Negative Nigel - Really? Some Evidence

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alcoblade said:
Not as I recall fella. There were plenty of times I was beckoning players forward. I was amazed how deep so many players sat during so many attacks.

UTB
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And what happened when we got players forward in numbers like against Scunthorpe
We hammer them.
 

Caseh said:
<snip> I think its mostly that our tempo is just too slow. Passing it around slowly is OK sometimes, but only if you're going to have sudden changes of tempo with running and passing alike. I think a big problem is not having a settled back 4 though, the more offensive players are always going to be more worried about losing the ball when they don't have confidence in the players behind them.
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Agree with this.

There are real issues but for me negativity isn't one of them.

Clough has mentioned tempo, decision making, and finishing a number of times in his interviews.
 
I still dont get what some blades expect from Nigel , , the negative tag , to me is absolutely ridiculous

If we are averaging 11 shots a game that prolific
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/31893202
liverpool v man utd recently 2 sides worth half a billion minimum
playing their peers
Liverpool 7 shots man utd 6

so thats ultra negative Brendan and huber negative LVG then is it
 
I think the battle over whether we should label Nigel or his tactics as negative is disguising the real issues. I see two major problems:

We are horribly wasteful in the final third. A goalscoring opportunity becomes a miss, and from a position to create a goalscoring opportunity we create a corner or have a mis-hit cross. This isn't perceived as problematic by the players (I dare say the staff may not see it this way) because they know we will have more of the ball and these opportunities will come around again, several times, in the match. What we then find is by full time we've had two dozen situations where the 'final ball', be it the pass or cross or the shot itself, isn't good enough and we have a grand total of zero goals to show for those opportunities. Scunthorpe aside, we tend to get one right per home game. In contrast, the opposition (especially when they come to BDTBL) know their chances will be few, maybe even only one. So from their handful of good situations they make the most out of it and score once or twice, which is often enough to avoid defeat because we are so wasteful.

The other problem I see addresses the negativity argument more directly. The common perceptions on this thread are that we pass it sideways and backwards (or 'recycle possession' to use modern parlance) and the opposition immediately drop all eleven behind the ball when we get it. These don't go well together for the possession team. Or at least they don't when the possession team is a third division team. I don't agree that it's relative. Ask yourself if the best defenders in the world can tackle and block better than third division defenders to the same degree that Ronaldo and Messi can dribble, pass and shoot better than Murphy and Baxter. Keeping possession and attempting to break teams down as if we are Real Madrid playing against Espanyol is downright stupid. My real point is this: we are renowned for our ability to pin a team in their own box in the last ten minutes if we are losing, or drawing against weaker opposition, when they drop off to defend with eleven behind the ball. Hang on a minute, aren't they doing that for the preceding 80 minutes? So why can't we put teams under pressure and make them crack before the last ten minutes? Because we knock it sideways and backwards instead of forwards. We only look to play forwards with purpose when we're desperate.

So the answers are fairly simple to my mind. Forget setting up based on the opposition, the players at this level aren't worthy. Spend the week working on improving that 'final ball' and get the ball forward with purpose from the beginning. Worst case scenario is we lose 2-1. Doesn't seem like we've much to lose there.

The only stat that counts is goals. If 90 minutes have been played and the stats read possession 60-40, shots 25-4 and goals 1-2, we've lost the game.
 
Punk Blade said:
I think the battle over whether we should label Nigel or his tactics as negative is disguising the real issues. I see two major problems:

We are horribly wasteful in the final third. A goalscoring opportunity becomes a miss, and from a position to create a goalscoring opportunity we create a corner or have a mis-hit cross. This isn't perceived as problematic by the players (I dare say the staff may not see it this way) because they know we will have more of the ball and these opportunities will come around again, several times, in the match. What we then find is by full time we've had two dozen situations where the 'final ball', be it the pass or cross or the shot itself, isn't good enough and we have a grand total of zero goals to show for those opportunities. Scunthorpe aside, we tend to get one right per home game. In contrast, the opposition (especially when they come to BDTBL) know their chances will be few, maybe even only one. So from their handful of good situations they make the most out of it and score once or twice, which is often enough to avoid defeat because we are so wasteful.

