SUFC vs. Manchester United B

[Alfreton14Blade]

The whole thing stinks..Moving the goalposts to get their own way again,and dangling a bit of small change.
Why they are allowed to stockpile all these players in the first place,it doesn't seem right to me.These players would and should be playing at other clubs up and down the pyramid..Why do Chelsea need 82 players on their books?..it's a joke,and worrying that Clubs are'nt telling them to do one,and allowing them to what they like.

And they never use them! They're just there as a production line to be sold on, not as a source of "raw material" for the first team.

Which is the main reason why personally I'm so encouraged by and supportive of Mccabe's comments about our own academy and his desire for it to be productive.

I suppose the argument of the top premier sides is that they'd use their academy players more if they were tested more by having B sides involved in competitive games. But, like you say, there are alternatives like the loan system (even in its modified guise), which seems to have served a club like Tottenham just fine and is far better for other, smaller clubs who benefit from loans.

The top prem clubs want it all, and they want it now, whatever the consequences. Seems their true desire is a US system (without the inconvenient levelling tendencies of the draft) whereby a fixed number of vastly wealthy clubs play an enclosed league system in perpetuity, with the rest existing as "farm" clubs merely serving the requirements of the "major league" premier sides.

 

[Dnblade]

That's a point, actually. Why are clubs with a shitload of cash allowed to have as big a squad as they like? Or why are clubs like ourselves allowed to accumulate 40+ professionals on the books? Should there be a limit or should everyone be allowed as many players as they wish?

There doesn't seem to be a limit for clubs like Chelsea with their massive turnover,but it just seems unethical,greedy and unfair..They won't be happy until they've squeezed the life out of the lower league teams it seems to me.

 

[Dnblade]

And they never use them! They're just there as a production line to be sold on, not as a source of "raw material" for the first team.

Which is the main reason why personally I'm so encouraged by and supportive of Mccabe's comments about our own academy and his desire for it to be productive.

I suppose the argument of the top premier sides is that they'd use their academy players more if they were tested more by having B sides involved in competitive games. But, like you say, there are alternatives like the loan system (even in its modified guise), which seems to have served a club like Tottenham just fine and is far better for other, smaller clubs who benefit from loans.

The top prem clubs want it all, and they want it now, whatever the consequences. Seems their true desire is a US system (without the inconvenient levelling tendencies of the draft) whereby a fixed number of vastly wealthy clubs play an enclosed league system in perpetuity, with the rest existing as "farm" clubs merely serving the requirements of the "major league" premier sides.

A breakaway Football League would be an idea,although unlikely..I'd love the Football League clubs along with the also rans in the Prem to cut them adrift..They'd be fucked without the other 86 teams.

 

[Alfreton14Blade]

A breakaway Football League would be an idea,although unlikely..I'd love the Football League clubs along with the also rans in the Prem to cut them adrift..They'd be fucked without the other 86 teams.

It'd be ideal. Sadly, most football league clubs are in thrall to their premier league "betters" though, as witnessed in the voting for the new incarnation of the JPT.

You can imagine already the arguments that are about to be put forward for their longer-term plans for the expanded 20-team leagues:

- Change is good
- You're a dinosaur if you oppose change

(i.e. all change is good, whatever its form; and tradition is necessarily really bad)

 

[Dnblade]

It'd be ideal. Sadly, most football league clubs are in thrall to their premier league "betters" though (as witnessed in the voting for the new incarnation of the JPT) and just let them do what they want.

Everyone should play as many kids and fringe players as possible and get knocked out in the first round,leaving them to play each other and makes it a complete waste of time.

 

[Bartleby]

don't like the idea at all, seems a bit of an insult to the journeymen of the lower leagues.

 

[Mousey]

Is the competition mandatory? I always thought you had to apply to play in a cup competition. If so, is there the option not to enter the competition as a whole?

Also, what rules are in place that say the games have to be held at the home ground of the host club? The game could be held at the academy if it fits all the criteria set for the competition.

 

[TJB.]

So far we've got Oxford, Chesterfield and Carlisle who've admitted to voting for B-Teams. You can read Carlisle's viewpoint in the link.

They're basically saying 'Well it's only one season, then we'll have another look at it', which is just such deliberately naive bullshit.

