With 5-3-2 not working any more, what would be your preferred formation with everyone fit?

[ancientblade]

This idea that our players are not suited to or good enough to play in a back four , often espoused on this forum really puzzles me .

The reality is that it is far less demanding in a number of key areas than is the format we continue to persist with which has been so brutally exposed . For 3 at the back with wingbacks to be successful , it requires almost superhuman levels of ability , commitment and athleticism from the 5 players involved .

As one example take the case of George Baldock (when playing) who , as I have previously mentioned , is expected to perform like Colin Morris at one end of the pitch then sprint back 70 yards and become the reincarnation of Len Badger .

As another , think of the number of times John Egan has been badly exposed as a result of not having another central defender to back him up .

Neither of these scenarios occur with a well organised back four with a holding midfielder in front . The situations I’ve just described might just give a clue as to why our system has not been adopted by almost every football coach across the world and why they don’t hold the record for the worst start to a season in the history of the game.

agree 100% joe but it just doesnt look like chris is gonna try anything apart from 352 and your spot on about egan hes often on his own centrally with no help at all if egan and joc are not sold would like them to be our centre back pairing next season and like you say just have a holding midfielder as protection

 

[247Blade]

Probably 11 goalkeepers .... oh silly me we haven't got 1!

 

[cmuk]

it would in one way but teams have stopped our wing backs getting forward its too easy to play against im afraid

The reason it's not worked well this season is down to poor player form. At his best Stevens seemed god-like but now doesn't seem to be able to beat anyone. Obviously I can name most of our midfield as being poor

It has little to do with formation, the same players who are slow and give the ball away, can't score or get in to the game would still be the same in a different formation. The only reason to change would be to not have to play Stevens, Norwood, Fleck... etc...

 

[metalblade]

I've bee saying for weeks 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1

 

[Upton_Blade]

If we HAVE to change then these would be worth a try IMO.

 

[Bladesmanstan]

This is mainly a formation that I'd want us to change to next season (in the champ). It's 3-4-3 (with some shitty scribbles on it to show u how I'd play it). If you don't understand the picture then this is a basic description of it: The 2 circles are the CDMs who drop to feet or drift into pockets. 8 and 5 are the RM and LM who go outside, with 9 and 11 inside forwards who free up space outside for the RM and LM. That red box is the main target area, we can go direct to ST and have bodies swarming around him for flick ons or 2nd balls. Or we can play through the centre of the field with the ball being moved quickly, this is where the CDMs and ST can create triangles and do one touch football. Oh and the wide CBs drop out wide to more of a fullback role...with no intentions of running outside (like we focus on now) but can do if opportunity opens, but primarily they are feeding the ball down channel or infield for the more technically gifted players.

 

[Eels]

Isn't that pretty much what we played last time we were in the Championship? 5-3-2, 3-4-1-2 call it whatever. Basically with a no. 10.

 

[Davalon]

Goalie wag.

Biggest cunts in defence, quickest cunts up front apart from the fattest who can bog line.

 

[BobblesBlade]

Quite like the idea of a 4 2 3 1

Rambo
Baldock Egan JOC Stevens
Berge Basham
Bogle McG Burke
McB

Standard back 4, uncomplicated with 2 Centre halves just there to defend, less pressure on fullbacks and plays to Baldocks strength as a RB and negates his weakness going forward

2 pivots / holding players with Basham as destroyer / ball winner, job to win ball and give it to Berge

McG in a free role, with pace and trickery either side of him in Bogle and Burke playing as wingers

Either or up top, job just to hit the back of the net.

I’d take that but put Brewster instead of McBurnie

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

I'd go with a 4-5-1 of sorts, or a 4-2-3-1

Don't know which keeper

Baldock Egan JOC Stevens

Berge Fleck

Bogle McGoldrick Burke
Any of the current lot

RB and LB can then focus on defending. The double pivot in midfield provides retention of possession and passing options, and protection for the back 4.

Bogle and Burke offer pace, directness. But also protection for their wingbacks. McGoldrick deserves to be in the side. He could argue he deserve the starting striker role.

