Is the Prince's luck running out?

[robbiez666]

No you weren't.

You were responding to my post that said we could off deals until 2026, "that will be better than almost any Championship club can offer"

The almost being pretty key. It's likely that other clubs with parachute payments are going to be able to offer better deals than us. Other than that, I'd expect us to have one of the highest wage bills in the Championship in 2024/25 if we are in that league.

Interested to know why you think that wouldn't be the case.

Apologies, I read your first post a little wrongly and assumed the worst with the rest.

Worth clarifying that we have a guaranteed £170 million not £200 million (1 x EPL TV etc (£105-112 million) + 2 x Parachute payments).

My response was directly to offering players contracts until 2026 on wages that are higher than most of the Championship (I initially read that wrong as well). We simply can't afford to do that.

If by those wages you mean circa £50k pw, let's say that's 15 x 50 = £39 million plus and other £16 million for everyone else. No player is signing that kind of contract with a hefty relegation reduction clause as we're almost certain to go down and then you're stuck on medium to low Championship wages. So let's say he go down and our wage bill is £50 million. Admin/running fees for the club are something between £12-20 million. That's £70 million to run the club for 2 seasons in the Championship.

Obviously some of that £170 million is going to be spent on transfer fees, loan fees, signing on fees, agent fees etc.

The Prince couldn't afford to fund the club in 2 years time.

Yes, we can offer good money to a few younger players but anything you offer to one you're going to have to match for others.

So, I don't think the Prince can afford to fund the club for 3 years and offer more wages than players are currently on for that period. I also think it would potentially leave us in similar problems to Sunderland/Birmingham etc had with high earners they couldn't shift and who added little.

 

[robbiez666]

Currently our midfield will come from the following. Fleck, Osborn, Norwood , Berge Baldock Bogle and Lowe. How many starters there? At least two of them didn’t look to be going anywhere near the PL when their deals ran out.

I suspect you'd have suitors for Furious, Berge and Bogle if the price is free. But it's not even the PL. There will be Championship teams who would be interested in all of them on a free. Lowe has got two promotions on the bounce. Easy to forget something like that. I suspect all bar Fleck would get offers on more money than they're currently on if there's no transfer fee. The squad harmony is the reason we went up.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I suspect you'd have suitors for Furious, Berge and Bogle if the price is free. But it's not even the PL. There will be Championship teams who would be interested in all of them on a free. Lowe has got two promotions on the bounce. Easy to forget something like that. I suspect all bar Fleck would get offers on more money than they're currently on if there's no transfer fee. The squad harmony is the reason we went up.

They are in the squad of a PL side and with a couple of exceptions you’ve actually agreed they are championship levelplayers. Which is my point.

 

[robbiez666]

They are in the squad of a PL side and with a couple of exceptions you’ve actually agreed they are championship levelplayers. Which is my point.

We went up last time with Championship level players. We finished 9th. We can't afford Premier League level players so you can either play players who you know inside out, who know our system inside out and you can rely on or you sign players who no other Premier League/Champions League teams want to sign and hope they are both good enough and can learn to fit into our system quickly.

 

[COME BACK CHED]

Prince got no luck in the Penalty Shoot out at Forest , or Drawing Man City in the Cup semi or Newcastle owners appearing on the scene or loads of players injured etc even the Pigs going up wont have helped .

 

[Sean Thornton]

We went up last time with Championship level players. We finished 9th. We can't afford Premier League level players so you can either play players who you know inside out, who know our system inside out and you can rely on or you sign players who no other Premier League/Champions League teams want to sign and hope they are both good enough and can learn to fit into our system quickly.

We made additions to the squad. As of now we’ve given two sweetheart deals on the basis of loyalty? You’d have to be blind not to see that there’s quite a few of our players who would be squad players a best even in some championship side. Even with the underlying financial position how is that moving forward?

 

[robbiez666]

We made additions to the squad. As of now we’ve given two sweetheart deals on the basis of loyalty? You’d have to be blind not to see that there’s quite a few of our players who would be squad players a best even in some championship side. Even with the underlying financial position how is that moving forward?

We have no or next to no money.

Hoe many Premier League quality players do you think we're going to sign on the second lowest wage in the Premier League? Free transfers who are good enough at this level can get double what we'd pay and play in Europe.