The other problem I see addresses the negativity argument more directly. The common perceptions on this thread are that we pass it sideways and backwards (or 'recycle possession' to use modern parlance) and the opposition immediately drop all eleven behind the ball when we get it. These don't go well together for the possession team. Or at least they don't when the possession team is a third division team. I don't agree that it's relative. Ask yourself if the best defenders in the world can tackle and block better than third division defenders to the same degree that Ronaldo and Messi can dribble, pass and shoot better than Murphy and Baxter. Keeping possession and attempting to break teams down as if we are Real Madrid playing against Espanyol is downright stupid. My real point is this: we are renowned for our ability to pin a team in their own box in the last ten minutes if we are losing, or drawing against weaker opposition, when they drop off to defend with eleven behind the ball. Hang on a minute, aren't they doing that for the preceding 80 minutes? So why can't we put teams under pressure and make them crack before the last ten minutes? Because we knock it sideways and backwards instead of forwards. We only look to play forwards with purpose when we're desperate.

So the answers are fairly simple to my mind. Forget setting up based on the opposition, the players at this level aren't worthy. Spend the week working on improving that 'final ball' and get the ball forward with purpose from the beginning. Worst case scenario is we lose 2-1. Doesn't seem like we've much to lose there.

The only stat that counts is goals. If 90 minutes have been played and the stats read possession 60-40, shots 25-4 and goals 1-2, we've lost the game.
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All based in the simple fact this sides only getting near being together for 10 weeks , we only acquired 4 of it in january , andits still building up an understanding , hopefully clicking when it matters
 
blade too long said:
All based in the simple fact this sides only getting near being together for 10 weeks , we only acquired 4 of it in january , andits still building up an understanding , hopefully clicking when it matters
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Didn't it matter about 10 games ago when you were arguing we could well win every one?

It matters right now, it isn't clicking, and there's no sign of it clicking.

UTB
 
could , didnt say would , sometimes teams click straight away , but thats normally when you spend 200m

no signs of it clicking , are we not 5th after being outside the play offs at xmas ,
honestly the panic sets in something evil with some
 
Punk Blade said:
I think the battle over whether we should label Nigel or his tactics as negative is disguising the real issues. I see two major problems:

We are horribly wasteful in the final third. A goalscoring opportunity becomes a miss, and from a position to create a goalscoring opportunity we create a corner or have a mis-hit cross. This isn't perceived as problematic by the players (I dare say the staff may not see it this way) because they know we will have more of the ball and these opportunities will come around again, several times, in the match. What we then find is by full time we've had two dozen situations where the 'final ball', be it the pass or cross or the shot itself, isn't good enough and we have a grand total of zero goals to show for those opportunities. Scunthorpe aside, we tend to get one right per home game. In contrast, the opposition (especially when they come to BDTBL) know their chances will be few, maybe even only one. So from their handful of good situations they make the most out of it and score once or twice, which is often enough to avoid defeat because we are so wasteful.

The other problem I see addresses the negativity argument more directly. The common perceptions on this thread are that we pass it sideways and backwards (or 'recycle possession' to use modern parlance) and the opposition immediately drop all eleven behind the ball when we get it. These don't go well together for the possession team. Or at least they don't when the possession team is a third division team. I don't agree that it's relative. Ask yourself if the best defenders in the world can tackle and block better than third division defenders to the same degree that Ronaldo and Messi can dribble, pass and shoot better than Murphy and Baxter. Keeping possession and attempting to break teams down as if we are Real Madrid playing against Espanyol is downright stupid. My real point is this: we are renowned for our ability to pin a team in their own box in the last ten minutes if we are losing, or drawing against weaker opposition, when they drop off to defend with eleven behind the ball. Hang on a minute, aren't they doing that for the preceding 80 minutes? So why can't we put teams under pressure and make them crack before the last ten minutes? Because we knock it sideways and backwards instead of forwards. We only look to play forwards with purpose when we're desperate.

