The ceiling

[Patrick Suffaux]

I personally think we've reached it with the setup and resources we have. That's not a criticism, the manager, players and club have come on a huge amount in the last 18 months. I'm extremely proud but I do think the momentum is slowing, we simply don't have enough to maintain a promotion challenge. One wasn't expected at the start but the team set the bar very high in the early going and it can be difficult to adjust expectations after that.

Too many times recently we have fallen to a late goal or haven't got what we deserved against average teams that simply have an expensive bit of quality to call upon and tip the balance in their favour. We can battle against that forever more but ultimately that financial gap will make the difference when it matters. Wealthier backing is needed to push us on to the next level. Wilder is getting the best out of what he has and now that the opposition has adjusted their approach to deal with our threat we are finding it a lot more difficult.

We'll finish comfortably but I don't think we'll make that top six now. Not being negative, it's just where my expectations are set. I think we have a solid group of players that is coached and prepared well, we're just not savvy enough at the vital moments. If we are to kick on, we need to recruit from higher up the ladder. It's a tough division and it isn't going to get any easier.

 

[Carlton Blade]

You might be right but i still think we could go on a run. With momentum we are a nightmare to play against. We just need an early goal or 2 at home to get things started

 

[boo radley]

Thing is I always need a pair of steps. I refuse to stand on the furniture. Good at putting up lighting and a new fitting always makes a room look brighter.

 

[Stretch]

I see what you are saying but we still havent seen the new signings bed in yet and with Brooks coming back (soonish) I think we've got a strong finish in us. That being said other teams above and around us will finish strongly too.

Securing the playoffs depends on us taking points off Leeds, Brizzle, Cardiff, Boro, Fulham and Brentford. I fancy us away from home more than at home now, and 3 of those games are away. Wolves away as well could turn up a surprise.

Still some life in the old dog yet.

 

[Champagneblade]

Wilder has done a tremendous job and we need to focus on getting tge maximum from the Burtons and Barnsleys of the remaining fixtures.

Agree with the OP. With the current resources Wilder can’t be expected to solicit that much more.

Brooks and Holmes might give some impetus but all things being equal across the pitch we have 400k-700k players competing against 4m-7m players. Lads on 10k per week against lads on 40k per week.

Disappointing as it is, better players occasionally pull magic out of the hat like last night but they also do the basics better, cheaply turning over possession being an example.

I’m really pleased with the squad Wilder has assembled, especially the midfield but it’s inescapable that to improve upon Billy, Leon etc is going to cost money and there isn’t going to be a Harry or Kyle sell on next summer.

We’ve reached a crossroads far sooner than expected but we are there now.

Let’s hope for a bit of fortune and enough magic from Brooks, Holmes and Duffy to be in that top 6 come May.

If we are not, there will not be a club with a lower budget above us.

 

[A Storm of Blades]

Wilder has done a tremendous job and we need to focus on getting tge maximum from the Burtons and Barnsleys of the remaining fixtures.

Agree with the OP. With the current resources Wilder can’t be expected to solicit that much more.

Brooks and Holmes might give some impetus but all things being equal across the pitch we have 400k-700k players competing against 4m-7m players. Lads on 10k per week against lads on 40k per week.

Disappointing as it is, better players occasionally pull magic out of the hat like last night but they also do the basics better, cheaply turning over possession being an example.

I’m really pleased with the squad Wilder has assembled, especially the midfield but it’s inescapable that to improve upon Billy, Leon etc is going to cost money and there isn’t going to be a Harry or Kyle sell on next summer.

We’ve reached a crossroads far sooner than expected but we are there now.

Let’s hope for a bit of fortune and enough magic from Brooks, Holmes and Duffy to be in that top 6 come May.

If we are not, there will not be a club with a lower budget above us.

I absolutely love the bloke and he has done wonders in 18 months but I don't think it does any favours to say he's infallible. In games where we've lacked a little bit quality to use his quote, our lockpickers have been sitting on the bench. Maybe the quality and size of the league has dawned on us, but I feel like we've lost some of the bravery of our play and team selection.

 

[Tommoblade66]

Need to break through the glass ceiling

 

[Chali 2na]

I personally think we've reached it with the setup and resources we have.

What specifically makes you think we've reached the ceiling? We've just signed 3 players, who could all potentially improve the side, and most of our team are still learning at this level: there's every reason to think we can progress further.

...ultimately that financial gap will make the difference when it matters. Wealthier backing is needed to push us on to the next level.

You say it like it's a plan we can enact.

