United 0 Barnsley 1 - report

[Hartley Hare]

Amazing what a difference one result makes. If we'd have won we'd have been 3rd and right in the mix for automatic

That fact is startling given how much over reaction there has been to yesterday's result.

We lost a game, which listening to the commentary, we should have won, or at least not lost. The season is barely one third complete and many on here have written us off already.

Let's see where we are come the new year.

HH

 

[JohnDenver]

Let's see where we are come the new year.

And let's see who we've got up front too.

 

[Bergen Blade]

For me the problem was crossing into the box, if there'd been a Deane or Shipperley on the back stick JCRs crosses would have been brilliant, however there wasn't and they looked awful. Murphy's and the two full backs crosses were just as ineffective, .

Agree, there will be games where our wingers are unable to sprint past their full backs and cross low for someone to smash in. We couldn't counter attack at all yesterday. Especially when teams are defending deep with plenty of men back our wide players will have to hit deeper, more hopeful crosses. But if we don't have any aerial targets they'll usually be in vain.

One of the JCR crosses just escaped Baxter. If that had been Higdon, he may well have nodded it in, and if Murphy had been trying to get up to the back post he may also have connected before the ball bounced out. It was Clough's plan that Basham should be the aerial threat when we played without a target man, but that idea has also been scrapped now.

 

[OllyBlade]

Agree, there will be games where our wingers are unable to sprint past their full backs and cross low for someone to smash in. We couldn't counter attack at all yesterday. Especially when teams are defending deep with plenty of men back our wide players will have to hit deeper, more hopeful crosses. But if we don't have any aerial targets they'll usually be in vain.

One of the JCR crosses just escaped Baxter. If that had been Higdon, he may well have nodded it in, and if Murphy had been trying to get up to the back post he may also have connected before the ball bounced out. It was Clough's plan that Basham should be the aerial threat when we played without a target man, but that idea has also been scrapped now.

It's not like we don't know teams will sit deep at Bramall Lane. Clough is tactically inept.

 

[Bergen Blade]

We dominated the whole match, more or less, possession wise. It's our final ball ( or options for it) that are always lacking.

The only difference between yesterday and most other performances was a couple of goals, which inevitably come late on after we've abandoned our initial setup.

UTB

I thought almost all our midfield/forward players struggled with their touch and rhythm, so many times they failed to control the ball and it went out for a throw in. A few times Murphy and JCR looked to almost have the beating of their men, and would normally at least win a corner, but instead the ball ricocheted off them and out for a goal kick.

 

[LSF]

It's not like we don't know teams will sit deep at Bramall Lane. Clough is tactically inept.

Olly, with all due respect etc etc, what does 'tactically inept' actually mean?
Does it means. NC has been fooling the football industry all these years and in fact knows fuck all. about the game? I'm interested to know because I wouldn't know if a bloke who's worked in an industry for 30 years was inept or not, especially if my experience in the self same industry was zero!

 

[sitwell]

It's not like we don't know teams will sit deep at Bramall Lane. Clough is tactically inept.

Has he just fluked the domination of virtually every game this season ,and the last 4 wins in a row. Did tactics not win at West ham ,Villa and Fulham ,those premiership managers just let it happen ? Tactically inept ? Really ?

 

[alcoblade]

That fact is startling given how much over reaction there has been to yesterday's result.

We lost a game, which listening to the commentary, we should have won, or at least not lost. The season is barely one third complete and many on here have written us off already.

Let's see where we are come the new year.

HH

It's not realistic for fans to not comment until the new year though. We're sat 8th in the 3rd duvision, and not through bad look. There's a lot right, and a lot wrong.

I can tell you that there's all lot more to it than "it sounds like we should have won yesterday".

UTB

 

[metalblade]

I think what OllyBlade is saying is when teams sit deep Clough is very slow to change things around to try to break them down in other words when teams do to us what we have done so succesfully away from home in sitting back and grabbing a goal on the break that he hasn't got a clue.

 

[Guesty]

I hate '(It sounds like) we should have won'. We missed chances and failed to mark the opposition's Centre Forward at a corner. Do people think these things are randomly generated? Hell no. That's not bad luck, it is incompetence. Barring terrible referring decisions (which there weren't), teams lose because they failed to do something as well as the opposition. On Saturday those things were finishing and defending, fairly key skills for a football team, wouldn't you say?

 

[OllyBlade]

Olly, with all due respect etc etc, what does 'tactically inept' actually mean?
Does it means. NC has been fooling the football industry all these years and in fact knows fuck all. about the game? I'm interested to know because I wouldn't know if a bloke who's worked in an industry for 30 years was inept or not, especially if my experience in the self same industry was zero!

Has he just fluked the domination of virtually every game this season ,and the last 4 wins in a row. Did tactics not win at West ham ,Villa and Fulham ,those premiership managers just let it happen ? Tactically inept ? Really ?