Even though 5,000 have already signed a petition against it, and it's quite likely that boycotts will take place, you just know no matter how much uproar there is it'll be a bunch of wankers sat round a table in 12 months going '...well, I think that worked rather well, don't you?'

http://www.carlisleunited.co.uk/new...eme-ahead-of-the-201617-campaign-3141302.aspx

 

[Revolution]

Is the competition mandatory? I always thought you had to apply to play in a cup competition. If so, is there the option not to enter the competition as a whole?

The Full Members Cup/Zenith Cup etc - the same competition for the top 2 leagues - was never compulsory. Nor was the league cup in the 1960's. My guess is they make you enter now.

Man Utd got out of the FA Cup in 1999-2000 to play in that stupid world club thing, but that's Man Utd.

I would be keen for United to boycott.

 

[TJB.]

Jesus, Chesterfield's response is so fucking spineless it's unreal.

'Welllllll we WERE against it, but it looked like everyone wanted it, and they're putting more money in, so we went with it'

This quote makes my piss boil...

'“The Premier League supports the EFL massively and I think the feeling was that we should go with their suggestion for one season. There is some additional prize money from the Premiership, too'

Ooooh thank you, Premier League gods. Fankoo soooo much for the extra monies.

Chris Turner must still have the taste of faeces on his tongue. What a prick.

http://www.chesterfield-fc.co.uk/ne...sition-to-format-change-revealed-3141089.aspx

 

[Bladesman]

Jesus, Chesterfield's response is so fucking spineless it's unreal.

'Welllllll we WERE against it, but it looked like everyone wanted it, and they're putting more money in, so we went with it'

This quote makes my piss boil...

'“The Premier League supports the EFL massively and I think the feeling was that we should go with their suggestion for one season. There is some additional prize money from the Premiership, too'

Ooooh thank you, Premier League gods. Fankoo soooo much for the extra monies.

Chris Turner must still have the taste of faeces on his tongue. What a prick.

http://www.chesterfield-fc.co.uk/ne...sition-to-format-change-revealed-3141089.aspx

Actually I am wrong, the prize money on offer is now more than what you get for winning the League Cup and roughly the same as what you get for winning the FA cup. That probably explains why Chesterfield are so desperate for the cash on offer.

Although the Premier League should and could have put a lot more money in.

 

[SRBlade]

One idea could be to have these youngsters playing regular football at football league level, instead of playing for Prem U21s while clubs spend £40m on some no mark from abroad.

Just an arse end forwards decision which detracts totally from the bigger issues the FA should be dealing with.

 

[Chezzy Blades]

I make effort and arrangement to attend every United game, whether it be Friendly, JPT, League One or anything else.

For me, and I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread, I feel watching United play against Stoke City B/U21's for example is a step too far and I'd have to give serious consideration on whether I'd go. The way I feel at present if it was played tomorrow I wouldn't be attending.

In my opinion this really is a dark day for the future of lower league English football, not just for us but for all the clubs in L1, L2 and beyond.

 

[Jehovah]

I would rather clone myself and then bum myself than watch us play a premier B team.

 

[TJB.]

An update on the petition. The bloke who started it ('Nathan') has received the following email from The Football League:

***********************************************************
"Nathan

Firstly, thank-you for your emails.

I understand you do not agree with the decision to welcome 16 category 1 academy and under 21 sides into the competition. That is absolutely your right.

However, please do be assured that the decisions taken are always done with the best interests of our clubs in mind. The reality of the situation is that the competition is very much in need of a refresh. Attendances have been in decline and it has been quite challenging to get TV audiences fully engaged for a variety of reasons. These are two areas pivotal to the success of any competition.

By introducing a new format we hope it will start to address these concerns as well as also helping to create more and better home grown players, which is a key objective in making the change.

It is worth noting that the new format for 2016/17 is a trial for one season only and a full review will take place after the final in April 2017.

This issue aside, I am interested in how you feel supporters could actively contribute on an ongoing basis. I am keen to develop some mechanisms so we can get valued feedback and insight.

