Segregation

[The Glasshouse Blade]

Just watched another weekends rounds of football which was dominated as always by the Premiership, but that gave me a chance to look at the segregation in these top games, and in almost every instance it's none existent or just a line of stewards.

When we play the 1/4 final, if its the pigs how many of our 32,600 seats will be used for segregation, its scary to think it will be circa 3,000 which is absolutely ridiculous.

Someone recently blamed the fact that it could be our safety certificate which is also an astonishing point of view, as if we'd build stands and filled them with seats for them not to be used!! our ground has every seat passed for safety, this is purely down to SYP.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Just watched another weekends rounds of football which was dominated as always by the Premiership, but that gave me a chance to look at the segregation in these top games, and in almost every instance it's none existent or just a line of stewards.

When we play the 1/4 final, if its the pigs how many of our 32,600 seats will be used for segregation, its scary to think it will be circa 3,000 which is absolutely ridiculous.

Someone recently blamed the fact that it could be our safety certificate which is also an astonishing point of view, as if we'd build stands and filled them with seats for them not to be used!! our ground has every seat passed for safety, this is purely down to SYP.

Why do people worry about how many pigs we can get in.

fuck 'em.

 

[metalblade]

Why do people worry about how many pigs we can get in.

fuck 'em.

he was worried how many Charlton fans would be let in

 

[SwissBlade]

Bob Havenhand

It stems back to previous troubles, I believe.

Leeds 2003
Pigs (flare and bother) 2003
Norwich (I think) (not sure what year)
The above was supposed to have been sorted with improved CCTV and closing G& H block over the years.

Man City FA cup - probably around 2008

I don't know if our away supports behaviour also comes into it, but we've been involved with a number of games with flares/ smoke bombs this season

And you can probably add the number of offences on Sunday such as flares/ smoke bombs and numerous pitch invasions

Not sure if all of the above still applies or if were any better/ worse than other clubs but it seems were treated worse than other clubs with decent attendances.

Perhaps Foxy and Linz can shed more light/ raise these issues at the next SLO meeting

 

[metalblade]

Of course we are treat worse Swiss, especially by the local media. When pig fans chased Palace players into the tunnel throwing punches all the way hardly a word was said and it was all played down, nothing much said about the Palace fans including women and children being terrorised inside and outside the sty, in sharp contrast to the day a Leeds scum run on the field and pushed the pig keeper Kirkland in the face. Yes I know it was on TV but still the local papers and radio had a real wank fest that it should happed to a pig player. Short and selective memories in the media around these parts.

 

[stannyblade]

Said it before, if it's the pigs we should give them the bare minimum tickets we are allowed to.

 

[Linz]

The segregation is is down to the Safety Advisory Group which according to the Sheffield council site is made up of:

• South Yorkshire Police
  
  
• South Yorkshire Fire and Rescue
  
  
• Our Building Standards team
  
  
• Our Health and Safety team
  
  
• South Yorkshire Ambulance Service.

More reading:

https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/busine...al-licensing/sports/sports-ground-safety.html

http://www.hse.gov.uk/event-safety/safety-advisory-groups.htm

So "astonishing" as it may be, it isn't just the coppers who have a say.

 

[Crouchy]

There wouldn't be any segregation if people didn't act like twats. They didn't seem to need row after row of OB at Twickenham over the weekend.

 

[Lane Ender]

Said it before, if it's the pigs we should give them the bare minimum tickets we are allowed to.

Give em 50 tickets in H block South Stand

 

[WhiteHawk]

West Ham v Spurs last year.

 

[frechyblade]

The big metal barriers are in the car park today, ready for deployment Sunday I presume. I really can't see there being much trouble anyway.

UTB

 

[sothall blade]

Said it before, if it's the pigs we should give them the bare minimum tickets we are allowed to.

BDTBL aint big enough to hold the massive

 

[cooperblade]

Article about the new segregation used at Huddersfield

http://www.htafc.com/news/article/2...outh-stand-segregation-ann-hough-3710463.aspx

 

[Booker4]

We actually lose more seats due to a retricted view than we do SAG. Its the pigs who lose more (33,000 capacity these days) because they're ground is old/crap/not fit for full capacity!

 

[RealMcCoy]

Article about the new segregation used at Huddersfield

http://www.htafc.com/news/article/2...outh-stand-segregation-ann-hough-3710463.aspx

Looks like a really good idea that.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Segregation is becoming a vitally important issue in Sheffield football.
Next season we will get a few gates of 30K and games where away demand is 3 to 4K.

That idea given in the link of having temporary fencing separating blocks is something the clubs needs to consider.

Also we need to put up internal barriers splitting concourse areas (like what happened against Chesterfield) and

Also we need to have HD CCTV cameras highly visible within the stadium with plenty of signs saying "HD CCTC in operation. Anyone breaching stadium security will be severely dealt with".