No I stand by what I said, or at least my right to have that opinion. He goes into games with a strategy for how the team will play, which is of course informed by his experience working with the players and his many years of experience in the game (experience I lack obviously). Sometimes, this strategy works very well and we can dominate games or manage to keep it tight and fend off stronger opponents.. In situations where it isn't working, he rarely changes anything decisively other than by doing the obvious - chucking on a striker, etc. There is a difference between strategy (how he sets the team up and how he tells them to play before the match) and tactical decisions during the match, which he is slow to implement.

In regards to your point LSF , if you go to the cinema it is usually apparent if the filmmaker has little talent. Similarly at a concert, if someone is singing off-key you are able to hear it. I don't think football management should be cordoned off beyond mortal understanding. Why talk about it at all if we just have to trust they know what they are doing?

Perhaps inept was too strong; I think Clough has his strengths as a manager but tactical decisions based on individual games is not one of them.

 

[sitwell]

then how come we have managed to come from behind in so many games ,not just to draw but to win in the last 10 minutes ? Your view doesn't hold any water on this point alone.

 

[OllyBlade]

then how come we have managed to come from behind in so many games ,not just to draw but to win in the last 10 minutes ? Your view doesn't hold any water on this point alone.

Depends what you attribute the late goals to. I'd put it down to fitness and team spirit, things that it seems Clough is very good at instilling, rather than any tactical changes.

 

[LSF]

In regards to your point LSF , if you go to the cinema it is usually apparent if the filmmaker has little talent. Similarly at a concert, if someone is singing off-key you are able to hear it. I don't think football management should be cordoned off beyond mortal understanding. Why talk about it at all if we just have to trust they know what they are doing?

Perhaps inept was too strong; I think Clough has his strengths as a manager but tactical decisions based on individual games is not one of them.

Good answer, however, there are many nuances which make up the decisions a manager may take before and during a game to influence its outcome. For those decisions to work, firstly the players have to understand and carry out those instructions, secondly, the opposition react to any tactical changes accordingly and again it is down to the players and their ability to perform and minimise mistakes.
I'm sure this scenario is acting out before our eyes every game and most of the time we don't realise it. Sometimes I try to follow the logic but it goes beyond my understanding and at that point I never think, "Clough, Warnock, Wilson or whoever, hasn't got a clue", quite simply, because they have way more clue than I'll ever have and it would be arrogant of me to think otherwise.
I usually give up at that point and try and enjoy what is taking place, but when we do lose, blaming the manager and his tactics is the easy way out.
Blame culture- I fucking hate it!

 

[Hague Blade]

I don't know who the pony-tailed, two bob Ibrahamovic was in the Barnsley midfield, but he looked a decent player. Faded a bit second half, but he had one or two lovely touches - if I'm honest, I thought he seemed to have more about him than any of our creative players...

 

[metalblade]

then how come we have managed to come from behind in so many games ,not just to draw but to win in the last 10 minutes ? Your view doesn't hold any water on this point alone.

I think you have just answered your own question, when we are forced into attacking and chasing the game we as a team have the ability to create and score goals makes you wonder why we don't play with a striker and do it from the first minute seeing as Nigel is such a good manager.

 

[LSF]

I don't know who the pony-tailed, two bob Ibrahamovic was in the Barnsley midfield, but he looked a decent player. Faded a bit second half, but he had one or two lovely touches - if I'm honest, I thought he seemed to have more about him than any of our creative players...

Yes, I noticed him too, along with Winnall he was their stand out player. Its the lad on loan from Fulham whose name escapes me just now.

 

[grafikhaus]

Yes, I noticed him too, along with Winnall he was their stand out player. Its the lad on loan from Fulham whose name escapes me just now.

'tis Ryan Williams. He's Australian but, at 5' 8" is clearly too tall for our team.

 

[Darthblade]

Howard 7/10- Had little to do. One low save from a Cole shot which was relatively comfortable. Little chance on the header.

Alcock 6.5/10 – Did alright defensively apart from a few moments when he dithered second half and they nearly got in. Not up against and out and out winger as they played with players tucked in but did what he had to. Did not get forward that much though.

Harris 7/10 – Defensively he was also ok with few mistakes and did the basics well. He got forward more than Alcock but like the rest his final ball was quite poor. He overplayed many (to keeper) or hit the first man too much. Put a few decent ones in at the end but noone near them. Had one shot blocked.

McCarthy 7/10 – Did a decent job on the front two and I felt Winnall only got away from him once in the first half. At times his lack of pace shows up but he is a decent defender at this level who we should look to retain.

McEveley 7/10 – Decent. At times seemed at full stretch and positionally often was 2 yards behind the others meaning we did not keep a high enough line. However maybe due to Cole’s pace he was told to play a bit deeper. Why was Basham dropped after being the best player last week?