Best wishes

Mark"

**********************************************************

Three things:

1) Attendances are not going to improve by sticking PL B-teams in; they're going to decline further. The strength of the opposition thus far has proved that.
2) You might get the odd PL fan curious to see any gems their U21/B team might have coming through, but if they're expecting a sudden wave of new viewers to the JPT (or whatever it's going to be renamed as), they're in for a shock. Nobody watches it because it's just not that alluring.
3) You create more and better home grown players by investing in development instead of shopping abroad for the top names because you're shit scared of dropping out of the money league. You also drill it into the little buggers that going out on loan to lower league clubs is good for their careers and that being a big name in a youth team ultimately means nob all.

 

[Bladesway]

Or something to that effect.

What a load of old shit. As if I didn't resent this competition enough.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...demy-teams-english-football-league-trophy-efl

Theres a solution to this. Get out the fucking third division then none of this shit actually matters to us. Football is and has been a dead duck outside the Premiership wankfest for many years.

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

An update on the petition. The bloke who started it ('Nathan') has received the following email from The Football League:

***********************************************************
"Nathan

Firstly, thank-you for your emails.

I understand you do not agree with the decision to welcome 16 category 1 academy and under 21 sides into the competition. That is absolutely your right.

However, please do be assured that the decisions taken are always done with the best interests of our clubs in mind. The reality of the situation is that the competition is very much in need of a refresh. Attendances have been in decline and it has been quite challenging to get TV audiences fully engaged for a variety of reasons. These are two areas pivotal to the success of any competition.

By introducing a new format we hope it will start to address these concerns as well as also helping to create more and better home grown players, which is a key objective in making the change.

It is worth noting that the new format for 2016/17 is a trial for one season only and a full review will take place after the final in April 2017.

This issue aside, I am interested in how you feel supporters could actively contribute on an ongoing basis. I am keen to develop some mechanisms so we can get valued feedback and insight.

Best wishes

Mark"

**********************************************************

Three things:

1) Attendances are not going to improve by sticking PL B-teams in; they're going to decline further. The strength of the opposition thus far has proved that.
2) You might get the odd PL fan curious to see any gems their U21/B team might have coming through, but if they're expecting a sudden wave of new viewers to the JPT (or whatever it's going to be renamed as), they're in for a shock. Nobody watches it because it's just not that alluring.
3) You create more and better home grown players by investing in development instead of shopping abroad for the top names because you're shit scared of dropping out of the money league. You also drill it into the little buggers that going out on loan to lower league clubs is good for their careers and that being a big name in a youth team ultimately means nob all.

And ...

"It is worth noting that the new format for 2016/17 is a trial for one season only and a full review will take place after the final in April 2017."

In time for the process to occur permanently from Season 2017-18, no doubt!

 

[larkymasher]

Not sure where the 16 CAT1 academies are coming from.

In the Premier League Bournmouth, Burnley are CAT3 with Hull, Palace and Watford Cat2.

The whole idea stinks and shows no L1 OR L2 professional players or clubs one ounce of respect. If we play our Under21s team then i can see a benefit to be honest in playing competitive games.

As i have mentioned before, this is also an opportunity for the Premier League clubs to come sniffing at our younger players and pinch them for nowt !!!

I agree being in this situation is of the clubs own making but we are where we are and needs to be dealt with.

 

[BladeFisher]

Actually I am wrong, the prize money on offer is now more than what you get for winning the League Cup and roughly the same as what you get for winning the FA cup. That probably explains why Chesterfield are so desperate for the cash on offer.

Although the Premier League should and could have put a lot more money in.

Yeah and if it's won by Chelsea B then guess what a PL side gets even more fucking money!

Pathetic.

I tell you what, why don't Man U, Man C, Arsenal and Chelsea fuck off and go and play in a World league? They can play every week the likes of Barcelona, Bayern M, Juventus, Inter Milan, some South American sides, some token black side from Africa probably Accra Kickers FC and again in China 'Beijing Big Dongs' and just get on with it. Make as much bloody money as they like sponsored by who cares a damn and leave the rest of us to get back to proper football.

And when Branson proves his intergalactic space shuttle blast the fuckers off into outer space so we can get proper football back without all these greedy swines trouts in the trough.

I wouldn't mind but I don't think the standard of football certainly by English teams (as opposed to PL teams full of world stars) has got so much better that frankly it is value for money anymore. It is just a money drug.