We'll finish comfortably but I don't think we'll make that top six now. Not being negative, it's just where my expectations are set. I think we have a solid group of players that is coached and prepared well, we're just not savvy enough at the vital moments. If we are to kick on, we need to recruit from higher up the ladder. It's a tough division and it isn't going to get any easier.

Being savvy enough comes from experience.

 

[sheffielder]

I am confident that we will go on a run soon. Had a feeling before last nights game we would lose this one ala Fleetwood. Now I am not saying we are prectically going to win out like last season but we are a fit team and finishing in the play offs is not beyond us if we get back to basics

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

 

[yorkshirecoast]

Whilst most would have accepted our current position before the season started, it is disappointing to have gone from top of the league to a side struggling to win games in such a short period of time. Injuries haven’t helped but we look slow and predictable at times.

There is absolutely no doubt that financial backing is key though - and just about every team that has been promoted out of this division in recent years has spent far more than we have.

 

[Piffle and Tosh]

tosh

 

[zablade]

The summer transfer dealings will be telling regarding the ambitions and financial position of the owners, we will need higher quality incomings than League one triers if we are to push on.

Actually we also need higher quality incomings just to consolidate our place in the division. A look at the form guide table isn’t great, that start we had has basically kept us out of trouble the last two months, we can’t rely on that sort of start happening as a given next season.

 

[The Vicar]

I also think that Chris has reached a ceiling. He is up against better managers with better players and more resources, he is on a learning curve that may take him a couple of seasons to climb. If he doesn’t then he becomes a managerial also ran, but I feel that with time and backing he has the ability to get there, hopefully with us if we are patient.

2 wins in 12 and 1 win in 7 at home are the combination of injuries, a dip in form from some players and other teams getting wise to us. Also other teams that started slowly (Fulham, Villa, Brentford, Derby) have got into their stride, and their resources and championship experience over 46 games were always likely to give them a better chance of the top 6 than us.

I think that to get in the top 6 we need to win 9 or 10 of the last 17 games, and in all honesty I cannot see it happening.

But I am not disappointed, I am sure we will win enough to keep the season alive and Chris and the team will continue to grow and learn.

UTB
MYLBWY

 

[vorpal blade]

He is up against better managers

I think that's very harsh - most of us here have eye-witness evidence of how good Bruce is. I doubt most of us think he's as innovative or motivational as the Wilder one.

We had momentum then Coutts broke his leg so that inertia drained, we have a tendency to be static when we had the ball at the edge of the opponents penalty area but last night, with the new team members I think it gave us a much more mobile midfield - some unexpected balls into the area, some creativity, confidence or speed and we're off again, have you heard there's a lad called Brooks on the books?

 

[DronnieBlade]

Wilder has done a tremendous job and we need to focus on getting tge maximum from the Burtons and Barnsleys of the remaining fixtures.

Agree with the OP. With the current resources Wilder can’t be expected to solicit that much more.

Brooks and Holmes might give some impetus but all things being equal across the pitch we have 400k-700k players competing against 4m-7m players. Lads on 10k per week against lads on 40k per week.

Disappointing as it is, better players occasionally pull magic out of the hat like last night but they also do the basics better, cheaply turning over possession being an example.

I’m really pleased with the squad Wilder has assembled, especially the midfield but it’s inescapable that to improve upon Billy, Leon etc is going to cost money and there isn’t going to be a Harry or Kyle sell on next summer.

We’ve reached a crossroads far sooner than expected but we are there now.

Let’s hope for a bit of fortune and enough magic from Brooks, Holmes and Duffy to be in that top 6 come May.

If we are not, there will not be a club with a lower budget above us.

Totally agree in that the area of the pitch that has been neglected and under resourced the most is up top.

Less than £1m for your entire strike force is a bit of a joke in Championship terms.

UTB

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

To my mind we haven't hit the ceiling due to maxing out our set up, resources or managers ability, we have hit a slump due to a succession of bad luck. The squad is being asked to perform at a high level, but it is a level that it is capable of performing at. The majority of teams in the league are capable, no more than that. Wednesday have shown that since the new manager has taken over, fit players in a good shape making the right decisions at this level means the opposition don't score.

Villa weren't anything special last night, not by a long way. The score could've quite easily been 3-1 to us. Sodgrass' goal should've been no more than a consolation. It wasn't, without being overly harsh, O'Connell shouldn't have missed last night for example. That wasn't due to a lack of high end technique. Same in the second half for Basham. If you are connecting with a free header 4 yrds out you should be scoring. That's sunday league ability.

