United and their customer database

[Linz]

Firstly, I work in a very junior marketing position having fallen into it really, but it's marketing just the same. I know the importance of maintaining good relationships with customers and the ways in which these can be facilitated.

Typing up all the match threads, I got curious as to how many away matches I'd gone to this year, so went to have a look at the online sales thingy... every ticket I have bought this year fits on one page... four months into the season. One match I missed through choice (Derby), two away matches were on Tuesday nights (college nights for me) and at Scunny, we were in the home end (eventually).

Now what United should be doing, is looking at my previous buying history and making an effort to ask me why the downturn is. They don't know I go to college on Tuesday nights, or that I think £27 to go to Pride Park is ridiculous. For all they know, they could be losing me and they aren't doing a thing about it. And they should be looking at everyone's buying history and finding out why they don't buy any more.

Perhaps they've moved away? Perhaps they think the prices are too expensive? Maybe they don't like what's going on with the club? Surely United should be gathering this information?

United may think they have a captive audience so don't have to bother with all this measurement and research malarky, but really, they should. Times are hard for some people and with Christmas coming up, more and more people will prioritise expenditure other than football. United seem to realise this, having moved away from the loyalty points scheme for a few fixtures but that insinuates that they think people are turning away merely due to ticket availability.

Maybe they don't care, because they don't see the money at away matches, but the figures could be indicative of greater apathy.

What I want to know is whether anyone on here has ever been approached by Sheffield United to take part in market research about anything to do with the club? Ticket prices, facilities... anything like that.

United have a customer database of what must be upwards of 30000 people but do nothing marketing-orientated to keep those people coming through the door. Seems a very big shame that a bit of research and small gestures could maximise profits for the club while galvanising support.

 

[lenners]

Fair points Linz.
United's database is likely to be far in excess of 30,000 as well - didn't Wednesday suggest they apparently had 70,000 on theirs recently which presumably includes all the distant relatives that went to Cardiff a few years back (and seemingly stayed there).
I think it's fair to say United's pr has dropped off a bit recently but then you also get the impression that some of the stuff they don't want to talk about.
A bit different from marketing I know but linked all the same.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Firstly, I work in a very junior marketing position having fallen into it really, but it's marketing just the same. I know the importance of maintaining good relationships with customers and the ways in which these can be facilitated.

Typing up all the match threads, I got curious as to how many away matches I'd gone to this year, so went to have a look at the online sales thingy... every ticket I have bought this year fits on one page... four months into the season. One match I missed through choice (Derby), two away matches were on Tuesday nights (college nights for me) and at Scunny, we were in the home end (eventually).

Now what United should be doing, is looking at my previous buying history and making an effort to ask me why the downturn is. They don't know I go to college on Tuesday nights, or that I think £27 to go to Pride Park is ridiculous. For all they know, they could be losing me and they aren't doing a thing about it. And they should be looking at everyone's buying history and finding out why they don't buy any more.

Perhaps they've moved away? Perhaps they think the prices are too expensive? Maybe they don't like what's going on with the club? Surely United should be gathering this information?

United may think they have a captive audience so don't have to bother with all this measurement and research malarky, but really, they should. Times are hard for some people and with Christmas coming up, more and more people will prioritise expenditure other than football. United seem to realise this, having moved away from the loyalty points scheme for a few fixtures but that insinuates that they think people are turning away merely due to ticket availability.

Maybe they don't care, because they don't see the money at away matches, but the figures could be indicative of greater apathy.

What I want to know is whether anyone on here has ever been approached by Sheffield United to take part in market research about anything to do with the club? Ticket prices, facilities... anything like that.

United have a customer database of what must be upwards of 30000 people but do nothing marketing-orientated to keep those people coming through the door. Seems a very big shame that a bit of research and small gestures could maximise profits for the club while galvanising support.

You'd think it'd be worth someone looking at this every now and then but I think you're right, they take the fans for granted and will continue to do so until such time as season tickets fall markedly.

The only phone calls I've ever had from the club is when I stopped Bladesworld (which could well have been driven by Premium TV rather than the club) and the odd one to see if I wanted to buy Superdraw tickets. I haven't had a season ticket for the last 2 seasons and didn't get a comment when I didn't renewn or a follow up phone call since.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Fair points Linz.
United's database is likely to be far in excess of 30,000 as well - didn't Wednesday suggest they apparently had 70,000 on theirs recently which presumably includes all the distant relatives that went to Cardiff a few years back (and seemingly stayed there).
I think it's fair to say United's pr has dropped off a bit recently but then you also get the impression that some of the stuff they don't want to talk about.
A bit different from marketing I know but linked all the same.

