division for Norwich City and cost ? *

Tammy Abraham is the leading scorer and is on loan from Chelsea.

Some people are so fixated about money they seem to forget that is is a team game and that team spirit is something that money alone cannot buy.


* free transfer.

 

[robbiez666]

It's hard to compete with the top sides in the league when you have 1/3 of their budget and only shop in one supermarket.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

Unless you have CW/AK in charge whose signings of McG, Norwood and Egan show this not to be the case.

Teemu Pukki is joint 2nd highest scorer in the division for Norwich City and cost ? *

Tammy Abraham is the leading scorer and is on loan from Chelsea.

Some people are so fixated about money they seem to forget that is is a team game and that team spirit is something that money alone cannot buy.

* free transfer.

You're kind of strengthening my argument.

I'm not 100% sure how much Egan and Norwood have cost, but with Egan the rumour is £4m, so not pennies. And it kind of reinforces my comment about CW pulling rabbits out of hats, and the likelihood of him continuing to do it. Signings of players with the impact of McG are like hen's teeth.

Tammy Abraham is a loanee and Villa must be covering a proportion of his wages, I suspect he's on £50k week, a wedge that we can't cover, that's why we go for the Wilson/Dowell/Henderson level of youth player, and there is a resultant risk with that.

Pukki (who did once cost Celtic £3m) wouldn't be on our radar, neither would Maupay (£20m) because they aren't British. Both are worth many milllions of £'s, as are Adams (£15m), Bowen (£15m), Gayle (£10m), Grabban (£6m), Roofe (£15m) and McBurnie (£10m) the other leading goalscorers this season.

You are right, team spirit is a great thing, but it doesn't stop the aging process. If you are old enough, you'll remember what happened to United between '84 and '88.

 

[finlaytheblade]

It's not a negative perception of the club, it's a statement of fact (as I see it). I've been a blade for over 40 years and figuratively speaking, have seen us snatch defeat from the jaws of victory on many an occasion, and have seen us fail to fully take advantage of situations when they presented themselves. I just feel that this season is one of those crucial moment in our history, were things could quite easily go one of two drastically different ways.

BS, LC, McG, MD, Stearman, Crainie, Coutts and Basham, will need to be replaced over the next 3 to 4 years. A number of those players are central to the way we play and whom we are heavily reliant upon. BS & McG have scored half our league goals this year. And BS & LC were responsible for over half our goals last year. Throughout his career, LC has never been prolific we struck lucky the last 2 years. At nearly 34, and judging by his performances this season he should be entering the last 6 months of his time with us. McG has had an injury plagued career, we've struck lucky with him this season so far as regards games played, goals scored and injuries suffered.

Work out the current market value of players of that quality. Look at how much players like Hugill, Assombalonga, Vydra, Madine actually cost to buy. Look at the wages of loan players like Abraham, etc. As much as I welcome the arrival of Dowell to offer competition to Duffy, he's a loanee, just as I welcome Henderson, he's a loanee. We are kicking the can down the road regarding succession planning.

Do you think it's as easy as picking up a loanee GK and a 30 yr old free transfer forward who'll get double figure goals every season? Is it as simple as picking up lower league players and them hitting the ground running? Thomas, Holmes, Evans, Lundstram, Carruthers, Leonard and Heneghan suggest otherwise. As i said, this season & last CW has worked miracles. He can't be expected to repeat it season in, season out. Especially as we seem to lack youngsters coming through and our unwillingness to bring in foreign players.

Other teams in this division have different budgets and pay more for transfers and pay more for wages, they also have different age profiles. Look at Swansea last night, McBurnie 22, James 21, Fulton 24, Grimes 23, Celina 22, Roberts 23 and Rodon 21, unless there is a seismic shift in financial decisions and capability at United, then things aren't looking great.

Can't disagree with your commends I have mentioned aging players in the past.Have confidence in Wilder he is aware of this,he has improved the squad every window so far no reason to think that won't continue.
A bigger budget would help

 

[snootyfenooty]

I think about 80-85 points will be enough for 2nd this year

Yeah me too and I reckon anyone who exceeds 85 points will win it. This also gives a bit of scope for one of the teams outside the top six to make a run on the inside rails. I've got an eye on Bristol City.