You're right at this level of football, the margins get smaller and the room for error less. One piece of skill or bad piece of bad luck alters the result of the game and can effect a number of games after. I agree with your point about the more spent on players theoretically increases the quality of the player and therefore their ability to produce that one element of game turning magic. But going on what I saw last night and in the previous Villa game, the gap between us and Villa is minuscule. Hogan cost Villa £15m, and he was one of the worst players on the pitch last night. Bjarnason in midfield cost £2m and he was awful. Jedinak cost £4.6m. Snodgrass is on £42k a week. Over two games, it's taken a last minute winner to separate us, when other than a 10min spell, they've been 2nd best for large parts of the other 170mins. The concern being shown & questions asked should be on the Villa side, not ours. Same goes for Derby, 2nd in the league and we've bettered them over the two games. Let's not talk ourselves down.

But what has effected us this season & what has it cost us? Coutts getting injured. Fleck getting sent off. Brooks getting GF. Those three things threw us into a tailspin starting in the last week of November, and other pieces of misfortune/poor decision making has exacerbated things. The Birmingham goal, the Bristol goal, etc. Without being overly bladey we could have 6 to 8 points more, and be sat in 2nd and it be fully deserved.

 

[Esablade]

we have hit a slump due to a succession of bad luck.

`Cheers Kev...

 

[Harrisblade]

To my mind we haven't hit the ceiling due to maxing out our set up, resources or managers ability, we have hit a slump due to a succession of bad luck. The squad is being asked to perform at a high level, but it is a level that it is capable of performing at. The majority of teams in the league are capable, no more than that. Wednesday have shown that since the new manager has taken over, fit players in a good shape making the right decisions at this level means the opposition don't score.

Villa weren't anything special last night, not by a long way. The score could've quite easily been 3-1 to us. Sodgrass' goal should've been no more than a consolation. It wasn't, without being overly harsh, O'Connell shouldn't have missed last night for example. That wasn't due to a lack of high end technique. Same in the second half for Basham. If you are connecting with a free header 4 yrds out you should be scoring. That's sunday league ability.

You're right at this level of football, the margins get smaller and the room for error less. One piece of skill or bad piece of bad luck alters the result of the game and can effect a number of games after. I agree with your point about the more spent on players theoretically increases the quality of the player and therefore their ability to produce that one element of game turning magic. But going on what I saw last night and in the previous Villa game, the gap between us and Villa is minuscule. Hogan cost Villa £15m, and he was one of the worst players on the pitch last night. Bjarnason in midfield cost £2m and he was awful. Jedinak cost £4.6m. Snodgrass is on £42k a week. Over two games, it's taken a last minute winner to separate us, when other than a 10min spell, they've been 2nd best for large parts of the other 170mins. The concern being shown & questions asked should be on the Villa side, not ours. Same goes for Derby, 2nd in the league and we've bettered them over the two games. Let's not talk ourselves down.

But what has effected us this season & what has it cost us? Coutts getting injured. Fleck getting sent off. Brooks getting GF. Those three things threw us into a tailspin starting in the last week of November, and other pieces of misfortune/poor decision making has exacerbated things. The Birmingham goal, the Bristol goal, etc. Without being overly bladey we could have 6 to 8 points more, and be sat in 2nd and it be fully deserved.

I think we're missing Freeman quite badly as well

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

`Cheers Kev...

Well, when I say 'bad luck', I mean 'bad luck' and 'Tevez'.

 

[The Vicar]

I meant better mangers than he has been up against before!

 

[nopigfansintown]

If we fail to go up this season, we'll start next season with a squad of players that will be one of the most valuable in the league - despite being assembled for a relative pittance.We will be looking in the market for players that are the cherry on the cake: players that can give us that star quality up front for example. That's the measure of the job our management team has done. If that's the glass ceiling, were already throwing stones at it.Chris Wilder and Alan Knill are already out performing their managerial contemporaries. Do you think these teams expect to be roundly outplayed with their expensively assembled teams (regardless of results ?). No, they expect that the quality they've 'bought' will roll us over.Give our management team Bruce's budget and they'd be up by March.

 

[Pedro's Winger]

I absolutely love the bloke and he has done wonders in 18 months but I don't think it does any favours to say he's infallible. In games where we've lacked a little bit quality to use his quote, our lockpickers have been sitting on the bench. Maybe the quality and size of the league has dawned on us, but I feel like we've lost some of the bravery of our play and team selection.

Good post.
Definitely second half last night the team had a feel of one that didn't really believe.

 

[BushBlade]

It's called building a squad. The idea that because we can't do back to back promotions we've hit our ceiling is risible.

 

[vorpal blade]

I meant better mangers than he has been up against before!

Leave Jesus out of this vicar.

