That was dog shit

[JohnDenver]

Could you expand on what you think was Pyhrric about it? No broken legs, no red cards.....

I presumed he was just being provocative, as we earned the points at the cost of errr.... nowt.

 

[Pinchy]

Right enough, when OUR forwards miss chances it's because they're useless oxygen thieves.
When opponents miss chances, WE'RE lucky.
Never quite understood that

There's nothing to understand. Luck played no part in our victory whatsoever. No goals given that should not have been or not given when they should have been. No crazy deflections. No goalbound shots hitting the ref. No crucial free-kicks or penalties that never were. Nobody getting a red card that shouldn't have. No defenders slipping on banana skins. Nothing.

 

[Sean Thornton]

This discussion has been done to death and I know where you stand on the "luck" point. If every player was aiming for an exact point and was hitting it to score, then I would agree but in reality, there is an element of luck with every cross and header. Players aim for a general area, other players make runs. Normally you will need to attempt it lots of times for a player to lose his man and connect with the cross at just the right height etc. We were lucky in the sense that we put less of those balls in than you would expect to have to in order to get an unmarked header on goal. They put more of those balls in and there were plenty of ricochets around our 6 yard box that on another day could have dropped for an empty net for them. Not every movement of the ball in football is intentional. Ricochets can be kind or otherwise and we got our fair share of fortune. I thought we were poor in the sense that we didn't look as energetic as we have in some games, we miscontrolled the ball poorly on several occasions, we misplaced many passes and struggled to cope with their passing and movement at times. But as you say, our keeper made saves and we made blocks etc. to grind out the result so we take it and move on and hope to have more control and impose ourselves more, creating more in future games because if we don't, we won't consistently win those sort of games.

But when McCabe talks of bad luck or ill luck he's ripped to bits. It's how football is. The defence kept a clean sheet. Lucky or they did their job. We didn't score more goals. Unlucky or a lack of penetration in the right areas. Your argument calls into question every ball game in the world. Every rugby pass, every cover drive, feielding catch, chip, putt and bunker shot. Plus whenever we play lots of balls into the area and nobody is on the end of them is that unlucky? Or just poor decision making?

I think some on here struggle when there's nothing bad happening at the club.

 

[Bert]

But when McCabe talks of bad luck or ill luck he's ripped to bits. It's how football is. The defence kept a clean sheet. Lucky or they did their job. We didn't score more goals. Unlucky or a lack of penetration in the right areas. Your argument calls into question every ball game in the world. Every rugby pass, every cover drive, feielding catch, chip, putt and bunker shot. Plus whenever we play lots of balls into the area and nobody is on the end of them is that unlucky? Or just poor decision making?

I think some on here struggle when there's nothing bad happening at the club.

Indeed, one or two posters have vanished. Another excellent consequence of our great run of form.

 

[Esablade]

But when McCabe talks of bad luck or ill luck he's ripped to bits. It's how football is. The defence kept a clean sheet. Lucky or they did their job. We didn't score more goals. Unlucky or a lack of penetration in the right areas. Your argument calls into question every ball game in the world. Every rugby pass, every cover drive, feielding catch, chip, putt and bunker shot. Plus whenever we play lots of balls into the area and nobody is on the end of them is that unlucky? Or just poor decision making?

I think some on here struggle when there's nothing bad happening at the club.

Bad luck happens to you, it's seldom planned...

 

[1danewhitehouse]

But when McCabe talks of bad luck or ill luck he's ripped to bits. It's how football is. The defence kept a clean sheet. Lucky or they did their job. We didn't score more goals. Unlucky or a lack of penetration in the right areas. Your argument calls into question every ball game in the world. Every rugby pass, every cover drive, feielding catch, chip, putt and bunker shot. Plus whenever we play lots of balls into the area and nobody is on the end of them is that unlucky? Or just poor decision making?

I think some on here struggle when there's nothing bad happening at the club.

Of course you can micro-analyse every incident but I think generally you would get a consensus that a team has been at least a tad fortunate if they've won the game whilst creating less than the opposition.

As for McCabe and luck. There have been incidents of bad luck but I think there is a perception that Kev leans on it to try to absolve himself of blame for a sustained period of failure. Isolated incidents of bad luck don't condemn a team to 6 years punching well below it's weight. Maybe it could explain one, possibly even 2 seasons ending badly. I would say we were "unlucky" in that West Ham weren't appropriately punished over the Tevez saga (though we contributed to our own downfall) and if Ched clears his name next week, we can feel aggrieved at missing out to the pigs. It doesn't excuse years of awful decision making though. Similarly, we can have luck that gets us a win on a given night but it won't carry us through the season. Fortunately, I believe we can and will play much better. A big part of that will be getting back to 352 so I hope Jake Wright is back for the weekend.

