Genius of Wilder/Knill, part 37

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

It seems the rest of football is beginning to catch up. Arsenal have played 3 at the back and 2 wing-backs for the last 2 games, and have begun to turn their season round. Trouble is, if everybody begins to play this way, we will lose an advantage we have had this season. But the track record of CW/AK this season suggests they will be thinking ahead, in case. Happy days.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

It seems the rest of football is beginning to catch up. Arsenal have played 3 at the back and 2 wing-backs for the last 2 games, and have begun to turn their season round. Trouble is, if everybody begins to play this way, we will lose an advantage we have had this season. But the track record of CW/AK this season suggests they will be thinking ahead, in case. Happy days.

We can praise them for plenty this season but I hardly think they invented 3 at the back

 

[DronnieBlade]

Please see my posts from 2012.

It's not garlic bread anymore. It's 3:5:2 (or 3:4:1:2 as the management team prefer)

UTB

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

We can praise them for plenty this season but I hardly think they invented 3 at the back

Agreed. I was being flippant with the Arsenal reference. If I have a serious point in mind, it is that the system has been unusual for our league, and caught some teams out by surprise. I assumed until recently that it would not be our preferred system in a higher league, but it does seem to have been more used in the higher leagues recently.

 

[Tunstall Fred]

We played 2 at the back at times on Saturday after James Wilson went off,thats the future,back to the old W formation

 

[MobileBlade]

Please see my posts from 2012.

It's not garlic bread anymore. It's 3:5:2 (or 3:4:1:2 as the management team prefer)

UTB

Isn't it 1-3-4-1-2. Sorry Nigel.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

We played 2 at the back at times on Saturday after James Wilson went off,thats the future,back to the old W formation

The W formation does go back some way. By the time I started the centre-half had moved to the back, and made 3 defenders, usually with one of the half-backs (Richardson) more defensive, almost making 4 at the back. Your comment got me looking at old formations -apparently England v Scotland, 1872, England played 1-1-8 and Scotland played 2-2-6, and with 14 attackers on the pitch, the score was .... 0-0! The internet is great for wasting time.

 

[Grizzly blade]

Whether it's 3, 4 or 5 at the back, the key to success is having players capable of keeping the ball in the opponents half allowing the defenders to push on and create overloads.

I made a similar reference couple of days ago to our managers leading the way for a change and others looking at what we are doing.
But the beauty of having 3 and utilising wing backs is that it allows Bash and JOC to bomb forward and carry the ball causing all sorts of problems. It's the flexibility that is so hard for opponents to defend against so they just end up sitting deep.
The way to combat us, is to actually push onto our defence and flood midfield. Cut off the supply high up the pitch. But you have to be very fit and have some pace to do it, and make sure you keep the ball when you get it off us.

 

[ShefRedandWhite]

What's most impressive is our preparedness and how well (and quickly) we react to our formations not working well against other teams.

Credit all round - to the coaching team for knowing exactly what to do and when to do it. And for the players for buying into it so well!

Hopefully we can carry this on in the league(s) above!

 

[BushBlade]

Am I imagining it or did Porterfield switch to three at the back during the 83/4 season?

 

[coaxingstar71]

Agreed. I was being flippant with the Arsenal reference. If I have a serious point in mind, it is that the system has been unusual for our league, and caught some teams out by surprise. I assumed until recently that it would not be our preferred system in a higher league, but it does seem to have been more used in the higher leagues recently.

I think it's been more of a case of putting round pegs in round holes, or in other words playing a formation that best suits the players available. I'd say there are two methods that dictates how you play. The manager sets his formation and tactics and builds a team based on it or, especially when you're limited in terms of the players at your disposal, you implement a system that best suits the players that you've got. Wilder quickly realised that he couldn't play his favoured 4-4-2 with the players he'd got so he reverted to 3-5-2 (or 3-4-1-2) to suit the players, and hats off to him and Knill for having the balls to do it and making it work.

I'll be interested to see what happens in the summer and what formation we'll be playing at the start of next season. Will he recruit to play a more orthodox 4-4-2 or will he now stick with the 3-4-1-2 that has worked so well. I suppose the key is to have a squad of players that can adapt and play just as well in any formation. Without wishing to go off on a tangent about it, I think we'd need to sign a very good CB to play 4 at the back and possibly a defensive midfielder enforcer type at the very least.

 

[Bladey McBladeface]

We will know Wilder's intentions based on whether he signs wingers this summer.

At the moment we don't have a genuine winger at the club.

I think he will stick to 3-5-2 though because it gets the best out of Freeman and the plethora of Number 10s we've got.

 

[Boxer Blade]

Whether it's 3, 4 or 5 at the back, the key to success is having players capable of keeping the ball in the opponents half allowing the defenders to push on and create overloads.

I made a similar reference couple of days ago to our managers leading the way for a change and others looking at what we are doing.
But the beauty of having 3 and utilising wing backs is that it allows Bash and JOC to bomb forward and carry the ball causing all sorts of problems. It's the flexibility that is so hard for opponents to defend against so they just end up sitting deep.
The way to combat us, is to actually push onto our defence and flood midfield. Cut off the supply high up the pitch. But you have to be very fit and have some pace to do it, and make sure you keep the ball when you get it off us.