 

[A Storm of Blades]

I wonder if a tweak could be made where 2 of Duffy, Holmes or Brooks sit in behind a single striker. Up top, nobody's really banging on the door for selection, so with our system still forcing teams to load the flanks, a couple of clever players occupying the central space 30-40 yards from goal, might cause a few more headaches.

 

[The Vicar]

Leave Jesus out of this vicar.

Nothing wrong with a bit of divine intervention!

I wonder if a tweak could be made where 2 of Duffy, Holmes or Brooks sit in behind a single striker. Up top, nobody's really banging on the door for selection, so with our system still forcing teams to load the flanks, a couple of clever players occupying the central space 30-40 yards from goal, might cause a few more headaches.

CW did say a couple of weeks ago that we needed some clever players so you might be right!

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

It's called building a squad. The idea that because we can't do back to back promotions we've hit our ceiling is risible.

Recent results back my theory. We can’t seem to win at home in the league and every team that has stopped us has played the same way.

We don’t seem to be learning from it and I don’t think the level of investment will push us through the barrier. It’s just my opinion. We have assembled a competitive squad with a modest budget and credit to the manager for it but when we are being repeatedly done with one moment of quality again and again it suggests that we lack something only a big budget can afford.

It’s a reasonable theory, I don’t understand why some refute it or think it’s laughable. I suspect it’s probably because people can never deal with the truth.

 

[PokerBlade]

I sort of know that the glib answer to what I'm about to say is that we've picked up very few points in our last ten matches, and I think there's some reason behind what the OP is saying, but:

The question that ought to be considered is whether or not we're showing signs of improving the squad. When Wilder came in he very quickly shipped out players that needed shipping out and replaced them with clearly higher quality (and notably improved players who were already with us). In his first JTW things were quiet, but he signed Hanson who, not a hero by any stretch, added some muscle that we were lacking.

In the last Summer, Wilder added the likes of Baldock and Stevens who are somewhat limited but have clearly proven themselves capable of Championship football. It's still very early for the signings in this JTW but the early signs are that, once again, Wilder has improved the squad as a whole. Evans was class against Villa, Leonard looks a good fit, and Wilson nearly scored a stunner (having scored once for us already).

No doubt that Wilder's over achieving with his budget but so far every transfer window has seen him improve the first team, plug gaps in the squad, and had us better off for it.

While I've made a similar point in another thread that I'm not sure how much further we can go without increasing what we spend on individual players, it seems a bit silly to argue we've hit a ceiling when the reality is that Wilder's reign so far has been one of constantly improving the side and its position in the league. We haven't lost games because we've been completely outclassed. We've lost/drawn games where we've felt we should've performed better or been unlucky not to get more.

We're not only way ahead of where we expected to be...we've just improved the team with new signings as well. I'm as wound up as anyone by this run of results but it shouldn't turn into pessimism when every sign at the club is that we're doing all the right things to take us forward. You can't talk about how we've hit our limits when we've just improved the first team.

 

[BushBlade]

I sort of know that the glib answer to what I'm about to say is that we've picked up very few points in our last ten matches, and I think there's some reason behind what the OP is saying, but:

The question that ought to be considered is whether or not we're showing signs of improving the squad. When Wilder came in he very quickly shipped out players that needed shipping out and replaced them with clearly higher quality (and notably improved players who were already with us). In his first JTW things were quiet, but he signed Hanson who, not a hero by any stretch, added some muscle that we were lacking.

In the last Summer, Wilder added the likes of Baldock and Stevens who are somewhat limited but have clearly proven themselves capable of Championship football. It's still very early for the signings in this JTW but the early signs are that, once again, Wilder has improved the squad as a whole. Evans was class against Villa, Leonard looks a good fit, and Wilson nearly scored a stunner (having scored once for us already).

No doubt that Wilder's over achieving with his budget but so far every transfer window has seen him improve the first team, plug gaps in the squad, and had us better off for it.

While I've made a similar point in another thread that I'm not sure how much further we can go without increasing what we spend on individual players, it seems a bit silly to argue we've hit a ceiling when the reality is that Wilder's reign so far has been one of constantly improving the side and its position in the league. We haven't lost games because we've been completely outclassed. We've lost/drawn games where we've felt we should've performed better or been unlucky not to get more.

We're not only way ahead of where we expected to be...we've just improved the team with new signings as well. I'm as wound up as anyone by this run of results but it shouldn't turn into pessimism when every sign at the club is that we're doing all the right things to take us forward. You can't talk about how we've hit our limits when we've just improved the first team.

And we've just added four first team players who haven't yet settled in or even played a full ninety minutes.