Stoke, setting the example

[blade too long]

Playing Stoke Tuesday , got me thinking ,
here is the template for becoming an established prem team,
No massive outlay but got up through graft , team work and a smattering of skills
If we could achieve what Stokes done in the past decade Id be over the moon
Marshaled their resources well, improved by buying in 1s and 2s and slowly upping the quality

Be a good pointer to where we are at on Tuesday, and a guide to how far left to travel there is

 

[Fulwood Blade]

It used to be the "Charlton" way.

Looking at both clubs it comes down to a decent manager or managers with Stoke as Pullis started it all off.............and we have one now.

Can CW & AK do it at this level - time will tell, but they've got my vote - we just need patience I suppose?

You can say all you want about Clough, but he did a steady job at Derby, but the fans just wouldn't wait.

Can we Blades hold our nerve?

UTB

 

[SwissBlade]

Stoke are an example of how a relatively small club can become an established premier league club. Initially Stoke's approach was to play in a way that Premier league sides couldn't handle - Physical, direct, well organised.

The key was also stability, not looking to change managers with every bad result but to find a manager that suited the club. Compared to the likes of Sunderland they have been much more consistent.

 

[Slim Man]

You forgot 'kick everyone else off the park', 'create a big ugly team, get defenders who can kick it reyt hard and long and strikers above 6 foot 8' & 'get someone who can take throws longer than javelin throwers in the olympics'

No thanks. Follow Southamptons model. We find ourselves in their exact position after promotion from League 1. Stormed the league with by far the best team after some years meandering about, they used that momentum to carry them through. Went up to the prem, used a great scout network & the academy talent, sold it off at a premium as and when they got a ridiculous offer and reinvested it into the team.

 

[Pinchy]

We are a far bigger club than Stoke. Not only that, we can do it by playing proper football.

 

[Bartleby]

You forgot 'kick everyone else off the park', 'create a big ugly team, get defenders who can kick it reyt hard and long and strikers above 6 foot 8' & 'get someone who can take throws longer than javelin throwers in the olympics'

No thanks. Follow Southamptons model. We find ourselves in their exact position after promotion from League 1. Stormed the league with by far the best team after some years meandering about, they used that momentum to carry them through. Went up to the prem, used a great scout network & the academy talent, sold it off at a premium as and when they got a ridiculous offer and reinvested it into the team.

Or the Bournemouth model - stick with the best manager you've had in recent times and get some significant investment

 

[Slim Man]

Or the Bournemouth model - stick with the best manager you've had in recent times and get some significant investment

Hope we can find the second one pal cos that clearly isn't coming from Prince and Kev.

I worry when people bring up Huddersfield's promotion last year it was a freak event. They managed to stretch their budget so well using the German market and brilliant loans. We just don't scout europe at all. It's a tough league and money is king 9 out of 10 times.

 

[boo radley]

There are other examples. People used to quote Bolton as the model and West Brom.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Would you want to watch this 'blueprint' every week ?

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

Southampton is the model I'd rather look to.

Get a scouting, coaching and youth set up correctly and you can change managers and players but still maintain a high level of performance.

Their level of infrastructure must be immense. If you look at some of the players they've produced - even going back (Bale, Walcott, Oxlade Chamberlain, Lallana to name the highest profile) it's a real piece of work.

 

[Revolution]

Stoke were in relegation trouble in January 2009, their first PL season.

They signed James Beattie, who got the goals they needed to keep them up, and have been there ever since.

Beattie was a bargain: he cost less than he'd been signed for by the selling club.

That's astute management right there.

 

[blade too long]

the style a team employs is irrelevant , its the making the best use of the talents you have
Stoke were at times very agricultural, a bit in Wimbledon mode
But have adapted through to being quite watchable
Saints managed to throw a lot more money at it with new investment
Its making the best of what resources are at hand , we play far more football a la southampton , but might need to show more agression as it does get tougher up there
Very few are prem teams packed with shrinking violets

 

[Bladezz]

Bournemouth model is the closest one to us but with the need of big finances.

Without investment you end up like Bolton just stagnating until you either have an excellent season and get promoted or a terrible one and get relegated.

 

[veganblade]

They have offered free away travel for five years running now! Interesting to know how that's kept going.

Prefer Southampton as the model. They remind me of wind power energy here in Scandinavia; sustainability is key.

 

[itsinyerblood]

In terms of adopting a long-term survival strategy, why rely on the example of one club?

Southampton and Stoke have been mentioned, and possibly Bournemouth too, but the truth is we shouldn't be too proud when it comes to learning, so we should take from whichever clubs who seem to found a way to keep their head above water. The question of selling homegrown players interests me, and how little we seem to be happy to pass them onto clubs who we often fail to haggle with. It's a generalisation of course, but I do feel we're pretty amateur when it comes to asking a fee that reflects the value of a player we've coached and help to find some kind of potential. At times it's as if we're the village team who seem happy to accept a figure that is at the lower end of the seven figure debate. We've often accepted the figure of a million or thereabouts as if we couldn't bank it quick enough, yet the game has moved on and we appear stuck in a rut where realistic transfer fees are concerned...........who actually decides these valuations? Manager? A small group consisting of Manager and Directors? Maybe it's time for the club to headhunt an acknowledged and proven transfer negotiator, someone savvy enough to have their finger on the pulse plus determined enough to add sell-on clauses that will benefit the club should we sell.

