Wilder grateful for boards support

[Darthblade]

McCabe is not daft enough to do anything behind Wilders back . If we sell anybody it will be with Wilders blessing .

For once I think we have to give both the board and manager some credit .

They ain't ever going to please all of us but that's part of the tapestry of life.

UTB

I will be happy to give the Board some credit if we continue to see Tufty supported financially in acquiring the 4 / 5 decent players he still needs before the Bolton game to give our squad a chance of being competitive this season .........

I'm also not holding my breath ........

UTB & FTP

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I'm generally prepared to cut McCabe a bit more slack than you, but I can't disagree with your suggestion we'd have flogged him. Having said that the trial was after the JTW and so a 'not guilty' would probably have meant we went up. We may still have sold him, but it would have been as a 'championship' striker with a bag full of goals to his name.

He was out of contract that summer anyway so he'd have left for nowt or compo (if we could offer him a deal matching the one he was on- which Wilson said we were struggling to do). I just meant we would have sold him the summer or if not then the January before had he not had a rape trial hanging over him.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

tell me what have we missed
a good penalty taker ,we didnt get 3 penalties or more all last season, so his ratio would be down
and as I said hes at derby and hasnt scored in 2016
how on earth are we missing a non scoring forwartd

it didnt derail our season , results did and the fact we got hardly any penalties
weve been top 2on other occasions since and didnt sell blackman as he wasnt here

I probably shouldn’t even be wasting my time discussing with someone who doesn’t accept we missed Blackman in the second half of that season but here goes.


In the first half of the season he scored 10 goals. 5 of those were penalties and I dare say he won at least a couple of those penalties. Can you tell me of a player who replaced him and went on to score more than 5 goals from open play from January onwards?


Do you think it’s just a coincidence that we stopped getting penalties after he’d gone? Do you not realise that not having a player like Blackman running at defences meant it was less likely we would win penalties or score goals? Do you genuinely believe we weren’t weakened by playing Joanthan Forte instead of Nick Blackman?

The argument about his lack of goals since is a red herring. He plays mainly on the wing and is a playing a division above where we are. In fact, he finished some 30 places higher than we did last season.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

how could mccabe be responsible for having no back up
good god wasnt him missing 3 games that cost us the whole squad was in shock their mate had got sent down , was like someone had died
had he missed the last 3 through injury we would have coped but it knocked the club for 6
we only had Beattie as back up
what twaddle you come out with

I already addressed this in response to a more sensible poster. I’ve acknowledged there was an element of bad luck but also pointed out there is no way Evans would have been here all season if he didn’t have the trial hanging over him anyway so we probably wouldn’t have even been in the automatic promotion race.


Besides, one incident having an effect on one season doesn’t excuse the 5 years of ineptitude that has followed.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

what bollocks are you spouting there

a proper crack
a full season with a squad that had just finished 5th , sold just one player , who wanted away
was given the backing but chose not to use it
wasted 7 months chasing unavailable players

the man was a buffoon

Your constant line about “chose not to use it” is as ridiculous as your pretence we didn’t miss Blackman.


Let’s look at the facts.


A squad that finished 5th minus Doyle, Holt, S. Davies, B. Davies and then Murphy. So not only did he lose his best player. He also lost another 3 first teamers that needed replacing. So, 4 out of our starting 11 were gone from the team that finished 5th. Our best remaining player also spent most of the season injured. That meant we had pretty much no good players left except a young prospect with a couple of games under his belt in Che Adams. Adkins gets slammed for his recruitment yet the only signing he paid a fee for and one of his only 2 permanent signings was our player of the year and top scorer and is now our captain.


He brought in less players than any other club in the division. He inherited a squad ravaged by injury and with a wage bill that had to come down. He got loads of players out either on loan or permanent despite never having control of a retained list. January came round and it was clear we needed additions yet the club didn’t make them. That was not Adkins’ choice however much you pretend otherwise. No manager would vote against strengthening their squad when there is a clear need. It would be like a Turkey voting for Christmas.


He finished 6 points worse off than Clough the previous season.