 

[Grizzly blade]

Cost gents....all those stewards and police to form a barrier is a bit more expensive than a barrier of netting and a gap large gap.

If the club are prepared to pay for it we can do it.

 

[Sheffsteel]

West Ham v Spurs last year.

That photo is hilarious.
Imagine if that was at Bramall Lane or Hillsboro for a Sheffield Derby?

However there's a train of thought that when you place rival fans in different stands with a big no mans land netted off then it encourages bad behaviour and hostile gesturing etc.

Alternatively place rival fans next to each other like above then behaviour instantly improves.
I've always said these days the technology in High Definition CCTV is really impressive.
Just have loads of cameras pointing at fans with plenty of warning signs and pre match warnings about banning orders from the stadium announcer then behaviour would improve massively.

 

[Worksop II]

Cost gents....all those stewards and police to form a barrier is a bit more expensive than a barrier of netting and a gap large gap.

If the club are prepared to pay for it we can do it.

I hear McCabe rents the netting to SUFC ........................................

 

[S64 Blade]

Cost gents....all those stewards and police to form a barrier is a bit more expensive than a barrier of netting and a gap large gap.

If the club are prepared to pay for it we can do it.

Depends if a loss of say 1,500 seats, in ticket revenue (plus other income - food etc.), exceeds the cost of stewards and police. I suspect not.

 

[Grizzly blade]

Depends if a loss of say 1,500 seats, in ticket revenue (plus other income - food etc.), exceeds the cost of stewards and police. I suspect not.

Cost of seats....£25....plus extras...say 40k total for 1500 seats.

cost of police...£25 per hour for minimum 6 hours. Such a segregation line would require an extra 100 cops minimum over the normal due to the closer proximity of fans and thus increased risk. So say £15k
Extra stewards...£7 per hour, minimum 100 extra. Also 5 hours minimum work...£3.5k

These figures are rough estimates....actual extra numbers may be a lot higher while the companies supplying the stewards may charge more than just wages as they need to cover expenses of busing them in etc, and make a profit themselves of course.

So yes, in essence it is worth doing.....assuming you will sell all of those tickets of course. If you can be sure it will be a sell out then it's financially sound. But unless you can be sure you are struggling, because raising that number of extra stewards and police takes time and suitable warning has to be given well in advance...certainly with the police.
Club won't want to suggest extra stewards and police then be left with empty seats as well.
At the moment, we sell enough seats to allow the segregation to stay as it is. But going forwards...with bigger games and increased support then we may expect a few more sell outs to come.

 

[S64 Blade]

Cost of seats....£25....plus extras...say 40k total for 1500 seats.

cost of police...£25 per hour for minimum 6 hours. Such a segregation line would require an extra 100 cops minimum over the normal due to the closer proximity of fans and thus increased risk. So say £15k
Extra stewards...£7 per hour, minimum 100 extra. Also 5 hours minimum work...£3.5k

These figures are rough estimates....actual extra numbers may be a lot higher while the companies supplying the stewards may charge more than just wages as they need to cover expenses of busing them in etc, and make a profit themselves of course.

So yes, in essence it is worth doing.....assuming you will sell all of those tickets of course. If you can be sure it will be a sell out then it's financially sound. But unless you can be sure you are struggling, because raising that number of extra stewards and police takes time and suitable warning has to be given well in advance...certainly with the police.
Club won't want to suggest extra stewards and police then be left with empty seats as well.
At the moment, we sell enough seats to allow the segregation to stay as it is. But going forwards...with bigger games and increased support then we may expect a few more sell outs to come.

Police don't need to form the segregation in the ground. Look at Premier League games and it is predominantly stewards on minimum wage, with a few police.

Not sure why you quote 100 of each either. We won't have that in all of the ground! The link for Huddersfield's solution is a steward every 3 steps. Bramall Lane lower tier has how many rows? 30? That's say 10 stewards and maybe a few Police. Would probably need a few nearby to the police the track along the bottom, but still way off the 200 additional security staff you quote.

20 stewards max = £700
10 additional police = £1,500

Even doubling these figures, which when taking into the context with the rest of the ground, would be a huge overkill, it is still financially viable.

You'd suspect most clubs not selling out a large allocation would also be low risk from a security point of view - Ipswich, Fulham etc. The only teams I can think of that may require additional police to further cover the gangway would be Cardiff, Bristol City and Millwall (should they go up).

As you say, much of this depends on our own ticket sales too.

 

[South Bucks]

Cost gents....all those stewards and police to form a barrier is a bit more expensive than a barrier of netting and a gap large gap.

If the club are prepared to pay for it we can do it.

But we sell more tickets if we don't have acres under netting. If Man City vs Man U recently can get away with a line of stewards I hope someone at the club asks the powers that be why we can't have the same. Could easily be a few sell outs next season and every blade helps.