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

Quite like the idea of a 4 2 3 1

Rambo
Baldock Egan JOC Stevens
Berge Basham
Bogle McG Burke
McB

Standard back 4, uncomplicated with 2 Centre halves just there to defend, less pressure on fullbacks and plays to Baldocks strength as a RB and negates his weakness going forward

2 pivots / holding players with Basham as destroyer / ball winner, job to win ball and give it to Berge

McG in a free role, with pace and trickery either side of him in Bogle and Burke playing as wingers

Either or up top, job just to hit the back of the net.

Exactly what I just came here to say, just with slightly different personnel!

 

[ancientblade]

didnt chris play 4231 at northampton ? in any case we will have more opportunity to try other systems in the championship think if berge stays which is doubtful he would be better in a double pivot in the 2 in front of the back 4 similar to the position coutts played for us

 

[Bladesmanstan]

Isn't that pretty much what we played last time we were in the Championship? 5-3-2, 3-4-1-2 call it whatever. Basically with a no. 10.

Not sure if you're on about my post or not, but if you are then no not all. We played 5-2-1-2 in Championship. The one I'm on about is 3-4-3. One main striker with a LF and a RF who cut inside and make runs beyond striker. Also rather than having a LWB and a RWB, their will be RM and LM who have a much more attacking mentality, and look to get in behind constantly out wide. The CDMs need to be mobile enough and also technical enough to drift around the middle third of the field.

Much different to what we've ever played before. The movement off the ball would be much harder to deal with as theirs too many options to try and nullify. If they stopped us playing the ball to the CDMs then we could knock it into the channels with 2 players on either side looking to get in, or we can hit our ST and have much more bodies flooding into him. The wide CBs will be stepping into midfield to act as another CM to allow space either for themselves or one of the CDMs, so whichever they try to stop there's always a free pass available if they're gonna sit in....much different to what we've tried to do in the past where we basically have the wide CB running down the line and relying on them to give us width and asking them to put crosses in.

 

[ancientblade]

Not sure if you're on about my post or not, but if you are then no not all. We played 5-2-1-2 in Championship. The one I'm on about is 3-4-3. One main striker with a LF and a RF who cut inside and make runs beyond striker. Also rather than having a LWB and a RWB, their will be RM and LM who have a much more attacking mentality, and look to get in behind constantly out wide. The CDMs need to be mobile enough and also technical enough to drift around the middle third of the field.

Much different to what we've ever played before. The movement off the ball would be much harder to deal with as theirs too many options to try and nullify. If they stopped us playing the ball to the CDMs then we could knock it into the channels with 2 players on either side looking to get in, or we can hit our ST and have much more bodies flooding into him. The wide CBs will be stepping into midfield to act as another CM to allow space either for themselves or one of the CDMs, so whichever they try to stop there's always a free pass available if they're gonna sit in....much different to what we've tried to do in the past where we basically have the wide CB running down the line and relying on them to give us width and asking them to put crosses in.

the 3 strikers formation your on about would suit burke mcburnie and brewster who have all played this system before

 

[Bladesmanstan]

the 3 strikers formation your on about would suit burke mcburnie and brewster who have all played this system before

Yep. Only problem with this system is because it's highly technical, we'd need to recruit a few players. Besides Fleck and Berge we have no CMs capable of playing that CDM role in that system (and Berge is most likely leaving in summer). We'd need to recruit a LM that's good at dribbling, fast enough and one who will work hard defensively...unless RND was to play there (which I'd want anyway). Lastly we'd need a much more composed RCB to play as that support option, preferably McNair who is comfortable on ball and can pick a good pass....something that Bash can't do.

 

[Badger Blade]

I've got Berge sitting in front of the back 4 plugging gaps and doing the distributing at the base of a diamond with Osborn and Baldock providing the width, since we have no proper wide men. McGoldrick free to roam and Mousset gets a game, did ok in the few months that he was vaguely fit.

Even attempted some Man City style underlapping full backs just as something a bit different. Berge is the key man in this where he's got to fill in, Makelele style and be ready for when we lose the ball and be directing the traffic.