He definitely wasn’t perfect by any stretch of the imagination and I was as disappointed as anyone that we didn’t mount a credible challenge but to say he had a proper crack at it or was well backed is just fantasy.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

so you want quality players in , that cost in wages , but if we just miss out on a play off they become big mistakes and a millstone round our necks
Say if we blew 2m now and bought for arguments sake Bradley Dack for 2 m and 20 k a week
people would be happy , until we finish 3rd and lose in a play off again
then the next managers inherited that seasons crap

its a vicious circle

Yes. It is if you keep tearing up the blueprint and starting again. If you stick with your manager, let him tweak the squad in each window and don’t sell his best players then it’s more than likely he’ll get you up before too long if both of the following criteria are met


1. The manager is vaguely competent (every manager bar Weir since we’ve been down here fits that bill).

2. You have plenty of resource compared to your rivals (20,000 crowds and bog roll billionaires should see to that).

3. You have a scouting network designed to bring in players that meet the style of football you want to play.


It’s really not that difficult at all. We just make it look like it is.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

didnt turn up for us in either game v Swindon for us

Yeah we obviously don’t miss him either. Who would want wingers that are playing in championship playoff teams when you’re in League 1. They’re obviously not good enough.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

well why did you respond to something else

Blackman scored some penalties in a short spell with us
since leaving us in january 2013 hes scored 18 goals in 3 and a half seasons 8 of them penalties
thats 5 a season

what the fuck have we missed out on
had he scored double that 10 a season might start to look viable ,just

Since Reading came down to the championship, Blackman has scored 22 goals in all competitions. That’s in 2.5 seasons before being sold to Derby where he’s been used from the bench more. That’s 8.8 goals per season in a championship team whilst playing predominantly as a winger.


Please tell me, which one of our current wingers would you fancy to average 8.8 goals a season in the Championship? Coutts? Woolford?

 

[raul]

You do realise you've just wasted 20 minutes of your life 1DW??

 

[blade too long]

Since Reading came down to the championship, Blackman has scored 22 goals in all competitions. That’s in 2.5 seasons before being sold to Derby where he’s been used from the bench more. That’s 8.8 goals per season in a championship team whilst playing predominantly as a winger.


Please tell me, which one of our current wingers would you fancy to average 8.8 goals a season in the Championship? Coutts? Woolford?

I was basing it on league goals only

http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=45922
18 in 3 years with reading and seeing as you side stepped it completely 0 thats 0 in 2016 with derby
according to stats thats 3 years with Reading jan 13 to jan 16
that is 3 years isnt it

as I said 18 in the past 3 and a half seasons or 5 league goals a year
if your polishing the turd look up the facts
we are talking getting out of this league, not adding cup goals , only 3 by the way

 

[blade too long]

Yes. It is if you keep tearing up the blueprint and starting again. If you stick with your manager, let him tweak the squad in each window and don’t sell his best players then it’s more than likely he’ll get you up before too long if both of the following criteria are met


1. The manager is vaguely competent (every manager bar Weir since we’ve been down here fits that bill).

2. You have plenty of resource compared to your rivals (20,000 crowds and bog roll billionaires should see to that).

3. You have a scouting network designed to bring in players that meet the style of football you want to play.


It’s really not that difficult at all. We just make it look like it is.

as ever investors vary

some people with billions might only put in 5 million
then dedicated millionaires like wigan had nearly put half their wealth in
surely its the managers job to set up a scouting network

 

[blade too long]

I


Besides, one incident having an effect on one season doesn’t excuse the 5 years of ineptitude that has followed.

But the financial implications of having taken a punt on paying championship wages in an attempt for a quick return did have massive implications on the following seasons

And no one believed Ched was guilty at the club
and it might be proven he was innocent which really would be galling

 

[BushBlade]

I was basing it on league goals only

http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=45922
18 in 3 years with reading and seeing as you side stepped it completely 0 thats 0 in 2016 with derby
according to stats thats 3 years with Reading jan 13 to jan 16
that is 3 years isnt it

as I said 18 in the past 3 and a half seasons or 5 league goals a year
if your polishing the turd look up the facts
we are talking getting out of this league, not adding cup goals , only 3 by the way

I assume you saw him play? He was integral to our attack and by far our most dangerous player, even when Miller was fit. It wasn't just his goals, it was his all round attacking threat. Surely you could see that?

 

[BushBlade]

But the financial implications of having taken a punt on paying championship wages in an attempt for a quick return did have massive implications on the following seasons

And no one believed Ched was guilty at the club
and it might be proven he was innocent which really would be galling

We didn't even have a choice on taking a punt or not. We couldn't shift the players because they were so overpaid. That was a consequence of giving Blackwell the manager's job.

 

[Rodders]

I assume you saw him play? He was integral to our attack and by far our most dangerous player, even when Miller was fit. It wasn't just his goals, it was his all round attacking threat. Surely you could see that?

Swap Blackman for Forte and the team don't do as well. It's uncanny.

 

[BushBlade]

Swap Blackman for Forte and the team don't do as well. It's uncanny.

I felt sorry for Jon. He really wanted to do well second time around and nothing worked for him. That fucking miss.....