It is a short-term strategy and I've moaned over the years about our long-term approach many times. But if there's no money, having two players who can occupy the 24th and 25th position in our squad, can come in and do ok in our system and happy on half the wages anyone else would want seems quite sensible.

 

[cooperblade]

Fan pressure may be the wrong words. There was however much criticism of his continued selection which peaked after the Luton defeat (see pommpey s My Take). If the decision to finally drop them only occurred after another poor performance, it makes you wonder what he was seeing. The changes made then sent us on a run for promotion with Burnley the only blip.

Whilst he’s severely hogtied now with a lack of funds we can see his loyalty to his players. That loyalty when some were struggling caused the wobble we suffered.

I've had Pommpey on ignore for years but if he criticised the selection, I can see how Heckingbottom was forced to act.

 

[Sean Thornton]

We have no or next to no money.

Hoe many Premier League quality players do you think we're going to sign on the second lowest wage in the Premier League? Free transfers who are good enough at this level can get double what we'd pay and play in Europe.

It is a short-term strategy and I've moaned over the years about our long-term approach many times. But if there's no money, having two players who can occupy the 24th and 25th position in our squad, can come in and do ok in our system and happy on half the wages anyone else would want seems quite sensible.

Oddly enough l’m aware there is no money. I think l’ve mentioned it a couple of times.

Neither could really hack it last season. Now in a division higher you still expect them to be good enough as squad players? Really.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I've had Pommpey on ignore for years but if he criticised the selection, I can see how Heckingbottom was forced to act.

Ha ha. Funnily enough he wasn’t alone. Hecky obviously agreed since he then left them out and the season picked up again.

 

[robbiez666]

Oddly enough l’m aware there is no money. I think l’ve mentioned it a couple of times.

Neither could really hack it last season. Now in a division higher you still expect them to be good enough as squad players? Really.

Name these players we can bring in for the same cost who will be better? I really don't get your point. In a perfect world, neither would get a new contract but we're on the breadline and have to somehow find 2 first choice CBs, a LCB, a Striker, at the very least.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Name these players we can bring in for the same cost who will be better? I really don't get your point. In a perfect world, neither would get a new contract but we're on the breadline and have to somehow find 2 first choice CBs, a LCB, a Striker, at the very least.

I have no idea of the cost. Neither do you so it’s a pretty daft question.

 

[Espania blade]

We made additions to the squad. As of now we’ve given two sweetheart deals on the basis of loyalty? You’d have to be blind not to see that there’s quite a few of our players who would be squad players a best even in some championship side. Even with the underlying financial position how is that moving forward?

"As of now we’ve given two sweetheart deals on the basis of loyalty? " I would suggest it's part of "evolution of the squad over time" rather than doing a Fulham or a Forest ie having a mas clear out we have chosen to evolve the squad over time, keeping tried & trusted players for various reasons, maybe their influence in the dressing room or on younger players, I doubt either of them will be here after this coming season ends

 

[1066blade]

Barring any miracles in the next 6 weeks, we are the biggest certs in EPL history to be relegated in the first promotion season

 

[finlaytheblade]

Fan pressure may be the wrong words. There was however much criticism of his continued selection which peaked after the Luton defeat (see pommpey s My Take). If the decision to finally drop them only occurred after another poor performance, it makes you wonder what he was seeing. The changes made then sent us on a run for promotion with Burnley the only blip.

Whilst he’s severely hogtied now with a lack of funds we can see his loyalty to his players. That loyalty when some were struggling caused the wobble we suffered.

Hecki did a good job with the city loanees both had fitness issues! Doyle from the start and Mcatee picked up a few knocks
along the way.Built up Mcatees game time and finished with a flourish. He brought them along really well and would have add more game time if fit.
Don't think he was favouring the old school great finish to the season every player played there part whether big or small

 

[ThatJa]

Hotels still shut. Which considering we are now back in the prem is ridiculous. Id imagine bookings were higher whilst in prem around our matchdays.

Probably not, as it was closed down during our PL years. Covid was certainly a factor as with most businesses, but if it was genuinely profitable then it would have re-opened. A hotel on the side of a football stadium with an average attendance of 27k, you'd think would be a business chomping at the bit to re-open.