 

[The Crab]

Put the U18s out
Fuck em

I'd go further, put some of us out, lets really rip the piss out of this fucking pointless competition

 

[The Crab]

Oh I totally agree, the point of my post was to find out how we voted because I think the fans should be consulted on something like this. It is the thin end of the wedge which will see the Football League shrink in my view not grow probably into Regional leagues and PL reserve sides playing, as in this experiment. It is totally horrid and the FL should be ashamed of themselves.

What might be a good idea is to have another European competition for the the third and fourth tier of national leagues so the winners of the FLT can go and play in it. It would then give a bit more meaning to the competition. The European Provincial Cup or something. How many would turn up for Swindon Town v Hansa Rostock I don't know but it would make the lower leagues more interesting I think and particularly the FLT.

That idea reminds me of the Anglo-Italian Cup from a few years ago. I'm not sure how much interest it would generate if I'm honest, the quality and support in many of the European Leagues drops off pretty quickly. For example the Portuguese League drops off even quicker than the Scottish Premiership.

 

[The Crab]

Pull out, in protest

I have, Ms Crab was annoyed and confused at my reasoning.

 

[The Crab]

I would rather clone myself and then bum myself than watch us play a premier B team.

ITVbe have just called, they'd like to buy your idea.

 

[BladeFisher]

That idea reminds me of the Anglo-Italian Cup from a few years ago. I'm not sure how much interest it would generate if I'm honest, the quality and support in many of the European Leagues drops off pretty quickly. For example the Portuguese League drops off even quicker than the Scottish Premiership.

Well I appreciate in the early stages it will be a bit like having a 'twinning ceremony' but at least it would blood, perhaps that's the wrong word, lesser players into European football.

If I played for Bury and we drew Hansa Kiel, I reckon that would be a petty good away trip. More exciting than AFC Wimbledon on a dark Tuesday night in early February. And if the winners got a bye into the Europa League, well why not?

 

[The Crab]

Well I appreciate in the early stages it will be a bit like having a 'twinning ceremony' but at least it would blood, perhaps that's the wrong word, lesser players into European football.

If I played for Bury and we drew Hansa Kiel, I reckon that would be a petty good away trip. More exciting than AFC Wimbledon on a dark Tuesday night in early February. And if the winners got a bye into the Europa League, well why not?

Olhanense or Portimonenese would do me, they're shite too so we'd have a squeak at beating them. I'm in

 

[Peakblades]

It's funny though - this deep, sorrowful concern expressed just a week or two back for lower division clubs having to play too many games & for fans of those clubs inconveniently having to travel away for night games... & then they go and expand this thoroughly unloved competition, forcing sides into the additional commitment of having to play a 3-game midweek group stage...

Sincerity? What sincerity...

It's a joke, all about helping the premiership academies and stopping them loaning players to L1 and L2... too many fixtures and too little money to lower leagues, and will put even more pressure on smaller clubs to fold..

 

[WorkingtonBlade]

I wonder how SUFC voted, can we find out before 'protesting' too much? Of course if we voted for it, would make Wilder's view interesting.

Still no response to my e-mail. I'd imagine they're currently in a extraordinary late night board meeting, examining its every detail and discussing what it means for them, the club and the future of the universe.

Seriously though, while other clubs have made public their vote, for me the fact that United will not say how they voted means two things:

1. They voted in support of the changes
2. At the time they did that they knew full well that the vast majority of United fans would be against it, so they decided the appropriate action was to support it, and keep quiet about it.

Just like the Football League, they're hoping that most people don't notice, and that those who do will forget about it if they say as little as possible.

I wonder whether they'll be proved right.

 

[TJB.]

"The first 16 clubs with Category One Academies that have been invited to take part in the EFL Trophy 2016/17 are Arsenal, Chelsea, Everton, Leicester City, Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United, Middlesbrough, Newcastle United, Southampton, Stoke City, Sunderland, Swansea City, Tottenham Hotspur, West Bromwich Albion and West Ham United."

Can you imagine the indignity of having to face Wet Sham's children at their shiny new taxpayer-funded ground? Christ.

Full info here, not that I can be arsed to read it all.

http://www.sufc.co.uk/news/article/2016-17/sheffield-untied-efl-trophy-3171065.aspx

 

[bladesmanluke]

BOYCOTT

 

[Ecco1889]

It's a no from me