I seem to remember our Turry saying we had around 45,000 different ticket buyers on the dB in the Premiership season. When you look at ST holders, members, Junior Blades, infrequent visitors since it was set up a few years ago, we must have in excess of 70,000 contacts on there.

 

[Darren]

Firstly, I work in a very junior marketing position having fallen into it really, but it's marketing just the same. I know the importance of maintaining good relationships with customers and the ways in which these can be facilitated.

Typing up all the match threads, I got curious as to how many away matches I'd gone to this year, so went to have a look at the online sales thingy... every ticket I have bought this year fits on one page... four months into the season. One match I missed through choice (Derby), two away matches were on Tuesday nights (college nights for me) and at Scunny, we were in the home end (eventually).

Now what United should be doing, is looking at my previous buying history and making an effort to ask me why the downturn is. They don't know I go to college on Tuesday nights, or that I think £27 to go to Pride Park is ridiculous. For all they know, they could be losing me and they aren't doing a thing about it. And they should be looking at everyone's buying history and finding out why they don't buy any more.

Perhaps they've moved away? Perhaps they think the prices are too expensive? Maybe they don't like what's going on with the club? Surely United should be gathering this information?

United may think they have a captive audience so don't have to bother with all this measurement and research malarky, but really, they should. Times are hard for some people and with Christmas coming up, more and more people will prioritise expenditure other than football. United seem to realise this, having moved away from the loyalty points scheme for a few fixtures but that insinuates that they think people are turning away merely due to ticket availability.

Maybe they don't care, because they don't see the money at away matches, but the figures could be indicative of greater apathy.

What I want to know is whether anyone on here has ever been approached by Sheffield United to take part in market research about anything to do with the club? Ticket prices, facilities... anything like that.

United have a customer database of what must be upwards of 30000 people but do nothing marketing-orientated to keep those people coming through the door. Seems a very big shame that a bit of research and small gestures could maximise profits for the club while galvanising support.

A bit off topic, but to paraphrase Goering, when I hear the word "marketing", I reach for my revolver.

One of the things you notice when you get to my advanced age (43) is the all encompassing march of marketing over the last 30 years are so. From what I can gather, marketing involves being hassled by 8 million companies all trying to sell you stuff 99% of which you have absolutely no interest in. In the 70's, hardly anyone had heard of "marketing" and we were not all in a mad frenzy to sell things to each other.

I will go and have a lie down now.............................

 

[Linz]

One of the things you notice when you get to my advanced age (43) is the all encompassing march of marketing over the last 30 years are so. From what I can gather, marketing involves being hassled by 8 million companies all trying to sell you stuff 99% of which you have absolutely no interest in. In the 70's, hardly anyone had heard of "marketing" and we were not all in a mad frenzy to sell things to each other.

If that's the marketing you've encountered, then it isn't marketing. The definition of it is to:

"identify, anticipate and satisfy customer wants and needs profitably"

... so encompasses customer service and all that malarky too. Marketers segment and target their products to markets who are interested in what they can offer because otherwise, they are wasting their time and money.

As for the "march of marketing over the last 30 years", you'll find that the basic principles were defined in 1900 and expanded by mass industrialisation after WWII.

It's hardly a new concept. But I digress

United doesn't seem to want to be an open and marketing orientated organisation:

* As far as we know, their "customers" are not consulted on ticket prices as to what they think is reasonable. United just make them up to satisfy their own needs.

* Not everyone in the organisation is working to satisfy their customers. Issues with ticket office staff, superstore staff and even reception show this.

* They don't offer any measurable way of getting feedback from fans.

* They don't communicate with fans very well.

Call it customer service, market research or "finding out what fans want"... tis all the same.

 

[Darren]

If that's the marketing you've encountered, then it isn't marketing. The definition of it is to:

"identify, anticipate and satisfy customer wants and needs profitably"

... so encompasses customer service and all that malarky too. Marketers segment and target their products to markets who are interested in what they can offer because otherwise, they are wasting their time and money.

As for the "march of marketing over the last 30 years", you'll find that the basic principles were defined in 1900 and expanded by mass industrialisation after WWII.

It's hardly a new concept. But I digress

United doesn't seem to want to be an open and marketing orientated organisation:

* As far as we know, their "customers" are not consulted on ticket prices as to what they think is reasonable. United just make them up to satisfy their own needs.