 

[Grecian2000]

I'll be upfront, these days, due to a lack of mobility

At last, we've uncovered the words Higdon replied when asked what his position would be at BDTBL.

 

[itsinyerblood]

At last, we've uncovered the words Higdon replied when asked what his position would be at BDTBL.

I doubt Higdon has been alone in repeating those words UTB

 

[Sean Thornton]

Of course you can micro-analyse every incident but I think generally you would get a consensus that a team has been at least a tad fortunate if they've won the game whilst creating less than the opposition.

As for McCabe and luck. There have been incidents of bad luck but I think there is a perception that Kev leans on it to try to absolve himself of blame for a sustained period of failure. Isolated incidents of bad luck don't condemn a team to 6 years punching well below it's weight. Maybe it could explain one, possibly even 2 seasons ending badly. I would say we were "unlucky" in that West Ham weren't appropriately punished over the Tevez saga (though we contributed to our own downfall) and if Ched clears his name next week, we can feel aggrieved at missing out to the pigs. It doesn't excuse years of awful decision making though. Similarly, we can have luck that gets us a win on a given night but it won't carry us through the season. Fortunately, I believe we can and will play much better. A big part of that will be getting back to 352 so I hope Jake Wright is back for the weekend.

My point about MxCabe was a general one in that as far as he's concerned, luck, of whatever kind, doesn't exist.

The point is though you can't micro analyse everything in football. A player shoots, he intends to score, probably John Fashanu and Bronco Layne apart, it doesn't go in, is he unlucky ? The Team got three points against a side that looked a handful last night and we are "lucky". When we lose a simikar type of game, those people don't say unlucky, we were shit is the mantra.

I'll stick with dog shit and lucky as far as the forum goes if we keep climbing the table, and those that struggle with decent form can carry on posting the same old waiting for the next poor performance.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I doubt Higdon has been alone in repeating those words UTB

I bet he's said them more than once himself.

 

[itsinyerblood]

I bet he's said them more than once himself.

You would think so Sean, but I wonder if Higdon, like many others, has deluded themselves about their attributes? When you look at the mobility, nous, and all round capability we now possess (not suggesting there isn't room for improvement, but we're so much better now than the last few years) you wonder why Higdon was ever considered an effective threat?

 

[TJB.]

At what point were we lucky? Please don't include opposition players missing chances or our keeper making saves. Such things depend upon ability [or lack thereof] and have absolutely nothing to do with luck. We were not 'poor' either, but that's a matter of opinion. The 'luck' thing is manifest bollocks.

Immediately after scoring our opening goal, their lad loses his head and flies in with an elbow to get himself sent off. In less than a minute, Brizzle find themselves a goal down and a man down in a game where we hadn't really been in it much.

You don't think that's a little bit fortuitous?

 

[Bartyblade]

Immediately after scoring our opening goal, their lad loses his head and flies in with an elbow to get himself sent off. In less than a minute, Brizzle find themselves a goal down and a man down in a game where we hadn't really been in it much.

You don't think that's a little bit fortuitous?

Did he lose his head because he'dbeen struck by a moonbeam, or did he get frustrated because we did what we (and they) were trying to do - score a goal?

 

[Pinchy]

Immediately after scoring our opening goal, their lad loses his head and flies in with an elbow to get himself sent off. In less than a minute, Brizzle find themselves a goal down and a man down in a game where we hadn't really been in it much.

You don't think that's a little bit fortuitous?

That their player deliberately acts violently outside the laws of the game and gets an inevitable red card? That this happens immediately after we score a well-crafted and perfectly legitimate goal?

No I don't. Not in the slightest. I'm astonished that anyone would think it is.

 

[TJB.]

That their player deliberately acts violently outside the laws of the game and gets an inevitable red card? That this happens immediately after we score a well-crafted and perfectly legitimate goal?

No I don't. Not in the slightest. I'm astonished that anyone would think it is.

We'll have to agree to disagree as I'm a bit flabbergasted that you don't!

 

[Sean Thornton]

Immediately after scoring our opening goal, their lad loses his head and flies in with an elbow to get himself sent off. In less than a minute, Brizzle find themselves a goal down and a man down in a game where we hadn't really been in it much.

You don't think that's a little bit fortuitous?

I'd say it was more down to his stupidity than anything.

 

[TJB.]

I'd say it was more down to his stupidity than anything.

Of course it was. It was out of nowhere and completely unnecessary.