 

[blade too long]

the safety council that ok ed the fa cup semi final at hillsborough in 89 consisted of
a wednesday finance director
a 15 year old on work experience lad
a police member of the free masons lodge

 

[snootyfenooty]

having temporary fencing separating blocks is something the clubs needs to consider.

I don't think that idea is going to catch on in Sheffield somehow.

 

[Grizzly blade]

Police don't need to form the segregation in the ground. Look at Premier League games and it is predominantly stewards on minimum wage, with a few police.

Not sure why you quote 100 of each either. We won't have that in all of the ground! The link for Huddersfield's solution is a steward every 3 steps. Bramall Lane lower tier has how many rows? 30? That's say 10 stewards and maybe a few Police. Would probably need a few nearby to the police the track along the bottom, but still way off the 200 additional security staff you quote.

20 stewards max = £700
10 additional police = £1,500

Even doubling these figures, which when taking into the context with the rest of the ground, would be a huge overkill, it is still financially viable.

You'd suspect most clubs not selling out a large allocation would also be low risk from a security point of view - Ipswich, Fulham etc. The only teams I can think of that may require additional police to further cover the gangway would be Cardiff, Bristol City and Millwall (should they go up).

As you say, much of this depends on our own ticket sales too.

What happens if that group of fans kick off? Are those stewards going to do anything? As you say, on minimum wage etc?
Fact is mate, that the police step in, so sufficient numbers have to be there ready to deal if needed. Yes you can say certain teams are riskier than others, but with opposing fans there is still some risk. And in today's modern era of litigation, complaints, and police bashing they will cover themselves for every tactical option. If 30-40 start scrapping you want 70-80 cops to deal.
Now, something I didn't mention or factor before...is mutual aid and back operations. Increased risk means supplying extra staff in custody suites for possible problems for example.
SYP have numerous football teams in their force area and a smaller number of cops since the cuts. So often, you will see cops bussed in from other forces....the costs of this are huge, and often mean 10-12 hr shifts on overtime, plus extra costs of travel, food etc. Supplying a cop on wage alone is one thing, but if you want a serial of riot cops the cost is even higher.

My figures were general but well reasoned, not just plucked out of the air.

 

[S64 Blade]

What happens if that group of fans kick off? Are those stewards going to do anything? As you say, on minimum wage etc?
Fact is mate, that the police step in, so sufficient numbers have to be there ready to deal if needed. Yes you can say certain teams are riskier than others, but with opposing fans there is still some risk. And in today's modern era of litigation, complaints, and police bashing they will cover themselves for every tactical option. If 30-40 start scrapping you want 70-80 cops to deal.
Now, something I didn't mention or factor before...is mutual aid and back operations. Increased risk means supplying extra staff in custody suites for possible problems for example.
SYP have numerous football teams in their force area and a smaller number of cops since the cuts. So often, you will see cops bussed in from other forces....the costs of this are huge, and often mean 10-12 hr shifts on overtime, plus extra costs of travel, food etc. Supplying a cop on wage alone is one thing, but if you want a serial of riot cops the cost is even higher.

My figures were general but well reasoned, not just plucked out of the air.

The figures you quote aren't relative at all. We didnt have 100 stewards or police at the away the ground when there has been 5000 Wednesday fans (or other large following).What if they kicked off?

If your argument is valid, why hasn't there been more police and stewards this season?

 

[Grizzly blade]

The figures you quote aren't relative at all. We didnt have 100 stewards or police at the away the ground when there has been 5000 Wednesday fans (or other large following).What if they kicked off?

If your argument is valid, why hasn't there been more police and stewards this season?

Did you see them?

No....and you won't either necessarily because they will be all over the place in various different locations.
Some outside the ground, some inside. Some at a car park, others near pubs etc.

I can absolutely assure you there will be well over 100 cops on duty at the lane minimum for every game. What I am saying is that if you increase the risk at a game...which with little to no separation or segregation you do, then the number of police on duty increases accordingly.
Another fact....last night at Scunny there were 180 police on duty for the game. Plus over 100 stewards, 50 alone in the away end. Attendance was 7k, and the usual segregation existed there. On top of that all Millwall fans were held back and ushered straight to coaches by a police line.
There was around 1000 Millwall last night as they didn't sell out.

How do I know this? Well that's what comes with working there myself.

 

[FTPE]

What kind of segregation do they have in turkey, Poland and Greece?
How far can you throw a knife anyway?

 

[metalblade]

Article about the new segregation used at Huddersfield

http://www.htafc.com/news/article/2...outh-stand-segregation-ann-hough-3710463.aspx

This would only work on a single tiered stand which is why I keep on saying the John st stand should be the one used to house away fans, this system would be ideal to split that stand which is rarely sold out anyway.