* Not everyone in the organisation is working to satisfy their customers. Issues with ticket office staff, superstore staff and even reception show this.

* They don't offer any measurable way of getting feedback from fans.

* They don't communicate with fans very well.

Call it customer service, market research or "finding out what fans want"... tis all the same.

That may be the theory - but a large part of the practice takes the scattergun approach.

I have no doubt that marketing has existed in one form or another ever since the rise of capitalism. My point is that is that - on the basis of my personal experience - it has expanded massively over the past 30 years or so. I would be interested to see figures for the number of people employed in marketing, say, in 1975 and now.

 

[Linz]

I would be interested to see figures for the number of people employed in marketing, say, in 1975 and now.

Therein lies the problem in your definition of marketing.

In a marketing orientated organisation, everyone from the MD to the cleaners are working to serve their customers' needs and so are "employed in marketing"

 

[raul]

Noble sentiments Linz, but you'll change as you get more into it. It's not really about finding out what people want, it's more about finding how we make them want what we've got.

Take Virgin Trains, everything they say is in direct oppostion to everything they do.

They say they love their customers and work hard so they can enjoy the Virgin "experience".

They actually make them stand in corridors outside toilets that dont work for hours on end whilst charging the same as those who get to sit down.

You complain, they "thank you for your valuable feedback", but then send the same three carriage job to run from Edinburgh to Plymouth the following week/month/year.

It would be nice if Utd asked us some of the questions you mention, but then if it meant spending money (ie improving half-time catering) they'd just ignore it anyway.

Perhaps another way to make the point would be to say that the Marketing idelas are noble, but most businesses actually aren't.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

That may be the theory - but a large part of the practice takes the scattergun approach.

I have no doubt that marketing has existed in one form or another ever since the rise of capitalism. My point is that is that - on the basis of my personal experience - it has expanded massively over the past 30 years or so. I would be interested to see figures for the number of people employed in marketing, say, in 1975 and now.

Adjusted for population increases obviously....

I think it’s a fairly specious argument to make anyway. Of course there are more people involved in marketing compared to the 70’s. The mediums in which marketing can be conducted have increased massively, and the amount of marketing has increased to fill the space.

It’s like saying “I bet there are more people employed in IT, than there were in the 70’s.”

You’ll be trying to tell us shit stinks next.

 

[Darren]

Adjusted for population increases obviously....

I think it’s a fairly specious argument to make anyway. Of course there are more people involved in marketing compared to the 70’s. The mediums in which marketing can be conducted have increased massively, and the amount of marketing has increased to fill the space.

It’s like saying “I bet there are more people employed in IT, than there were in the 70’s.”

You’ll be trying to tell us shit stinks next.

I don't think your argument follows.

I agree that there are many more means of communication now than there where in 1975, but we didn't necessarily have use those means to sell stuff to each other.

 

[Linz]

Noble sentiments Linz, but you'll change as you get more into it. It's not really about finding out what people want, it's more about finding how we make them want what we've got.

The point I'm making is that United aren't even doing the latter

I think football clubs are in a unique position where it's relatively easy to get money out of fans because more often than not, the fans are quite willing to hand cash over. They feel a sense of ownership over the club so by spending, you're not only receiving your service but also, putting pennies in the club's coffers.

By adopting a marketing approach, United could increase their profits but also help the fans feel closer to the club.

If done properly, win-win.

 

[Darren]

Therein lies the problem in your definition of marketing.

In a marketing orientated organisation, everyone from the MD to the cleaners are working to serve their customers' needs and so are "employed in marketing"

Call me a scabby lefty cynic if you like, but I think the reality is that everyone involved in a marketing orientated organisation are actually working to sell their company's product. This is not necessarily the same as serving their customers' needs (cue a philosophical discussion as to how "needs" are defined).

And another thing.... the more I receive a company's "marketing", the more a company tends to irritate me and the less likely I am to buy their product. For example - when I buy a cup of tea at the train station and I am asked "if I would like a pastry with that", I am far more less likely to buy a pastry and when I ring up my bank and they ask me if I don't about their new offers on loans, a loan is then the last thing I will want.

I don't think I am alone in this curmongedly attitude

 

[Highbury_Blade]

I don't think your argument follows.

I agree that there are many more means of communication now than there where in 1975, but we didn't necessarily have use those means to sell stuff to each other.