The fact it happened at all and gave us a man advantage is, I feel, a bit of luck and good fortune.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Of course it was. It was out of nowhere and completely unnecessary.

The fact it happened at all and gave us a man advantage is, I feel, a bit of luck and good fortune.

But playing devils advocate there are posters saying we didn't handle the ten men very well! (But buy me a Jaipur or in Ricky's case a Babycham and dandelion and burdock and I'll back you up every time )

 

[PokerBlade]

Wouldn't say it's fortunate that we scored the way we did. Our passing around the box had been good if not getting a little too passive at times, and eventually some excellent build up play found the space out wide and was rounded off with a good cross and equally good header. I would say that's our biggest strength at the moment, that we're always capable of getting a goal from somewhere. The only thing we've not had yet is a couple from outside the box.

The sending off is a bit fortunate because he'd been a good player for them and there hadn't been any noticeable reason for him to snap.

I mean, it'd be nice if we were head and shoulders above the opposition and could roll over a team like Bristol, but with the players missing, a reshuffle of the formation and in particular the back four again, I think you have to look at last night's performance as a very positive one. I'd have been disappointed not to get anything from the game, having their players make game changing mistakes is just part of the game that inevitably sets teams apart by the end of the season.

 

[PokerBlade]

Put it this way, when Long dropped his clangers, any team that got something from that individual game could say "Well, that was a bit lucky", but from our perspective we know that those errors were a consistent part of our side that dropped points.

 

[Bartyblade]

We'll have to agree to disagree as I'm a bit flabbergasted that you don't!

How players respond to adversity is part of the game.
Were Scunny fortunate to get a point against us after we 'unluckily' had Basham sent off?

 

[TJB.]

Wouldn't say it's fortunate that we scored the way we did. Our passing around the box had been good if not getting a little too passive at times, and eventually some excellent build up play found the space out wide and was rounded off with a good cross and equally good header. I would say that's our biggest strength at the moment, that we're always capable of getting a goal from somewhere. The only thing we've not had yet is a couple from outside the box.

The sending off is a bit fortunate because he'd been a good player for them and there hadn't been any noticeable reason for him to snap.

I mean, it'd be nice if we were head and shoulders above the opposition and could roll over a team like Bristol, but with the players missing, a reshuffle of the formation and in particular the back four again, I think you have to look at last night's performance as a very positive one. I'd have been disappointed not to get anything from the game, having their players make game changing mistakes is just part of the game that inevitably sets teams apart by the end of the season.

No luck for the goal. It was a great move. What I'm getting at is that for a player to get sent off out of nowhere immediately after we scored is a bit of good fortune, as the lad's actions then make it even harder for Bristol to win the game.

But playing devils advocate there are posters saying we didn't handle the ten men very well!

We could have handled them much better and I think that's where my annoyance came from. There was no urgency in getting the ball forward and it came across as a bit blasé, which then led to Bristol rallying and applying some very good pressure. I was convinced we were going to concede.

3 points gained, anyway. All that matters.

 

[PokerBlade]

No luck for the goal. It was a great move. What I'm getting at is that for a player to get sent off out of nowhere immediately after we scored is a bit of good fortune, as the lad's actions then make it even harder for Bristol to win the game.

It's fortunate in the sense that we can't expect that to happen every game. On the other hand, it was a disastrous action from one of their players. Collections of decisions like that are what makes for the game as a whole. Yes, this one had a bigger impact than many others, but as I said with the Long example, these are the type of errors that teams look back on over the season and think "Those cost us".

 

[GreasyChipBeattie]

Reminds me of how Charlton won the league. Solid and grinding.

Reminds me of how I won my Mrs

 

[Bartyblade]

And, to remember the wisdom of an old Owls manager, how do we know that the sending off didn't motivate the Rovers players into a better performance?
Maybe WE were the unfortunate ones?

 

[The Crab]

Reminds me of how I won my Mrs

Won mine by telling her I was hung like a Horse. She soon found out it was My Little Pony though

 

[1danewhitehouse]

My point about MxCabe was a general one in that as far as he's concerned, luck, of whatever kind, doesn't exist.

The point is though you can't micro analyse everything in football. A player shoots, he intends to score, probably John Fashanu and Bronco Layne apart, it doesn't go in, is he unlucky ? The Team got three points against a side that looked a handful last night and we are "lucky". When we lose a simikar type of game, those people don't say unlucky, we were shit is the mantra.

I'll stick with dog shit and lucky as far as the forum goes if we keep climbing the table, and those that struggle with decent form can carry on posting the same old waiting for the next poor performance.