 

[ancientblade]

View attachment 103671

I've got Berge sitting in front of the back 4 plugging gaps and doing the distributing at the base of a diamond with Osborn and Baldock providing the width, since we have no proper wide men. McGoldrick free to roam and Mousset gets a game, did ok in the few months that he was vaguely fit.

Even attempted some Man City style underlapping full backs just as something a bit different. Berge is the key man in this where he's got to fill in, Makelele style and be ready for when we lose the ball and be directing the traffic.

thats the set up i would like us to go with next season think weve got the front men to make it work but still need a couple of new recruits in midfield

 

[Penny Black tart]

Mine would be 4-4-2

Ramsdale

Baldock Egan JOC Lowe

Bogle McG Osborne Fleck

McB Brewster

Of course you are a top coach, manager, and tactician, you see Wilder everyday and the trading at the academy. It isn’t the system that isn’t working it’s a mix of bad luck, bad injuries, and of course severe lack of confidence, and bad play and bad decisions. Back the team you mug and stop pretending this is FIFA.

 

[Sheff de party]

We should have gone 4-5-1 weeks ago when we realised we couldn’t replace the third centre half. Packing the midfield would have at least made us hard to break down.

 

[Sheff de party]

Of course you are a top coach, manager, and tactician, you see Wilder everyday and the trading at the academy. It isn’t the system that isn’t working it’s a mix of bad luck, bad injuries, and of course severe lack of confidence, and bad play and bad decisions. Back the team you mug and stop pretending this is FIFA.

Bit of a weird response unless you’ve never ever disagreed with anything a football manager has done.

It’s a discussion forum. People are going to offer opinions, it’s kind of the point.

 

[ancientblade]

We should have gone 4-5-1 weeks ago when we realised we couldn’t replace the third centre half. Packing the midfield would have at least made us hard to break down.

agree 100% with you not only would it have made us harder to break down we would have had more possesion in games we play 2 strikers every game but not enough possesion to provide em with ammunition from midfield

 

[GreasyChipBeattie]

Of course you are a top coach, manager, and tactician, you see Wilder everyday and the trading at the academy. It isn’t the system that isn’t working it’s a mix of bad luck, bad injuries, and of course severe lack of confidence, and bad play and bad decisions. Back the team you mug and stop pretending this is FIFA.

We lost the last 3 last season and first 2 of this with JOC (except at Southampton) McB and Henderson available/in the side, so that's why, regardless of which players we can or can't select, I think the way we play 5-3-2 isn't working any more.
I do agree with much of what you say though.

1. The injuries will have had a major impact on the results this season. JOC, although he played in 4 of the 5 losses I mentioned, has been a huge miss, With him continuing in the side, I reckon we would have pulled it round to be in a better position than we are, although nowhere near last season's levels.
2. Chuck in the bad luck you mentioned, including Egan's unjust red card at Villa, Leeds late winner off of Bamford's nose to name just 2, coupled with JOC's injury, and the already-fragile confidence began to drain even further.
3. The bad play and bad decisions you mention will bring any system to its knees.

This is the biggy for me though. I think (with my admittedly severely-limited top coach, manager and tactician ability!) that the other teams/managers have worked out how to deal with our system to nullify most of our forward play.
The OP then with this in mind, was more about how we can change effectively with the limitations of our players (when all fit) against better, more aware players.
Even with everyone available, I don't think we have been (would have been) able to operate as effectively as the first few months after promotion when a mixture of surprise and confident players got us the 1 goal wins (plus the brilliant 3 goal performances against Burnley, Spurs and Chelsea at home) where back end of last season and almost all of this, they haven't.
For what it's worth, even though teams do now know what to expect from us and how to counter it, I do think our system could still work really well, but we'd need an upgrade on almost all the players which isn't going to happen, hence me asking what formation might be a better option for us now.

 

[ancientblade]

We lost the last 3 last season and first 2 of this with JOC (except at Southampton) McB and Henderson available/in the side, so that's why, regardless of which players we can or can't select, I think the way we play 5-3-2 isn't working any more.
I do agree with much of what you say though.