I think it follows perfectly. What do you think has funded the phenomenal growth of the web? Advertising, that’s what. You’re living in a land of fairies and elves if you think that any mass-communication method was not going to be used for mass-marketing.

 

[boo radley]

A bit off topic, but to paraphrase Goering, when I hear the word "marketing", I reach for my revolver.

One of the things you notice when you get to my advanced age (43) is the all encompassing march of marketing over the last 30 years are so. From what I can gather, marketing involves being hassled by 8 million companies all trying to sell you stuff 99% of which you have absolutely no interest in. In the 70's, hardly anyone had heard of "marketing" and we were not all in a mad frenzy to sell things to each other.

I will go and have a lie down now.............................

Its no good Quoting people from WW2 then claiming your age is 43 then saying you've got to lay down. Come on Darren truth about your age please?
Besides you now bringing up 1975, 30 years after WW2.I suppose you took Flashing Blades piece on Hitler was a wendie fan as proof and are just waiting for the next herman to be dug up as further proof

 

[Darren]

I think it follows perfectly. What do you think has funded the phenomenal growth of the web? Advertising, that’s what. You’re living in a land of fairies and elves if you think that any mass-communication method was not going to be used for mass-marketing.

You're probably right.

I don't so much object to, as it were, passive advertising on the internet, newpapers etc which can easily be ignored, but the sort of active intrusive marketing that we do get a lot more of now than you did 30 years. To go back to me example above, if you wanted a cup of tea at the station in 1975, you got a cup of tea and that was it. Staff were not instructed, at the peril of losing their jobs, that they must try to get every customer to buy something beyond what they have asked for. For fuck's sake, the pastries are all there in front of me, if I want one, I will ask for one.

Time for another lie down I think...

 

[Highbury_Blade]

You're probably right.

I don't so much object to, as it were, passive advertising on the internet, newpapers etc which can easily be ignored, but the sort of active intrusive marketing that we do get a lot more of now than you did 30 years. To go back to me example above, if you wanted a cup of tea at the station in 1975, you got a cup of tea and that was it. Staff were not instructed, at the peril of losing their jobs, that they must try to get every customer to buy something beyond what they have asked for. For fuck's sake, the pastries are all there in front of me, if I want one, I will ask for one.

Time for another lie down I think...

The example you give of ‘bolt-on’ or (shudder) incremental selling is a result of the relentless need for growth in the business world. 30 years ago that stall could well have been owned by a local businessman, who as long as they were making the money to live on, would probably be happy. Now that stall is likely to be owned by a franchise, which in itself is likely to be owned by a multi-national.

Marketing is merely a symptom, not the cause, of a much greater malaise. Unless you think that rampant global capitalism is a good thing, which it’s worth noting we wouldn’t be having this discussion on this board without it….

 

[Darren]

The example you give of ‘bolt-on’ or (shudder) incremental selling is a result of the relentless need for growth in the business world. 30 years ago that stall could well have been owned by a local businessman, who as long as they were making the money to live on, would probably be happy. Now that stall is likely to be owned by a franchise, which in itself is likely to be owned by a multi-national.

Marketing is merely a symptom, not the cause, of a much greater malaise. Unless you think that rampant global capitalism is a good thing, which it’s worth noting we wouldn’t be having this discussion on this board without it….

Asking me if I think rampant global capitalism is a good thing is rather like asking if the Pope thinks atheism is a good thing

I don't disagree with your analysis but I am not sure that the approach the evil capitalists take to marketing is even in their short term interest. Do they really make that much more from the sale of extra pastries than they do from losing the custom of people like me whom they piss off?

 

[boo radley]

Asking me if I think rampant global capitalism is a good thing is rather like asking if the Pope thinks atheism is a good thing

I don't disagree with your analysis but I am not sure that the approach the evil capitalists take to marketing is even in their short term interest. Do they really make that much more from the sale of extra pastries than they do from losing the custom of people like me whom they piss off?

Your old age and cynical attitude- Victor meldrew?

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Asking me if I think rampant global capitalism is a good thing is rather like asking if the Pope thinks atheism is a good thing

I don't disagree with your analysis but I am not sure that the approach the evil capitalists take to marketing is even in their short term interest. Do they really make that much more from the sale of extra pastries than they do from losing the custom of people like me whom they piss off?

In this country at least, all middle-management in retail gives a shit about is beating sales targets from the previous year so they can meet the predictions set. If they can’t beat sales targets then they look at other methods of increasing profit (usually cutting expenditure). If neither of those happens then you’re looking at investors pulling out. So yes, retail capitalism in this country is that short-term in its’ thinking.