 

[ThatJa]

Barring any miracles in the next 6 weeks, we are the biggest certs in EPL history to be relegated in the first promotion season

Luton have something to say about that. Not exactly pulling trees up with the re-signing of Nakamba from a PL club, which is one of their 2 loans from PL clubs gone.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

Probably not, as it was closed down during our PL years. Covid was certainly a factor as with most businesses, but if it was genuinely profitable then it would have re-opened. A hotel on the side of a football stadium with an average attendance of 27k, you'd think would be a business chomping at the bit to re-open.

Isn't it cladding that's stopping it? We had a new operator lined up and even announced it on the official site so clearly Hilton thought they could make it work

 

[Sean Thornton]

Isn't it cladding that's stopping it? We had a new operator lined up and even announced it on the official site so clearly Hilton thought they could make it work

I believe it lost money every single year. Hilton take a management fee presumably with a built in profit. Many people described it as a McCabe folly at the time ( can’t say l did) and were proven to be correct. It had the backing of Scarborough then though.

Now it’s a shell with cladding removal required. Not hard to see why it’s not something the owner is currently considering throwing money at.

Always worth repeat airings though.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

I believe it lost money every single year. Hilton take a management fee presumably with a built in profit. Many people described it as a McCabe folly at the time ( can’t say l did) and were proven to be correct. It had the backing of Scarborough then though.

Now it’s a shell with cladding removal required. Not hard to see why it’s not something the owner is currently considering throwing money at.

Always worth repeat airings though.

If so who did it lose money for? The operator and not us? As long as we were getting x amount in that's more than nothing? The Hilton deal was announced in 2021 well after Grenfell so it's not like there was a dramatic change especially as it was slap bang in the middle of COVID restrictions still so not even that was a shock.

Hilton checks in at Bramall Lane

The place to get all your Sheffield United news on the first team, academy and Sheffield United Women. Download the app via the App Store and Google Play Store

www.sufc.co.uk

Just like the new training building something that looked set to go then....didn't.

 

[Sean Thornton]

If so who did it lose money for? The operator and not us? As long as we were getting x amount in that's more than nothing? The Hilton deal was announced in 2021 well after Grenfell so it's not like there was a dramatic change especially as it was slap bang in the middle of COVID restrictions still so not even that was a shock.

Hilton checks in at Bramall Lane

The place to get all your Sheffield United news on the first team, academy and Sheffield United Women. Download the app via the App Store and Google Play Store

www.sufc.co.uk

Just like the new training building something that looked set to go then....didn't.

Lol. LOSS. We got minus x. Check it out.

The accounts show the company that suffered the losses was the company controlled by Kevin McCabe. The hotel business is charged a fee by the operator, formerly Copthorne. Year in year out that cost plus other expenses, together with the write down of the hotels value as a going concern added up to more than the income receivable. Hence a loss.

May be do a bit of research initially then you wouldn’t end up asking a daft question about who suffered the losses.

For the rather obvious reasons, to most anyway, The Prince didn’t want the hotel but was obliged to take it under the terms of the agreement between the parties.

Your “skint Arab” routine doesn’t really fit neatly alongside your onion peeling “why oh why isn’t the hotel open” routine when all but the dumbest on here know the funds simply aren’t there.

As a Prince beating stick it’s made of silly putty.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

Lol. LOSS. We got minus x. Check it out.

The accounts show the company that suffered the losses was the company controlled by Kevin McCabe. The hotel business is charged a fee by the operator, formerly Copthorne. Year in year out that cost plus other expenses, together with the write down of the hotels value as a going concern added up to more than the income receivable. Hence a loss.

May be do a bit of research initially then you wouldn’t end up asking a daft question about who suffered the losses.

For the rather obvious reasons, to most anyway, The Prince didn’t want the hotel but was obliged to take it under the terms of the agreement between the parties.

Your “skint Arab” routine doesn’t really fit neatly alongside your onion peeling “why oh why isn’t the hotel open” routine when all but the dumbest on here know the funds simply aren’t there.

As a Prince beating stick it’s made of silly putty.

Then if all this is correct why look for and announce a new deal?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Then if all this is correct why look for and announce a new deal?

Well presumably to try and turn things around providing a new income stream after being rid of debt owed to Scarbough etc. Bit left field but maybe you can grasp it.

I suspect in your ignorance you thought it was making money and therefore our “clueless” owner was oblivious to the pots of money out there. A man touting around an asset for over a hundred million, providing a profit of tens of millions requiring advice from an internet poster who questions his decisions without the merest knowledge of the past trading history of the hotel.

