Negative Nigel - Really? Some Evidence

[Jim Chimmerney]

The bottom line is, and we've been saying it all season, is that Nigel doesn't know what his best team is. We've struggled for goals all season yet Done and McNuts are on the bench. We've been crying out for a presence up front all season and now we have it, we don't play any strikers off him but rely on support from an ever changing midfield. The defence, similarly, has been ever-changing and it's no wonder we can't find any consistency.

The key to last season's run was a settled side and whilst I have sympathy for Clough with the injuries we've had, we still seem to be in pre-season mode looking for the winning formula which is not what you want at this stage. Is it nerves, negativity, lack of ability, luck, probably a mixture of everything.

Re this 'everyone's cup final' at the Lane, that may be the case but the best teams overcome this which is why the Chelseas, Barcelonas etc find a way. OK, they have world class players that can turn games but can anyone say that relatively speaking, with the players we've got man for man that we should be losing these home games ?

 

[itsinyerblood]

Could you send that again Jim? Not sure that 2 posts is enough to grasp what you're saying. UTB

 

[SwissBlade]

Great post Swiss..
This is exactly it and is why I feel if we do manage to go up then we will do well in the Championship. We are at our best when we are flying down the flanks on a quick counter attack as we saw vs. Spurs & Southampton and Charlton & Forest last year. We are a scary proposition for the opposition when we do counter. Look at Bristol City away.

The problem we are seeing is that teams line up with 11 behind the ball (especially at home). Blade56 mentions this above although I think he gets it 100% wrong. We are having to keep possession in defence and midfield to try and draw their players in so that we can play a killer ball. This isn't negative, this is stuff you are taught in the playground - "KEEP THE BALL!" you'd hear your teacher shout. "DON'T TRY AND FORCE IT". Some of our fans think we should go against the grain and play direct football constantly and feel that any pass backwards is a negative pass. Honestly, a lot of the people you read on here and that sit near me have clearly never played football to a decent level... Neither have I - Sunday League was as far as I got but the nonsense that comes out of some mouths suggests that they don't understand the game of football at all.

We are having to pass 10 times then go backwards and start again as they have 11 behind the ball. They don't have 11 behind the ball because we are letting them

This is something that sides are really using against us, we've used against sides from higher divisions or even in tightly matched games in our own division. And you're right, patience and keeping the ball is taught from a young age.

Credit has to go to struggling Crewe for doing what Scunny couldn't do if they played until next year! Crewe played a very high tempo game, got into us and broke us down. However, looking at the highlights again, we created a lot, maybe not clear cut shots and chances, but we were getting in behind them, so they also perhaps got a bit of luck. It is however, noticeable that neither Freeman nor Harris got forward enough and we were often left to Basham making forward runs which could be broken down more easily. Murphy was not at his best, but he was also nullified with two defenders on him (not unusual i know).

But with the quality that we have, we should not only be talented and smart enough to keep the ball, but to have the movement and incisiveness to get in behind them. The imagination at times on Saturday was non existent and we were back to Robson/ Weir attempts at passing the ball sideways or not having the energy or desire to move forward.

I'm pretty torn on it all really, keeping the ball isn't a bad thing, not concentrating or not doing your job defensively is...

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

This is something that sides are really using against us, we've used against sides from higher divisions or even in tightly matched games in our own division. And you're right, patience and keeping the ball is taught from a young age.

Credit has to go to struggling Crewe for doing what Scunny couldn't do if they played until next year! Crewe played a very high tempo game, got into us and broke us down. However, looking at the highlights again, we created a lot, maybe not clear cut shots and chances, but we were getting in behind them, so they also perhaps got a bit of luck. It is however, noticeable that neither Freeman nor Harris got forward enough and we were often left to Basham making forward runs which could be broken down more easily. Murphy was not at his best, but he was also nullified with two defenders on him (not unusual i know).

But with the quality that we have, we should not only be talented and smart enough to keep the ball, but to have the movement and incisiveness to get in behind them. The imagination at times on Saturday was non existent and we were back to Robson/ Weir attempts at passing the ball sideways or not having the energy or desire to move forward.

I'm pretty torn on it all really, keeping the ball isn't a bad thing, not concentrating or not doing your job defensively is...

Clough eluded to that in his post match but knowing that teams are going to do it, we should have a plan B. Sticking two on Murph is an obvious tactic now as it's clear he's our biggest threat but the fact is, with two on Murph, someone else should be free. Don't want to get into the 4-5-1 debate but I really think we need to try and find a way of playing Done alongside Davies, particularly at home.