So the answers are fairly simple to my mind. Forget setting up based on the opposition, the players at this level aren't worthy. Spend the week working on improving that 'final ball' and get the ball forward with purpose from the beginning. Worst case scenario is we lose 2-1. Doesn't seem like we've much to lose there.

The only stat that counts is goals. If 90 minutes have been played and the stats read possession 60-40, shots 25-4 and goals 1-2, we've lost the game.
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There's plenty in here I agree with (and plenty I'd disagree with) but if I was going to be facetious I'd sum it up as: The set up that's a waste of time gives us too many chances? :confused:

Being more constructive I think finishing is an issue. Clough has mentioned a couple of times getting the ball under the bar - sounded bizarre at the time but... Coutts's shot in stoppage time (and a few others).

And I strongly disagree that the only stat that count is goals. That's just simplistic: you can create a hatful of chances, not finish them off and lose, or draw 0-0, or you can scrape a jammy 1-0 with a dodgy penalty. One bodes well for long term prospects, the other doesn't.
 
blade too long said:
could , didnt say would , sometimes teams click straight away , but thats normally when you spend 200m

no signs of it clicking , are we not 5th after being outside the play offs at xmas ,
honestly the panic sets in something evil with some
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bloody hell, the Dingles kept that quiet didn't they??? Just ,,,,,,goes to,,,,,,show
 
As It Stood Table
Last updated 27 Jan 2015
PosTeamPlayedGDPoints

1Swindon 26 27 54
2Bristol City 25 26 54
3MK Dons 26 29 52
4Preston 2614 47
5Chesterfield 26 5 38
6Rochdale 25 12 37
7Fleetwood 27 1 37

8Bradford 25 3 36
9Sheff Utd 24 2 36

how do some think we are going backwards when this was 8 weeks ago

cold hard fact is in the last 8 weeks weve obviously played better than at least 4
weve overtaken ,,,,, but keep slagging us off relentlessly , Im sure it makes you feel better
 
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blade too long said:
could , didnt say would , sometimes teams click straight away , but thats normally when you spend 200m

no signs of it clicking , are we not 5th after being outside the play offs at xmas ,
honestly the panic sets in something evil with some
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I'n not panicking. I'm saying we look like a poor side and we are not getting better. It's a cold hard view on where we are at.

Clearly we could have been run ragged by Worksop in the first round of the cup and you'd still argue there were positive signs. There's only one of the two of us who is completey irrational, and it's not the one actually witnessing the football.

UTB
 
blade too long said:
As It Stood Table
Last updated 27 Jan 2015
PosTeamPlayedGDPoints

1Swindon262754
2Bristol City252654
3MK Dons262952
4Preston261447
5Chesterfield26538
6Rochdale251237
7Fleetwood27137

8Bradford25336
9Sheff Utd24236

how do some think we are going backwards when this was 8 weeks ago
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The team that finished last season would wipe the floor with this one. Progress is dependant on where you set your markers.

Sat during the worst spell in our history, it's an interesting time to be arguing about progress, but again it's relative. :)

UTB
 
alcoblade said:
The team that finished last season would wipe the floor with this one. Progress is dependant on where you set your markers.

Sat during the worst spell in our history, it's an interesting time to be arguing about progress, but again it's relative. :)

UTB
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pure conjecture , in fact it faded in some games too
 
oldblade said:
That is not what happened against Crewe. There was plenty of support around our shooting players.
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Maybe there was support, but then Sheffield United players making wrong decisions is nothing unusual.
Our goals scored tally suggests our shots aren't good enough and our good chances created per game isn't high enough.
 