You use the little man regularly, presumably to indicate a question - the ? does that - so l’d suggest it’s usage ought to mean “what the fuck am l talking about”
which is far more suited.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

If only there was other income streams like flats and apartments in a central location?! The club clearly thought for multiple years and 3 different ownership models that the hotel was worth it.

Anyway it's Saturday night. I'm not going to be spending it on here

 

[Sean Thornton]

If only there was other income streams like flats and apartments in a central location?! The club clearly thought for multiple years and 3 different ownership models that the hotel was worth it.

Anyway it's Saturday night. I'm not going to be spending it on here

The ownership models were linked. After the first one, the others were/are stuck with it. Try and think things through.

Going to shout abuse at the gates to Windsor Castle in the hope some of those people with more money than you are in residence?

 

[1066blade]

Luton have something to say about that. Not exactly pulling trees up with the re-signing of Nakamba from a PL club, which is one of their 2 loans from PL clubs gone.

OK, along with Luton - feel better now?

 

[blade67]

Apologies, I read your first post a little wrongly and assumed the worst with the rest.

Worth clarifying that we have a guaranteed £170 million not £200 million (1 x EPL TV etc (£105-112 million) + 2 x Parachute payments).

My response was directly to offering players contracts until 2026 on wages that are higher than most of the Championship (I initially read that wrong as well). We simply can't afford to do that.

If by those wages you mean circa £50k pw, let's say that's 15 x 50 = £39 million plus and other £16 million for everyone else. No player is signing that kind of contract with a hefty relegation reduction clause as we're almost certain to go down and then you're stuck on medium to low Championship wages. So let's say he go down and our wage bill is £50 million. Admin/running fees for the club are something between £12-20 million. That's £70 million to run the club for 2 seasons in the Championship.

Obviously some of that £170 million is going to be spent on transfer fees, loan fees, signing on fees, agent fees etc.

The Prince couldn't afford to fund the club in 2 years time.

Yes, we can offer good money to a few younger players but anything you offer to one you're going to have to match for others.

So, I don't think the Prince can afford to fund the club for 3 years and offer more wages than players are currently on for that period. I also think it would potentially leave us in similar problems to Sunderland/Birmingham etc had with high earners they couldn't shift and who added little.

I understand you thinking but...

I think we'll be able to offer contracts with a Prem premium and a higher end Championship wage that many of our players will sign. Average Championship wages are circa £15k a week, so we can easily offer something more attractive than that as part of a 3 year deal. I understand our "top" players won't accept that but we need to offer a range, like all clubs.

Ultimately you disagree. I think you are being a bity negative, perhaps I'm being a bit optimistic. We'll see where we are at Christmas I guess.

BTW - my "circa £200m" includes other revenue like matchday income and Commercial revenue. By comparison Boro's income in 2022 was £26m , so we're in clover compared to a team that I'd guess is top 8 in the league.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I understand you thinking but...

I think we'll be able to offer contracts with a Prem premium and a higher end Championship wage that many of our players will sign. Average Championship wages are circa £15k a week, so we can easily offer something more attractive than that as part of a 3 year deal. I understand our "top" players won't accept that but we need to offer a range, like all clubs.

Ultimately you disagree. I think you are being a bity negative, perhaps I'm being a bit optimistic. We'll see where we are at Christmas I guess.

BTW - my "circa £200m" includes other revenue like matchday income and Commercial revenue. By comparison Boro's income in 2022 was £26m , so we're in clover compared to a team that I'd guess is top 8 in the league.

in the first PL season under Wilder income totalled, £143m with £116m coming from broadcasting. ££21m from match day and sponsorship and the balance from “facility”

 

[blade67]

in the first PL season under Wilder income totalled, £143m with £116m coming from broadcasting. ££21m from match day and sponsorship and the balance from “facility”

Yes. My "circa £200m was over 3 years and I thought it was an underestimate. It was also assuming immediate relegation.

 

[blade67]

Probably not, as it was closed down during our PL years. Covid was certainly a factor as with most businesses, but if it was genuinely profitable then it would have re-opened. A hotel on the side of a football stadium with an average attendance of 27k, you'd think would be a business chomping at the bit to re-open.

And a 800 yard walk from the 4/5th largest city in England.