 

[yorkshirecoast]

I've watched us plenty this season and don't think we are at all negative.

I don't see that the details of minutes per shot, when we have those shots etc are relevant: we are having as many, or more, shots per game than our closest rivals.

If we are negative then they are they are all negative too. In fact they're more negative.

Recycling possession and/or counterattacking are not negative.

I've watched every home game this season and we are incredibly negative. Slow tempo, backwards, sideways, not enough going forward when we do eventually attack, everyone back for opposition corners, trying to keep it tight rather than attacking - even when playing at home to absolute garbage.

Numerous lower placed teams have shown more attacking ambition than us on our own ground.

 

[AlienBlade]

Agree with Blade56. We do seem to be negative and it seems that it is due to playing with fear. I don't agree that this is due to the fans as the fans only start to groan when the negative football begins. The players are frightened to make mistakes as they will be seemingly bombed out if they do... unless you are Coutts that is.

not entirely true people were groaning when shots were getting hit wide (as the OP says) its not negativity its just poor play from the players. so that's an attacking stance (to takee a shot) getting a negative reaction from the crowd (jeers and moans) this in turn makes players even more fearful and stops them from wanting to shoot... and thus a negative cycle starts from a positive action.

 

[AlienBlade]

Clough eluded to that in his post match but knowing that teams are going to do it, we should have a plan B. Sticking two on Murph is an obvious tactic now as it's clear he's our biggest threat but the fact is, with two on Murph, someone else should be free. Don't want to get into the 4-5-1 debate but I really think we need to try and find a way of playing Done alongside Davies, particularly at home.

we have tried 3 or 4 times to play Done along side Davies.... and 0 wins have come out of it (and some of these were at home against what many fans would deem poorer sides)

Murphy was poor on Saturday even when he had just one to beat he was stopping and passing inside rather than getting to the byline to put a ball in (like he did when we scored)

the fact is flynn was also on form against Scunny which meant they couldnt double up on both of them,

my only point I think that stands out is the players dont break or pass quick enough (something Nigel has indicated in several postmatch interviews about poor decision making) this is something down to a player at any given moment, not the tactics

 

[metalblade]

Most of the time this season it is obvious to a blind man why teams get 11 men behind the ball it is because we play at such a slow boring tempo, teams have all the time in the world to get organised while we play it slowly across the back four. Then by the time we get bored of this we have no movement in midfield or up front and very few options of anyone in space to pass to or any space for then to run into. We then end up lumping it forward to a small guy marked by two huge centre backs or a nothing ball to a midfielder who returns it back to the back four because he is quickly closed down. The tempo is so slow that most of the time those up front or in midfield usually have their back to goal, when they get the ball they have to turn or wait for a full back to move forward everything slows down till we give the ball away. We don't see balls played inside full backs at the lane anymore, we need to be faster in thought and play, get defenders turning and our attackers have the advantage straight away that is the tried and tested ways to make defenders make mistakes, do that and you score goals playing in front of them makes their life easy no matter how crap they are.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

we have tried 3 or 4 times to play Done along side Davies.... and 0 wins have come out of it (and some of these were at home against what many fans would deem poorer sides)

Murphy was poor on Saturday even when he had just one to beat he was stopping and passing inside rather than getting to the byline to put a ball in (like he did when we scored)

the fact is flynn was also on form against Scunny which meant they couldnt double up on both of them,

my only point I think that stands out is the players dont break or pass quick enough (something Nigel has indicated in several postmatch interviews about poor decision making) this is something down to a player at any given moment, not the tactics

They started together at home to Fleetwood where Davies had been with us for less than 24 hours and in the next two away games but since then, they've only had just over a half together against Port Vale (where we won )

Agree that Flynn is a big loss.

 

[MobileBlade]

Mmmm. Figures can look deceiving though.
I shoot from 30 yards, it's a tame effort and it goes 5 yards wide or the goalkeeper drops his cap on it,

How many times has that actually happened in the last three games?

 

[AlienBlade]

They started together at home to Fleetwood where Davies had been with us for less than 24 hours and in the next two away games but since then, they've only had just over a half together against Port Vale (where we won )

Agree that Flynn is a big loss.

Port Vale he didnt play up top... Done played on the wing

in fact all the way through the season I dont think I can name a win where we have played 2 up top....