Swindon Town2–1Sheffield UnitedCounty Ground
1 April 2014Sheffield United0–0BrentfordBramall Lane
5 April 2014Sheffield United1–1Leyton OrientBramall Lane
8 April 2014Sheffield United1–0Rotherham UnitedBramall Lane
18 April 2014Sheffield United1–0StevenageBramall Lane
21 April 2014Tranmere Rovers0–0Sheffield UnitedPrenton Park
25 April 2014Port Vale1–2Sheffield UnitedVale Park
29 April 2014Oldham Athletic1–1Sheffield United

If you look at last seasons April results they arent actually stunning are they , just 2 1-0 wins at home and a win at port vale
13 pts from 8 scoring only 7
are we really worse than that now
 
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A
JJBlade said:
Maybe there was support, but then Sheffield United players making wrong decisions is nothing unusual.
Our goals scored tally suggests our shots aren't good enough and our good chances created per game isn't high enough.
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Agree with some of that. But our missed shots against Crewe ad nothing to do with negativity.
 
blade too long said:
Swindon Town2–1Sheffield UnitedCounty Ground
1 April 2014Sheffield United0–0BrentfordBramall Lane
5 April 2014Sheffield United1–1Leyton OrientBramall Lane
8 April 2014Sheffield United1–0Rotherham UnitedBramall Lane
18 April 2014Sheffield United1–0StevenageBramall Lane
21 April 2014Tranmere Rovers0–0Sheffield UnitedPrenton Park
25 April 2014Port Vale1–2Sheffield UnitedVale Park
29 April 2014Oldham Athletic1–1Sheffield United

If you look at last seasons April results they arent actually stunning are they , just 2 1-0 wins at home and a win at port vale
13 pts from 8
are we really worse than that now
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Again, depends or your markets. Last years post Christmas team was much stronger than this years.

UTB
 
Ill state it again we are 5th now with a gap to 7th and were 9 th as we entered February , so it cant all have been as bad as some make out
 
metalblade said:
You seem to be forgetting the dreadfull start under Weir last season blade too long take that out of the equation and we are a fair bit worse than last term
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What's more, I enjoyed watching us the 2nd half of last season.

The current scenario smacks of Blackwell taking over from the useless Robson. It was really entertaining when they had no choice but to go for it, but dull as ditch water when they'd had a pre season to stamp their true self onto the team.

Let's hope Clough can go one better in the play-off's, should we make it.

UTB
 
metalblade said:
You seem to be forgetting the dreadfull start under Weir last season blade too long take that out of the equation and we are a fair bit worse than last term
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we were never 5th though , we never were last season ................points are only part of the story , we got 90 points one season and ended up 3rd
points are a lot lower this season as 10 clubs are evening out the points

so long as we finish 3rd to 6th we have achieved what we could have expected then its down to the lottery of the play offs
 
alcoblade said:
What's more, I enjoyed watching us the 2nd half of last season.

UTB
Click to expand...

but why the results in April were worse than what your complaining about and we were bloody awful against tranmere orient stevenage its because we as fans set too high an expectation level , so now its oooh were only 5th and could lose in the play offs , but we could get 90 points and lose in a play off so lets see what happens
what really made last season more enjoyable was wednesday failing v charlton if we study it then us beating them. the cup run made our league form seem better
 
blade too long said:
we were never 5th though , we never were last season ................points are only part of the story , we got 90 points one season and ended up 3rd
points are a lot lower this season as 10 clubs are evening out the points

so long as we finish 3rd to 6th we have achieved what we could have expected then its down to the lottery of the play offs
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Last season we had 5pts after the first eleven games we need 5pts to equal last seasons points total with seven left to play, yes we should do it but I don't call that progress considering Clough has had all summer to assemble his team with resources that were not in place last season. Out of the squad of around 40 players we still can't see any improvement overall on the team that played in the Wembley cup semi - final.
 

metalblade said:
Last season we had 5pts after the first eleven games we need 5pts to equal last seasons points total with seven left to play, yes we should do it but I don't call that progress considering Clough has had all summer to assemble his team with resources that were not in place last season. Out of the squad of around 40 players we still can't see any improvement overall on the team that played in the Wembley cup semi - final.
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last season we didnt get a chance of promotion

this season looks like we will get in the play offs

perception trade off

wednesday fans would hail that to the heavens , we are just too sceptical . theyd be claiming greatness and the prem in 18 months , how they play would be inconsequential
wednesdays won 4 home games all season but their fans would argue and do they have made great progress , though avoiding the championship play offs 15 years on the trot

we needed to be 6 points better than last season to make 6th , if we do it surely its progress
slagging us off for not accumulating 80 odd points gets us nowhere better , a play off spot
 
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