I’m not sure who the “those” you refer to are. When we’ve played well, I’ve said as much. Gillingham for example, I thought we played well and deserved to win on the balance of play. Last night, not so much but we did win and it keeps the momentum going which is obviously a positive.


I maintain that when the opposition are peppering your goal with long range efforts and balls into the back stick, you need a bit of luck to come out unscathed as the balance of probabilities says they’ll either get a lucky deflection or something will “drop for them” if they do it enough. I’m not saying we were battered last night but they definitely troubled our goal and box more than we did theirs. For me, we rode our luck at times as those scrambles can often go either way. Similarly, I thought we were a tad unlucky at Bolton. If the majority of our games going forward have a similar pattern, I don’t think we’ll be up there challenging as I think we would lose and draw plenty.. I’m hopeful though as I say that we can get a CB back in for Saturday and revert to 352 so we can stamp our authority on the game a lot more than we did last night.


As for McCabe, again, I acknowledge the elements of bad luck that have hindered us but for the man at the top to consistently cite it as an overriding factor is concerning as it shows a lack of leadership and personal responsibility.


Luck, good or bad, can affect a game. A freak deflection, a poor refereeing decision etc. But overall, the best teams will generally be around the top and the worst teams will generally be around the bottom on merit.


I completely get the counter-argument about luck vs poor finishing/ good goalkeeping etc. but it’s not as black and white as Pinchy likes to think. What about every mis-hit shot that deceives a ‘keeper or unwitting block by a defender intending to do something else? There are countless situations in a game where a player takes a course of action hoping that it will work out for them. The same course of action might work in one game and not in another (keepers choosing a side to dive on penalties for instance). If an unusual number of those gambles work in your favour in a particular game over and above what might normally be expected, I think it’s fair to describe it as fortunate.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I’m not sure who the “those” you refer to are. When we’ve played well, I’ve said as much. Gillingham for example, I thought we played well and deserved to win on the balance of play. Last night, not so much but we did win and it keeps the momentum going which is obviously a positive.


I maintain that when the opposition are peppering your goal with long range efforts and balls into the back stick, you need a bit of luck to come out unscathed as the balance of probabilities says they’ll either get a lucky deflection or something will “drop for them” if they do it enough. I’m not saying we were battered last night but they definitely troubled our goal and box more than we did theirs. For me, we rode our luck at times as those scrambles can often go either way. Similarly, I thought we were a tad unlucky at Bolton. If the majority of our games going forward have a similar pattern, I don’t think we’ll be up there challenging as I think we would lose and draw plenty.. I’m hopeful though as I say that we can get a CB back in for Saturday and revert to 352 so we can stamp our authority on the game a lot more than we did last night.


As for McCabe, again, I acknowledge the elements of bad luck that have hindered us but for the man at the top to consistently cite it as an overriding factor is concerning as it shows a lack of leadership and personal responsibility.


Luck, good or bad, can affect a game. A freak deflection, a poor refereeing decision etc. But overall, the best teams will generally be around the top and the worst teams will generally be around the bottom on merit.


I completely get the counter-argument about luck vs poor finishing/ good goalkeeping etc. but it’s not as black and white as Pinchy likes to think. What about every mis-hit shot that deceives a ‘keeper or unwitting block by a defender intending to do something else? There are countless situations in a game where a player takes a course of action hoping that it will work out for them. The same course of action might work in one game and not in another (keepers choosing a side to dive on penalties for instance). If an unusual number of those gambles work in your favour in a particular game over and above what might normally be expected, I think it’s fair to describe it as fortunate.

Those are the persistent doomsayers, not you. Plus those who expect a top class performance every week and can't even be satisfied with three points.


I'm not actually fully agreeing with any one in particular, just my own thoughts but football is what it is. If we start putting results down to luck because of a five/ten second event rather than a 90+ minute game of endeavour and ability id say we would be missing the whole point of the game.

I think you also said we were poor, I don't agree with that either btw and nor did anyone around me. My fear is always that we won't get that second goal cushion as I'm sure many peoples is, but last night we didn't need it. We scored a good goal and even if it had been a goalmouth scramble, as the idea is to get the ball in the net I can't see why it's lucky. Same as good defending prevented Rovers from scoring. That's the idea, don't let a goal in and score goals yourselves.

The Rovers fans on Roy's thread don't seem to think we were lucky either.

 

[blade too long]

Of course it was. It was out of nowhere and completely unnecessary.

The fact it happened at all and gave us a man advantage is, I feel, a bit of luck and good fortune.

sort of balances the idiotic red card and large slice of bad luck at scunny then

 

[sheffielder]

sort of balances the idiotic red card and large slice of bad luck at scunny then

What was bad luck at Scunthorpe?