The only way they would stop asking you if you wanted another pastry, is if through market research (another function of marketing), they found this was driving customers away.

The pub group that I worked for was marketed towards ABC1’s and the market research indicated that our customers wouldn’t like the upselling approach. But as times get tough, companies will do anything to increase turnover to get them through the lean times

 

[Darren]

In this country at least, all middle-management in retail gives a shit about is beating sales targets from the previous year so they can meet the predictions set. If they can’t beat sales targets then they look at other methods of increasing profit (usually cutting expenditure). If neither of those happens then you’re looking at investors pulling out. So yes, retail capitalism in this country is that short-term in its’ thinking.

The only way they would stop asking you if you wanted another pastry, is if through market research (another function of marketing), they found this was driving customers away.

The pub group that I worked for was marketed towards ABC1’s and the market research indicated that our customers wouldn’t like the upselling approach. But as times get tough, companies will do anything to increase turnover to get them through the lean times

Interesting. So the bottom line is that companies will hassle the people with no money as upselling tends to work with them, whilst tending the leave the people with money (relatively) alone as it doesn't work with them.

So why do I (falling squarely within the ABC1 demographic) get hassled all the time? Do I just frequent downmarket outlets

 

[Worksop II]

I think marketing at Bramall Lane is best summed up by the episode 3-4 years ago.

Someone in the higher echelons of SUFC has/had a box at Old Trafford and were using SUFC.co.uk to advertise the fact and offering it for MUFC games.

Says it all really.

 

[Grecian2000]

Right back to the top.

I think you have it spot on Linz that the club aren't too fussed about your declining away attendance because their isn't any money in it for them.

Last season I was giving and old feller a lift down on a regular basis. He was due to have a new knee during the summer and decided not to renew his ST. The club did contact him to a) remind him he hadn't renewed and the deadline was approaching and b) ask him why after the deadline had passed and he hadn't renewed.

 

[Revolution]

So why do I (falling squarely within the ABC1 demographic) get hassled all the time? Do I just frequent downmarket outlets

If the outlets in question are cafes and similar establishments in London, yes!

Seriously, I get this "would you like (X) with that?" at one of the places where I go to buy my lunch. I also get it when I call for a takeaway, or in a fast food restaurant. I assume this is because:

- it costs nothing to ask
- some people will buy the suggested product.
- some places who ask this will have people coming in irrespective of how annoying they are, because of convenience/a captive market (your station cafe, my sandwich shop).

It's an increased level of marketing, sure. I find it annoying. I assume some people must not mind it, and it must work - otherwise people would not do it.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Interesting. So the bottom line is that companies will hassle the people with no money as upselling tends to work with them, whilst tending the leave the people with money (relatively) alone as it doesn't work with them.

So why do I (falling squarely within the ABC1 demographic) get hassled all the time? Do I just frequent downmarket outlets

Well a pub is much different to a station cafe, due to some of the reasons Revolution mentioned above.

I would quickly find a new local if the management at mine tried to sell me a packet of crisps with every drink. They do however try to get me to have a dessert every time i pop in for Sausage & Mash.

 

[Darren]

So why do I (falling squarely within the ABC1 demographic) get hassled all the time? Do I just frequent downmarket outlets

If the outlets in question are cafes and similar establishments in London, yes!

Seriously, I get this "would you like (X) with that?" at one of the places where I go to buy my lunch. I also get it when I call for a takeaway, or in a fast food restaurant. I assume this is because:

- it costs nothing to ask
- some people will buy the suggested product.
- some places who ask this will have people coming in irrespective of how annoying they are, because of convenience/a captive market (your station cafe, my sandwich shop).

It's an increased level of marketing, sure. I find it annoying. I assume some people must not mind it, and it must work - otherwise people would not do it.

Fair enough. Its just the monumental stupidity of the question that gets me. I am well aware that the establishment sells x product because it is there in front of me. If I wanted it, I would ask for it. I am not going to think "wow, a station cafe that sells pastries! how innovative, I never thought that would happen, give me 37 of your beautiful Danishes now".

No 27 in the list of "aspects of modern life that annoy me". Part of an ongoing season...

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Fair enough. Its just the monumental stupidity of the question that gets me. I am well aware that the establishment sells x product because it is there in front of me. If I wanted it, I would ask for it. I am not going to think "wow, a station cafe that sells pastries! how innovative, I never thought that would happen, give me 37 of your beautiful Danishes now".