 

[Davalon]

Not moved on much this thread.

Simple reason why. There was no 'meltdown'. Just a handful of OTT comments and more fans blowing off steam at their frustration and disappointment at the performance and result like you get in the pub after a game.

Stupid comments are fair game but there's nothing more annoying after a disappointing defeat than those few who can't wait to come on and patronise everyone and anyone showing the slightest negativity, and branding everyone the same.

Wilder is a legend for being honest and sometimes critical. Fans are slashing wankers for doing the exactly the same.

 

[andy m]

Not really. It’s not a meltdown at the loss, it’s a criticism of its manner. Success comes with consistency, and a collective desire for victory. We’ve stuck a shit show on the end of four good results, with some players failing to do the basics tonight. Tonight was an opportunity to capitalise on other results. We haven’t done so, and now face the uneviable task of facing Norwich away.

A draw tonight against a Swansea team of that quality would’ve been acceptable. Tonight we’ve put in a damp dog’s dick of a performance, so much so, it’s left people wondering how we can oscillate so much. It looked like we’d all just got off a flight back from a stag do in Benidorm.

As I mentioned before, if we don’t go up this season we are fucked. And that fact fuels my annoyance at nights and performances like tonight. Football at this level is nasty and unforgiving, and the players and staff are richly rewarded for it. With that comes being head up to criticism.

Okay you've got me interested. Just why will we be fucked if we don't go up this year?

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

Okay you've got me interested. Just why will we be fucked if we don't go up this year?

Posts #68 and #71.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Not moved on much this thread.

Simple reason why. There was no 'meltdown'. Just a handful of OTT comments and more fans blowing off steam at their frustration and disappointment at the performance and result like you get in the pub after a game.

Stupid comments are fair game but there's nothing more annoying after a disappointing defeat than those few who can't wait to come on and patronise everyone and anyone showing the slightest negativity, and branding everyone the same.

Wilder is a legend for being honest and sometimes critical. Fans are slashing wankers for doing the exactly the same.

I don’t think Wilder criticises every single aspect of the club on a daily basis.

Who are the poor souls who have been referred to as “slashing wankers” btw? The search facility would appear to show the only poster who has used the phrase is you. In your above post.

Fake news I’m afraid.

 

[andy m]

Posts #68 and #71.

Just read them, and whilst I get the point, fucked is a huge over exaggeration.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

Just read them, and whilst I get the point, fucked is a huge over exaggeration.

I must admit, I'm coming around to your way of thinking. The phrase 'possibly facing problems' might be more applicable.

 

[Yellarbellyblade]

I think if we were ever going to break that play off curse it was whilst we were in the lower leagues playing teams we really should be beating.

Big ask to do it in the “worlds most valuable game” as Sky like to call it.

I think it is autos or no promotion, and that doesn’t take away the phenomenal feat Of CW if he gets us into them.

I actually think the play off final might be less of an issue bizarrely, in a one off we can beat anyone. To get there we have to win a two leg match up and we’re struggling against other top sides generally so two leg games would work against us. Clearly anything possible and I will always remain hopeful despite our years of repeated hurt in the play offs.

 

[Harrisblade]

it's the fact they were there for the taking first half. We didn't capitalise on it.A top 2 side would have. Norwich away will be much harder, so it's looking like the playoffs. Still a fantastic achievement by this side, but our record in the finals speak for themselves

You think that anything you remember from previous play-off finals will apply to the present set of players?

 

[dc_blade]

Not moved on much this thread.

Simple reason why. There was no 'meltdown'. Just a handful of OTT comments and more fans blowing off steam at their frustration and disappointment at the performance and result like you get in the pub after a game.

Stupid comments are fair game but there's nothing more annoying after a disappointing defeat than those few who can't wait to come on and patronise everyone and anyone showing the slightest negativity, and branding everyone the same.

Wilder is a legend for being honest and sometimes critical. Fans are slashing wankers for doing the exactly the same.

The reaction to this defeat hasn't been too bad--worse on Twitter than on here, as usual. But after the West Brom and Ipswich games there were meltdowns and they were embarrassing so you can't blame people for expecting one.