 

[jt64]

Would rather us retain possession and look to get actual high quality chances rather than just smash it into the Kop from 30 yards whenever the opportunity arises

 

[TopBoy]

George Graham in his Arsenal days was negative - the king of 1-0's, Nigel is a lot of things but not negative. Personally I think that we're appear to be negative as we don't move the ball fast enough as a team (not to be confused with having fast players), and prefer to try to keep the ball (like the Liverpool team of the 80's but with less able players).

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

George Graham in his Arsenal days was negative - the king of 1-0's, Nigel is a lot of things but not negative. Personally I think that we're appear to be negative as we don't move the ball fast enough as a team (not to be confused with having fast players), and prefer to try to keep the ball (like the Liverpool team of the 80's but with less able players).

We ARE capable of playing to a quick tempo that's the frustrating thing and why I think the focus goes back onto the manager when we seem to retreat into our shell as fans presume he's telling them to play that way. Said it many times, the Clough style is great against 'better' opposition and away from home but not when the onus is on us to break teams down.

 

[finlaytheblade]

Stats on shots are really not a great benchmark of positivity, but I get your point. Three of our last opponents have been struggling sides, so again you need to look at more than just the stats. The negativity issue is frustrating as i read on another thread that we should stop the negativity and play the exciting, attacking football iLife we've done in the cups... Yet it's the cups where we play 4-5-1 and play real counter attacking football. Plus in those games we often had less possession! It's a perception.

I had a little laugh at a bloke walking out of the Kop on Saturday, he was talking to his teenage son saying "Clough has to go", he's negative and he's fed up with one up front. I don't disagree that we didn't get much out of the game on Saturday, we were shite.

However, the outfield starting line up v Crewe was exactly the same as the side that played Scunny. In that game, negativity and one up front got us a 4-0 victory against a side in a similar position to Scunny. As I (and many others on here have previously stated) people see 4-5-1 as negative, but it's a solid set up when defending, making us hard to break down. On the attack this quickly becomes 4-3-3, which we played mostly on Saturday and Tuesday.

The problem is that yet again desperation sets in when we concede, we don't go gung-ho, the build ups are patient, but we rush things In and around them box. In possession were pretty good against lower end sides, despite the pressure from Crewe we still kept the ball but they allowed us to, further out. There wasn't enough penetration in behind their back four, fullbacks weren't overlapping as usual, particularly Freeman.

Perhaps the negativity on Saturday came with allowing a tired Murphy to stay on, not gambling on Che Adams. Bringing Davies on for Flynn instead of Done, yet Davies' normal reliability in delivering the balls wasn't there. With Baxter, Flynn and Davis all there subs were said to be anagerenforced. So perhaps the real negativity is not rotating his squad and playing some fringe players, but then playing your best 11 is arguably quite a positive...

agree with you swiss 4 5 1 or variables of it is the way most teams play today very effective that is why teams play this way
the best teams are able to make it very flexible which clough is trying to do not getting it right often enough but it will come.
As regarding leaving out tired players! he would have got slaughtered on sat if he had left murphy on the bench,he cant win
as he gets critism for making changers to a winning team ,makes non get beat and the clough beating erupts again.The life of a football manager you certainly need to be thick skinned

 

[Pittsburg Blade]

Don't forget the best bit, Negative and Nigel both start with N. Its brilliant.

Not to mention Clueless Cloughy.

We all get a kick out of a good soundbite, and miss that playground name-calling that made us feel so powerful.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

I've watched us plenty this season and don't think we are at all negative.

I don't see that the details of minutes per shot, when we have those shots etc are relevant: we are having as many, or more, shots per game than our closest rivals.

If we are negative then they are they are all negative too. In fact they're more negative.

Recycling possession and/or counterattacking are not negative.

To make it simple i would replace negative , with sometimes just not good enough .

UTB

 

[longinthe toothblade]

To make it simple i would replace negative , with sometimes just not good enough .

UTB

I would drop 'sometimes'.

 

[alcoblade]

If our current style isn't considered negative, then I'm done with football.



UTB

 

[longinthe toothblade]

What you don't realise is that NC is that good a manager, that he asks the players to miss when they get in a goalscoring position.
I do not know who started the phrase Negative Nigel but the guy who did is the Pied Piper with the rats following Or the others who keep terming it would score maximum points each time on WhiteHawk's Sheep game.

The phrase started in Derby before he came to us.

 

[longinthe toothblade]

We recycle possession instead of charging backwards and forwards, winning and losing the ball.