 

[Kev Gee]

Isnt Stokes owner the guy who owns Spar?

Billionaire is memory serves me correctly?

Theres no reason we cant emaulate Stoke, but not the playing side of it if CW is still our manager.

We have a decent chief scout but I dont know much about our scouting network. Do we even have scouts based overseas? I doubt it!!

 

[Grizzly blade]

Hope we can find the second one pal cos that clearly isn't coming from Prince and Kev.

I worry when people bring up Huddersfield's promotion last year it was a freak event. They managed to stretch their budget so well using the German market and brilliant loans. We just don't scout europe at all. It's a tough league and money is king 9 out of 10 times.

Huddersfield wasn't a freak event just because most of the championship teams have fallen into the trap of chucking money at the wrong players and continue to use the same failing method of tired old managers with the same idea.
They had the balls to break the mould and try something different.
What they have done is ensured what they did will NOT be a one off as other clubs look at what has worked, seen it can be done and look at doing similar.
Wilder in some ways...(perhaps through budget restrictions more than choice granted) is similar. He is sticking to the method that has worked for him and which goes against what many "experts"...both fans and those who work in the game suggest is the sure way to success.

What they proved was that the right manager, with the bravery to carry it out and stick to their ways, who can get the maximum from his players week in week out is just as successful as the clubs who just assemble players in a haphazard fashion in a manner accustomed to a computer game.


As for our owners, they know what they want. And like any business it is being run to minimise costs but achieve their target.
Target this season is stability....and anywhere from mid table to the last safe spot will be seen as hitting that target. The budgets will be adjusted accordingly depending on how the club appears to be hitting its targets, and Wilder will be crucial in having his say and determining those budgets.

For example, if he was to meet the board and lay it on that his opinion was that we will struggle unless they sign players...then he has earned the respect enough to be trusted that it will be done.
If he on the other hand says in December that with a little more investment we will make the play offs then it will be done.
If he is happy that the target will be met this season with the budget he has, then he will settle for that....provided that the target the following season is raised to match his ambitions and he is given the tools to realistically achieve it.

It's an evolving and steady approach. The exact approach we should have without the billions available from a mad man happy to never need the money back.

 

[Houston_Blade]

I would honestly rather have 1 year in the PL, 2 in the Championship and 2 in League 1 out of every 5 seasons than be Stoke. Although I get the point about not going mad with transfer fees and the like I really don't want us to be PL also ran's every year with the odd flirt with top 8 and bottom 3 thrown in for good measure, it would be boring. Give me poor managerial appointments followed by good ones, promotions and relegations as well as never knowing which young player will be sold for a pittance next over being Stoke any day of the week. As long as we do the above within the financial envelope that we have, don't rip fans off and don't sign big time charlie's I'm a happy man.

 

[Grizzly blade]

Agree with that to be fair....if it's monotonous season after season of boredom I would rather see a few ups and downs.
If it's season after season premier league...odd cup run possibly final, and an aim to try and sneak a European spot then I'm well up for that.

 

[seanbeenstattoo]

I'll start by saying I have no idea what the relationship between McCabe and his co owner is like. Whether they like each other,how often they meet,talk,plan. How Wilders requirements are processed and how decisions on player sales are made.
However,it seems reasonable to think there is ample opportunity for ineffeciency given the logistics involved and the he said she said possibilities of multi level communications.
Maybe they all got together at the end of last season and Wilder layed out his list of requirements,and projected monetary spend. The recent attempts at recruitment after the initial whirlwind incomings seems very stop start.
I stress I have no inside knowledge so am speaking as a complete outsider. I do agree with the post above that we APPEAR to be conducting our transfer business at a level long gone. Bringing up the "Well we stiffed Blackburn over Slew" is frankly irrelevant bollocks. ANY purchase of an unproven player is a gamble,but in 2017 £5m to £15m to a prem club is loose change. I geet the impression Wilder wants at least 3 more players. GK MF and CF with the latter 2 better than what we have. That will cost a few quid. Lets hope,as Wilder hopes that funding will as he puts it be signed off.

 

[seanbeenstattoo]

I would honestly rather have 1 year in the PL, 2 in the Championship and 2 in League 1 out of every 5 seasons than be Stoke. Although I get the point about not going mad with transfer fees and the like I really don't want us to be PL also ran's every year with the odd flirt with top 8 and bottom 3 thrown in for good measure, it would be boring. Give me poor managerial appointments followed by good ones, promotions and relegations as well as never knowing which young player will be sold for a pittance next over being Stoke any day of the week. As long as we do the above within the financial envelope that we have, don't rip fans off and don't sign big time charlie's I'm a happy man.