And some how keep it up for 80+ minutes

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

It's all about having adaptable players comfortable on the ball and this season we've got it. Certain teams have nullified us this season but not had the skills to take advantage, this will be the key next season as we'll come against teams who will.

Will Freeman and Lafferty be able to be as 'gung-ho' for example and undoubtedly they'll be tested more as defenders. Most teams in this division sit back which has suited us, different story next season for the most part. Wilder and Knill haven't operated at that level before which could work in our favour, the good thing is that they've shown that they can get the best out of what we have and also bought well for the future. Will be an interesting few months in terms of the comings and goings.

 

[Liverpool blade]

Whether it's 3, 4 or 5 at the back, the key to success is having players capable of keeping the ball in the opponents half allowing the defenders to push on and create overloads.

I made a similar reference couple of days ago to our managers leading the way for a change and others looking at what we are doing.
But the beauty of having 3 and utilising wing backs is that it allows Bash and JOC to bomb forward and carry the ball causing all sorts of problems. It's the flexibility that is so hard for opponents to defend against so they just end up sitting deep.
The way to combat us, is to actually push onto our defence and flood midfield. Cut off the supply high up the pitch. But you have to be very fit and have some pace to do it, and make sure you keep the ball when you get it off us.

. I think a few teams will struggle against us next season just due to our intensity!

 

[Rodders]

Essentially we need to stick it in one end and keep it out the other. Nige knew all along.

 

[Champagneblade]

Agreed. I was being flippant with the Arsenal reference. If I have a serious point in mind, it is that the system has been unusual for our league, and caught some teams out by surprise. I assumed until recently that it would not be our preferred system in a higher league, but it does seem to have been more used in the higher leagues recently.

It's the exact same system Bristol City got promoted with.

Difference from last year is that we actually had a plan in place for most of the season as opposed to making random changes when something didn't work and hoping it would click.

We also signed young and hungry players. Not the likes of Dean Hammond and Martyn Woolford!

 

[BushBlade]

I think it's been more of a case of putting round pegs in round holes, or in other words playing a formation that best suits the players available. I'd say there are two methods that dictates how you play. The manager sets his formation and tactics and builds a team based on it or, especially when you're limited in terms of the players at your disposal, you implement a system that best suits the players that you've got. Wilder quickly realised that he couldn't play his favoured 4-4-2 with the players he'd got so he reverted to 3-5-2 (or 3-4-1-2) to suit the players, and hats off to him and Knill for having the balls to do it and making it work.

I'll be interested to see what happens in the summer and what formation we'll be playing at the start of next season. Will he recruit to play a more orthodox 4-4-2 or will he now stick with the 3-4-1-2 that has worked so well. I suppose the key is to have a squad of players that can adapt and play just as well in any formation. Without wishing to go off on a tangent about it, I think we'd need to sign a very good CB to play 4 at the back and possibly a defensive midfielder enforcer type at the very least.

I thought his preferred formation was 4231? That's what many on here said when he was first appointed.
He's quite rare as I tend to think of managers as being one or the other, they either have a system and stick to it or are reactive and just pick a system and style that gets results. The former tend to be better long term, if you have the finances to bring in the necessary players and the latter are good impact managers with a limited shelf life.
Managers like CW, that can adapt their systems but remain within a general philosophy tend to manage mainly in the top leagues.

 

[COME BACK CHED]

The number of players these two , have got a great tune out of that cost nowt ,is incredible , players that would have been worth a fortune ,in the transfer Window , but in reality have been worth little to other clubs ' once sold .

 

[Blade56]

The number of players these two , have got a great tune out of that cost nowt ,is incredible , players that would have been worth a fortune ,in the transfer Window , but in reality have been worth little to other clubs ' once sold .

But do we want to stay a club that relies on average players that cost nowt being whip into grind a result out grafting OR develop into a technically competent modern attacking football club. Dinosaurs are dying out.

Warnock
Smith
Dyche
Cooper
Mccarthy
Appleton

 

[COME BACK CHED]

Better than getting in Debt

 

[Big.Dane.w]

Better than getting in Debt

But these type of players you like don’t have any re sale value whatsoever, in fact most end up no use to us when coming to the end of their contracts but still being paid handsomely. If we bought smarter and developed players the increase in their value when eventually sold on would outweigh the wages paid to them while they’re with us, so there is actually no debt that you worry about. Brewster wasn’t scouted properly, a complete panic buy that I doubt we’ll ever repeat but players with fee’s like Cannon only need a good season and they’re worth 18 mil upwards which means he’d have done a job for us and cost us nothing. Same with Burrows, Cooper, Anel etc. Really need to move on from bringing in players that are ‘worth little to other clubs’ as you say.

Moore is a perfect example of this, he will be here for 3 years! I’m fine with these type of players coming in on loan to help us out but we shouldn’t be giving out 3 year contracts to players that are worthless in the end.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

This 8-year-old thread reappeared this morning, and by mid-afternoon Wilder has a contract extension. I wonder if the new owners want to consult me on any other matters