This isn't negative it's patient. If the game hasn't opened up we try again. Often most effectively when we switch play quickly but sometimes eg Freeman's and Murphy's runs into the boxes, and some passing exchanges we do work our way through thanks to good accurate short passing and movement. I like to watch it.



But that isn't what we do. We have some shots from distance Baxter v Walsall and Baxter v Crewe - some work some fail. We have some shots from inside the area. We play the ball across the box. We've even started getting opportunities from corners.



Has Clough or anyone said this. And even if they have it might be fanciful/clutching at straws, some of it might at worst even be incompetent, but it's not negative.

We are not a negative team. And as I posted elsewhere the efforts everyone made against Port Vale in particular were positive from start to finish.

Apologies if I'm being a bit thick but what do you actually mean by "recycling possession?"

 

[sportinguista]

It's negative to win possesion in your own half then spend 30 seconds passing it across the back 4 while teams drop all of their 11 players back to their 18 yard box.

Hang on, the oppo (that's the OTHER team, not the Blades) dropping all 11 players back to their 18 yard box, sounds more negative to me.
Just saying...

 

[Lane Ender]

Port Vale he didnt play up top... Done played on the wing

in fact all the way through the season I dont think I can name a win where we have played 2 up top....

In 442 the two strikers must play together when we have had two strikers in the starting line up they've played miles apart it's never going to work.
Also with two strikers you need a decent winger but he sent him to Notts

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Apologies if I'm being a bit thick but what do you actually mean by "recycling possession?"

Moving the ball from one side of the pitch to the other, trying to work an opening: If you can't get in down the left then keep the ball, pass sideways <God No!> or even backwards <explodes in purple-faced rage> and try to work it in down the right side.

I Googled it for a better explanation and (my cookies presumably) got this http://www.betterfootballcoaching.c...ss-the-ball-to-team-mates-to-keep-possession# as the top suggestion, it includes the following, which I think is spot on:

Younger players tend to want to attack the opponent's goal at every opportunity. This enthusiasm is a good quality in young players but it can often affect the team's rhythm because each player that receives the ball wants to immediately dribble or run forward in search of a goal.

To combat this, you should teach your players [and some of the fans ] to remain patient in possession and wait for the correct space and time to attack. Young players often try to force their way through pressure rather than turning away and quickly passing back to a team mate in space.

By passing the ball from side to side, your team will keep its opponent on the run. This will eventually tire them or create attacking opportunities.

I've not even looked at the drill, so I can't comment on that, but that's a very good description of possession-based football.

The actual definition he uses of recycling possession is lower down the page, but I think amounts to what I said at the start.

FWIW I don't see this as the right way to play football - for me there isn't one. And to some extent it's a fashion inspired by recent Barcelona teams, which like any system has its shortcomings - but whatever it is, it's not negative.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

The phrase started in Derby before he came to us.

Which, aisi, shows one of two things:

• Negative Nigel is actually negative (I don't think the evidence supports this)
• Some of their fans see the style of football as negative, and some don't (like what happens here)

 

[Caseh]

I don't think its particularly negative, though some of his decisions and subs are. I think its mostly that our tempo is just too slow. Passing it around slowly is OK sometimes, but only if you're going to have sudden changes of tempo with running and passing alike. I think a big problem is not having a settled back 4 though, the more offensive players are always going to be more worried about losing the ball when they don't have confidence in the players behind them.

 

[oldblade]

Mmmm. Figures can look deceiving though.
So I'm a Sheffield United player, I get the ball 35 yards out, look one way, no support, look another way no support, step forward a couple of yards, still no support. So I shoot from 30 yards, it's a tame effort and it goes 5 yards wide or the goalkeeper drops his cap on it, regardless of where the shot ends up it's still counted as a shot.
All it tells you if you analyse it was that a shot was taken because of the negativity of the play not because of the positivity of the play.

That is not what happened against Crewe. There was plenty of support around our shooting players.

 

[alcoblade]

That is not what happened against Crewe. There was plenty of support around our shooting players.

Not as I recall fella. There were plenty of times I was beckoning players forward. I was amazed how deep so many players sat during so many attacks.

UTB

 

[oldblade]

Not as I recall fella. There were plenty of times I was beckoning players forward. I was amazed how deep so many players sat during so many attacks.

UTB

I didn't say every time we attacked. I said there was plenty of support around our shooting players. That is factual and all captured on video. And I was responding to a post that seemed to be insinuating that much of our shooting is somehow a result of our negativity.

 

[boo radley]

The phrase started in Derby before he came to us.

Ah so the fans who call him that are following Derby fans.