Have you actually watched Stoke over the last year or two?

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

We are a far bigger club than Stoke. Not only that, we can do it by playing proper football.

History of the last 50 years makes the first sentence dubious. The second sentence is an act of faith, based on one good year in League 3. I hope you are right, but it is a long way from being certain.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Have you actually watched Stoke over the last year or two?

Not at all. I don't tend to have time to watch Premier League football and have very little interest in it. Are they now like Real Madrid?

 

[Sirius]

In terms of adopting a long-term survival strategy, why rely on the example of one club?

Southampton and Stoke have been mentioned, and possibly Bournemouth too, but the truth is we shouldn't be too proud when it comes to learning, so we should take from whichever clubs who seem to found a way to keep their head above water. The question of selling homegrown players interests me, and how little we seem to be happy to pass them onto clubs who we often fail to haggle with. It's a generalisation of course, but I do feel we're pretty amateur when it comes to asking a fee that reflects the value of a player we've coached and help to find some kind of potential. At times it's as if we're the village team who seem happy to accept a figure that is at the lower end of the seven figure debate. We've often accepted the figure of a million or thereabouts as if we couldn't bank it quick enough, yet the game has moved on and we appear stuck in a rut where realistic transfer fees are concerned...........who actually decides these valuations? Manager? A small group consisting of Manager and Directors? Maybe it's time for the club to headhunt an acknowledged and proven transfer negotiator, someone savvy enough to have their finger on the pulse plus determined enough to add sell-on clauses that will benefit the club should we sell.

They have offered free away travel for five years running now! Interesting to know how that's kept going.

Prefer Southampton as the model. They remind me of wind power energy here in Scandinavia; sustainability is key.

We should take lessons from Levi at Spuds. No shrinking violet he
Think of a value, double or treble it and tell the buyers to take it or leave it

 

[seanbeenstattoo]

Not at all. I don't tend to have time to watch Premier League football and have very little interest in it. Are they now like Real Madrid?

So you're slagging off a team based on old news. Just like a Stoke fan might call us hoof due to Bassett.
I wouldn't say Stoke are like Real Madrid,but then noone else is either.
Stoke play decent football,as anyone with the likes of Shaqiri would do. They defend very well,are athletic,press the ball and counter attack with bags of pace.
You can see for yourself tomorrow night.

 

[ant88]

Isnt Stokes owner the guy who owns Spar?

Billionaire is memory serves me correctly?

Theres no reason we cant emaulate Stoke, but not the playing side of it if CW is still our manager.

We have a decent chief scout but I dont know much about our scouting network. Do we even have scouts based overseas? I doubt it!!

i thought the stoke owner owned bet 365??

 

[Houston_Blade]

So you're slagging off a team based on old news. Just like a Stoke fan might call us hoof due to Bassett.
I wouldn't say Stoke are like Real Madrid,but then noone else is either.
Stoke play decent football,as anyone with the likes of Shaqiri would do. They defend very well,are athletic,press the ball and counter attack with bags of pace.
You can see for yourself tomorrow night.

You've clearly not read the post that you commented on. Nowhere in that post did I comment on Stoke's style of play, just the fact that I don't want a team who sit in the middle of the Premier League with very little prospect of excitement from one year to the next. I know that's the holy grail for some but I actually prefer a few ups and downs along the way. You may not agree and that's your point of view but please do read things before you try to start an irrelevant debate.

 

[Davalon]

i thought the stoke owner owned bet 365??

He does. Peter Coates. Obscenely wealthy.

And Stoke have still spent plenty. It's a myth that they haven't.

I admire what they've done but they certainly aren't a blueprint for us.

 

[Pollingtonblade]

Stoke were in relegation trouble in January 2009, their first PL season.

They signed James Beattie, who got the goals they needed to keep them up, and have been there ever since.

Beattie was a bargain: he cost less than he'd been signed for by the selling club.

That's astute management right there.

There was another club playing in red and white who were in relegation trouble 2 years previously, they went out and signed Luton Shelton and waited till after they were relegated to sign a proven goalscorer.

 

[seanbeenstattoo]

You've clearly not read the post that you commented on. Nowhere in that post did I comment on Stoke's style of play, just the fact that I don't want a team who sit in the middle of the Premier League with very little prospect of excitement from one year to the next. I know that's the holy grail for some but I actually prefer a few ups and downs along the way. You may not agree and that's your point of view but please do read things before you try to start an irrelevant debate.

Fair do's.
Not wanting us to emulate Stokes league position is wanting us not to achieve our potential.Realistically we cannot hope to be top 6 prem,but given football is a competitive sport with a pyramid structure I would prefer to see us compete at the level we can reasonably expect to given our size,fanbase and resources. I certainly want that above the lot of Burnley or Hull to give 2 examples of clubs that emulate your desires.