 

[blade too long]

I assume you saw him play? He was integral to our attack and by far our most dangerous player, even when Miller was fit. It wasn't just his goals, it was his all round attacking threat. Surely you could see that?

I saw him play saw all his goals
attacking threat though , those are very rose tinted specs your wearing
surely thats an attackers job
forwards are measured on goals, nothing else
harsh but non scoring forwards like blackman is in 2016 have little value
he got 11 in half a season, most of those penalties
had adams had the benifit of that many penalties we would be asking 3 to 4 m for him now

 

[BushBlade]

I saw him play saw all his goals
attacking threat though , those are very rose tinted specs your wearing
surely thats an attackers job
forwards are measured on goals, nothing else
harsh but non scoring forwards like blackman is in 2016 have little value
he got 11 in half a season, most of those penalties
had adams had the benifit of that many penalties we would be asking 3 to 4 m for him now

If you saw him play regularly you'll remember he played out wide quite a bit.
He was a good player, not good enough for the PL but better than L1 and we sold him just after losing Miller to a long term injury. In no way did that help our promotion campaign. The loss of Miller and Blackman within a month and the failure to replace them with players of an equivalent standard was a key factor in our poor form in the second half of the season.

 

[blade too long]

If you saw him play regularly you'll remember he played out wide quite a bit.
He was a good player, not good enough for the PL but better than L1 and we sold him just after losing Miller to a long term injury. In no way did that help our promotion campaign. The loss of Miller and Blackman within a month and the failure to replace them with players of an equivalent standard was a key factor in our poor form in the second half of the season.

I agree to lose 2 thirds of the front 3 with inadequate replacements was poor management , but to elevate Blackman to something hes proven not be , a prolific scorer, is false

defeats at home to yeovil and Coventry were key,
its pure speculation that either would have got us something from those 2

once again our record v top 6 cost us

 

[BushBlade]

I agree to lose 2 thirds of the front 3 with inadequate replacements was poor management , but to elevate Blackman to something hes proven not be , a prolific scorer, is false

defeats at home to yeovil and Coventry were key,
its pure speculation that either would have got us something from those 2

once again our record v top 6 cost us

No, he's not that prolific but he was a handful. I'd love to have him back.
Thanks for reminding me of the Cov game. I'm depressed now.

 

[Sean Thornton]

The point about Blackman isn't what he did after he'd left but that we didn't replace him.

You can replace Blackman with other names as well.

Couple of points, the £9m wage bill quoted by Barney us the accounts figure but we don't have split between football and non football. WWF's £6m figure and subsequent £1.5m reduction is his own estimate, based on the number of leprechauns to the pound. Ie fantasy to fit an argument.

1DW.
Phipps said the money would be spent on the team. Anyone thinking that meant on transfer fees can't have been watching United that long....He was full of double speak long before that statement.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I was basing it on league goals only

http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=45922
18 in 3 years with reading and seeing as you side stepped it completely 0 thats 0 in 2016 with derby
according to stats thats 3 years with Reading jan 13 to jan 16
that is 3 years isnt it

as I said 18 in the past 3 and a half seasons or 5 league goals a year
if your polishing the turd look up the facts
we are talking getting out of this league, not adding cup goals , only 3 by the way

Please tell me which fact I got wrong.



He scored the number of goals I said during the 2.5 year period when he was a championship player with Reading.



He didn’t score as a bit part player in the PL in a relegated team.



He didn’t score when he played predominantly from the bench as a new arrival at playoff losers Derby.



But during the 2.5 seasons in between he scored the number of goals I said he did.



More than enough evidence that he was more than good enough to play for us in a league 1 promotion bid and was missed.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

as ever investors vary

some people with billions might only put in 5 million
then dedicated millionaires like wigan had nearly put half their wealth in
surely its the managers job to set up a scouting network

Manager’s job to set up a scouting network? That varies from club to club and depends on how they are set up. However, with increasing frequency, due to the shortened lifespan of managerial reigns, more clubs are shifting to a set up where player recruitment and scouting is independent of the manager. They then appoint head coaches to manage the players given to them in the manner the club has decided it wants to play it’s football. If you are going to have your managers decide on scouting structure, playing style, recruitment profile etc. then you need to give them a damn site longer than we give ours. I can’t believe you’re still not getting this after having it spoon fed to you for so long.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I saw him play saw all his goals
attacking threat though , those are very rose tinted specs your wearing
surely thats an attackers job
forwards are measured on goals, nothing else
harsh but non scoring forwards like blackman is in 2016 have little value
he got 11 in half a season, most of those penalties
had adams had the benifit of that many penalties we would be asking 3 to 4 m for him now

BushBlade don’t you just love arguing the toss with someone who thinks 45% is “most of” his goals?