No 27 in the list of "aspects of modern life that annoy me". Part of an ongoing season...

As you probably well know, the vast majority of branded food outlets participate in some form of mystery shopper programme(program? Can never remember which it is - which i should do since i am a programmer...). Most of these questions will be about the customer experience, but there will usually be a "Did your server/Waitress attempt to upsell a product during your visit".

I use upsell as a catch-all term. Upselling is the art of upgrading you from 6-inches to 12 inches at Harmony Subway.

Bolt-on or incremental sales is selling you an additional product with your purchase. Ie: extended guarantees, onion rings, lube.....

 

[DuncDisorderly]

Take Virgin Trains, everything they say is in direct oppostion to everything they do.

Shortly after Virgin Trains had taken over the Cross Country franchise, they had so many complaints that they had to buy a computer based automated workflow system just to try and cope with it. Then one day, the unthinkable happened. They got a letter complimenting them on their service. Unfortunately, no one had considered this as an option, so after processing, the system output a letter of apology and a £20 refund...

Actually, having all the data does not in itself do much for you. Neither does having the reports of who has stopped buying or has started or whatever. You need the people behind the scenes to be able to make it happen, stuffing envelopes and making calls, and you also need the budget. A mailout to every name of say 45,000 on the database is about a 80p-£1 a go. If United don't do this, then they are only like 99.99% of other businesses.

Two of the little Disorderly's are Junior Blades, and they get some marketing from the club about every six or eight weeks. They are always pleased to get something, even if it is useless to us...

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Actually, having all the data does not in itself do much for you. Neither does having the reports of who has stopped buying or has started or whatever. You need the people behind the scenes to be able to make it happen, stuffing envelopes and making calls, and you also need the budget. A mailout to every name of say 45,000 on the database is about a 80p-£1 a go. If United don't do this, then they are only like 99.99% of other businesses.

Simple rule of database marketing - unless it makes money, do nowt.

United's database is tiny compared with the big hitters of DM, or even the small players whose businesses depend on it - they won't have someone working on it full time and I very much doubt they have even the most basic analytical software to identify changes in behaviour - it just isn't worth it for what it would make for them.

I met with the guy who runs all of Crystal Palace's marketing a few weeks ago - United are regarded as streets ahead of the rest by their peers in the football league. Outside of attendance and merchandise the only sources of income are sponsorship, corporate hospitality and increasing the use of physical assets - i.e. office space, corporate boxes, land. We've covered that aplenty over the last couple of years.

The value that behaviour analysis and customer insight could bring to all but the Manchester Uniteds and Arsenals is next to nothing when set aside the costs of doing it. It would only make sense if they all pooled all of their data and got someone like me to turn it into ready cash for them (and me).

Common courtesy and common sense when dealing with your paying public - that's another matter. Costs nothing but always has a bearing on repeat custom.

Delivering what the customer wants - doesn't take a survey and several blue-sky meetings for us - success! With a European tour! With fancy football! And decent beer!

 

[Worksop II]

Simple rule of database marketing - unless it makes money, do nowt.

United's database is tiny compared with the big hitters of DM, or even the small players whose businesses depend on it - they won't have someone working on it full time and I very much doubt they have even the most basic analytical software to identify changes in behaviour - it just isn't worth it for what it would make for them.

I met with the guy who runs all of Crystal Palace's marketing a few weeks ago - United are regarded as streets ahead of the rest by their peers in the football league. Outside of attendance and merchandise the only sources of income are sponsorship, corporate hospitality and increasing the use of physical assets - i.e. office space, corporate boxes, land. We've covered that aplenty over the last couple of years.

The value that behaviour analysis and customer insight could bring to all but the Manchester Uniteds and Arsenals is next to nothing when set aside the costs of doing it. It would only make sense if they all pooled all of their data and got someone like me to turn it into ready cash for them (and me).

Common courtesy and common sense when dealing with your paying public - that's another matter. Costs nothing but always has a bearing on repeat custom.

Delivering what the customer wants - doesn't take a survey and several blue-sky meetings for us - success! With a European tour! With fancy football! And decent beer!

We know United take a risk when they buy a block of away tickets, the home club want paying for them all.

It might be interesting if the home club sold us our away tickets, no risk for the away club, and the home club can offer deals depending on whether its a midweek game, relegation cruncher etc etc