1. The injuries will have had a major impact on the results this season. JOC, although he played in 4 of the 5 losses I mentioned, has been a huge miss, With him continuing in the side, I reckon we would have pulled it round to be in a better position than we are, although nowhere near last season's levels.
2. Chuck in the bad luck you mentioned, including Egan's unjust red card at Villa, Leeds late winner off of Bamford's nose to name just 2, coupled with JOC's injury, and the already-fragile confidence began to drain even further.
3. The bad play and bad decisions you mention will bring any system to its knees.

This is the biggy for me though. I think (with my admittedly severely-limited top coach, manager and tactician ability!) that the other teams/managers have worked out how to deal with our system to nullify most of our forward play.
The OP then with this in mind, was more about how we can change effectively with the limitations of our players (when all fit) against better, more aware players.
Even with everyone available, I don't think we have been (would have been) able to operate as effectively as the first few months after promotion when a mixture of surprise and confident players got us the 1 goal wins (plus the brilliant 3 goal performances against Burnley, Spurs and Chelsea at home) where back end of last season and almost all of this, they haven't.
For what it's worth, even though teams do now know what to expect from us and how to counter it, I do think our system could still work really well, but we'd need an upgrade on almost all the players which isn't going to happen, hence me asking what formation might be a better option for us now.

all i can think is that chris doesnt think we can play any other system with the players weve got that has to be the main reason he hasnt changed anything formation wise but still think anything would have been worth a try

 

[GreasyChipBeattie]

all i can think is that chris doesnt think we can play any other system with the players weve got that has to be the main reason he hasnt changed anything formation wise but still think anything would have been worth a try

I think the very least it would do is give the players fresh impetus AB.
Losing as often as they have must be demoralising and eventually it's just human nature to give up/stop believing that 'today will be any different' especially if the oppo score first.
I'd be tempted to send them out there with a new formation and say something along the lines of, 'Right, fresh start, fresh challenge, now go out there and shows those f******s what you're made of' We might end up on the back of a 5-3 or something daft, but there would be positives to take from it and who knows, maybe a way forward where currently there doesn't appear to be one.

 

[ancientblade]

I think the very least it would do is give the players fresh impetus AB.
Losing as often as they have must be demoralising and eventually it's just human nature to give up/stop believing that 'today will be any different' especially if the oppo score first.
I'd be tempted to send them out there with a new formation and say something along the lines of, 'Right, fresh start, fresh challenge, now go out there and shows those f******s what you're made of' We might end up on the back of a 5-3 or something daft, but there would be positives to take from it and who knows, maybe a way forward where currently there doesn't appear to be one.

for me chris saying what hes said in press conference tells me he has given up on this season like the rest of us but just to carry on playing the same system when it obviously isnt working is stubborness in the highest form possesion stats alone tell us we havent got enough control in midfield so whats the point of playing 2 strikers 451 or 541 is the way to go especially in away games for the rest of this season

 

[Bladesince59]

1-9-1 (but not McBurnie)

 

[Millhousesblade1889]

We should have changed it after the Leicester bumming. 4-4-2 /4-3-3 it just goes to show how one dimensional we were in the transfer window. We didn't sign players with an alternative formation in consideration, teams were always going to work out how we played you've got to adapt and have options

 

[SouthportBlade]

We should have changed it after the Leicester bumming. 4-4-2 /4-3-3 it just goes to show how one dimensional we were in the transfer window. We didn't sign players with an alternative formation in consideration, teams were always going to work out how we played you've got to adapt and have options

It's not just this transfer window.

Part of the problem is we built success over 4 years playing a very specific system, and recruiting players to fit that very specific system.

When you've had success this reinforces / beds in the style of play and recruitment.

An example of this is the necessity for a left footed centre half, who can overlap. This vastly limits the pool of players and has led us to recruit Kean Bryan & Jack Robinson, who lets be honest, are garbage and only are playing in the Premier League because they are left footed. Try and move to a flat back 4 and both of those players are League 1 standard at either CB or LB.

Another example is the complete lack of a winger of any kind in our squad, as above try and move to 4 across the middle or 3 up top, with 2 wide players and we simply don't have the personnel.

 

[Bladezz]

Everyone saying to change formation is basically put out the same formation