Also, it’s amazing that Emile Heskey made a PL career and was an England regular if goals are all that matter. It's also amazing that Keith Edwards wasn't an England regular.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I agree to lose 2 thirds of the front 3 with inadequate replacements was poor management , but to elevate Blackman to something hes proven not be , a prolific scorer, is false

defeats at home to yeovil and Coventry were key,
its pure speculation that either would have got us something from those 2

once again our record v top 6 cost us

We got back to the top after those games though by winning at Bournemouth.

Only taking 5 points from 5 games against MK, Stevenage, Tranmere, Carlisle, Walsall and Crawley was, in my opinion the most costly period and led to DWs sacking.

As for our record v the top 6, out of 10 games we took 16 points winning 4 and losing only 2. I don’t think that’s what cost us at all.

PS. Who ever said Blackman was a prolific scorer?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

The point about Blackman isn't what he did after he'd left but that we didn't replace him.

You can replace Blackman with other names as well.

Couple of points, the £9m wage bill quoted by Barney us the accounts figure but we don't have split between football and non football. WWF's £6m figure and subsequent £1.5m reduction is his own estimate, based on the number of leprechauns to the pound. Ie fantasy to fit an argument.

1DW.
Phipps said the money would be spent on the team. Anyone thinking that meant on transfer fees can't have been watching United that long....He was full of double speak long before that statement.

But his words were clearly designed to be interpreted that the money would be invested on incoming players be that wages, signing on fees, transfer fees etc. Given that we only brought in Hammond on loan amongst a glut of outgoings (Alcock, Higdon, Khan, Dimaio etc.) and then Baptiste after Colllins’ departure, what he indicated would happen didn’t happen.


Not terribly surprising to anyone with experience of following United as you say but in my opinion it’s entirely worthy of some criticism and shouldn't be swept under the carpet simply because we've come to expect it.

 

[Sean Thornton]

But his words were clearly designed to be interpreted that the money would be invested on incoming players be that wages, signing on fees, transfer fees etc. Given that we only brought in Hammond on loan amongst a glut of outgoings (Alcock, Higdon, Khan, Dimaio etc.) and then Baptiste after Colllins’ departure, what he indicated would happen didn’t happen.


Not terribly surprising to anyone with experience of following United as you say but in my opinion it’s entirely worthy of some criticism and shouldn't be swept under the carpet simply because we've come to expect it.

I pointed out at the time - as did others - what it was likely to mean. Same as when he talked about "reinvestment" . Hammond and Sammons wages will have been a lot more than the saving on outgoings you mention pkus the squad was bloated anyway. The increased losses - according to McCabe - are only likely to be down to wages so even though he spoke with forked tongue, I'd imagine it did all go on wages. That's not sweeping anything under the carpet but it's a fallacy as some claim, that he said it would go on fees. People remember what suits rather than the actual words spoken.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I pointed out at the time - as did others - what it was likely to mean. Same as when he talked about "reinvestment" . Hammond and Sammons wages will have been a lot more than the saving on outgoings you mention pkus the squad was bloated anyway. The increased losses - according to McCabe - are only likely to be down to wages so even though he spoke with forked tongue, I'd imagine it did all go on wages. That's not sweeping anything under the carpet but it's a fallacy as some claim, that he said it would go on fees. People remember what suits rather than the actual words spoken.

I agree with you that it was always likely but the way it was worded was clearly intended to suggest that that we didn't need the sale to finance what we already had under contract and that the proceeds would be available to the manager to strengthen the squad. Not necessarily on transfer fees, wages too. But that didn't happen. It went on wages we were already contracted to pay suggesting that

a) it had already been spent and we did indeed need the sale or b
b) the owners had committed to paying more for the year than they ended up doing because Murphy's fee softened the hit on them.

 

[blade too long]

PS. Who ever said Blackman was a prolific scorer?

certainly not me

thing is if your a forward, its sort of supposedly part of the job description

 

[Sean Thornton]

I agree with you that it was always likely but the way it was worded was clearly intended to suggest that that we didn't need the sale to finance what we already had under contract and that the proceeds would be available to the manager to strengthen the squad. Not necessarily on transfer fees, wages too. But that didn't happen. It went on wages we were already contracted to pay suggesting that

a) it had already been spent and we did indeed need the sale or b
b) the owners had committed to paying more for the year than they ended up doing because Murphy's fee softened the hit on them.

Of course it was, which shows how they see the fan base most of the time.

It simply ended up meaning that they ended up putting less in and ultimately suffering yet another season in L1.