Wallace 6/10 – We did not have the same level of control as we had last week at Crewe and Wallace’s performance was a reason for that. Today he was not in the game much and I felt did not win as much of the ball as he has been doing against a tougher midfield. When he had it his passing was mixed today and did not have the same influence. Came off second half.

Doyle 6/10 –As above really. I felt we did well to start the game winning the key middle part of the field but as the game progressed we lost the battle and had less and less of the ball. He often did not seem to know who he was marking. If you look at the goal whether it was his man or not (debatable) he is the one nearest/marking Winnall and just lets him jump and over powers him. Maybe the bigger players they had meant he had to mark a bigger player but it was poor. This was the same against Orient when he lost his man for the free header at the end.

Murphy 5.5/10 – Poor today. I felt both our wingers were completely ineffective as were all our attacking threats. He came inside time after time and got bottled out of it. He never went round the back and as a result this just compressed the play. Had one run early on and you thought he had the beating of full back but then the rest of the game I barely remember him being a threat.

Campbell Ryce 4/10 – Thought he was even worse than Murphy. He saw lots and lots of the ball but his final pass/cross was wretched. He put them too long, hit the front man, failed to even get the ball in or stumbled and lost it. He managed to find every single way possible not to put a decent cross in. Did not beat his man either that much and the one occasion he did he failed to get the ball in. Again. Surprised he last as long as he did before he came off.

Scougall 6/10 – Worked hard and tried to get into areas and pockets and had a few runs into the final third (missed a good chance) and was involved in a few of our decent early moves. Like most games this season he faded really badly though and I can’t recall him touching the ball much at all second half. Ended up back in the midfield two when Doyle went off but still did not get involved much. Been a big step back for him this season from player I saw last year.

Baxter 4.5/10 – Like last week a really poor performance. The tactics, formation and poor play up to the final third do not help of course but I expect more from a so called talented footballer. He did not hold it up, did not chase lost causes and idled around for most of the game without even looking remotely dangerous. He is not a striker and if people are calling for 2 up top then unsure he can play as either of those as does not offer hold up or pace. Not sure where his best position is or if he has one. If he lost some weight and gained some motivation and mobility he could be better as a central midfielder but we would get overrun if he played there.

Subs-

McNulty – Missed a really good headed chance when he came on. Looked busy but other than that chance did not have any other opportunities. Does need a run of games to allow him to develop and get some level of consistency. Unsure why Baxter is getting preferred to him.

Flynn – Brought on too late and when he was on had one run across the middle when he should have crossed it and little else really but given too late (less than 10) to make an impact.

Porter – A rare Porter appearance. He again should have come on earlier but Clough’s ridiculously late substitutions give players little chance to get into games. He controlled one long ball well but then gave it straight away. I felt with longer time up front with McNulty we may have been more of a threat with his knock downs.

Manager rating : Clough 4/10 – A bad day at the office as former United manager Wilson (who was ironically billed as the original Mr Negative – second season) got the upper hand. Clough persisted with one up top (even when losing) and we looked completely powder puff all afternoon. He strangely left Basham out and changed the side around again. He kept players on who had been awful (Campbell Ryce and Baxter) way too long and left his subs too late yet again. We did not have a plan B and kept the same shape and formation most of the game. This led to little chances of note being created and it was pretty dire to watch from an attacking point of view. We really were clueless at times but even more frustrating is he did not change it. He is a very stubborn manager who sticks to his principles but this inflexibility allied to not having great front men aswell will cost us any chance of promotion this season and ultimately will cost him his job longer term (big call but I believe that). He has to adapt and realise we are the biggest club in the league in front of 24,000+ people at home and he is playing effectively without any strikers (Baxter often was back in midfield). He can dress it up all he wants but that is unacceptable to me. Most weeks we create 3 or 4 chances and that is it. We do not concede many at the other end but we will not go up hoping to nick games 1-0 every week. It will not work. Sure we will beat dross like Yeovil and Crewe but against the better teams it will not work (Barnsley are not eve one of better teams).

Officials – Scott Mathieson has had some odd games down at the Lane but was fine today. Barnsley were a little strong arm at times but nothing that was over the top and were stronger in individual battles. The officials did not have many big calls to make (one half hearted spot kick appeal on Murphy). He booked the keeper for time wasting (maybe could have earlier) but I barely noticed them all game. That is usually a good sign.

Crowd – Impressive following from Barnsley (around 3,000) and they were quite noisy helped by getting the goal and the eventual win (unsure why they did not just put them all in one tier though – seemed odd to have them split up). United fans got behind the side early but noise faded after the break and it was more frustration than anything as we struggled to carve out a chance. The club are extremely fortunate to get the crowds they get when watching such mediocre play as the fans had to ensure today and sadly coming back to it again, such negative tactics and approach.

Agree with you mostly here although I would have given Cloughie 2/10 as he got the team selection, tactics and substitutions wrong on Sat.

Would have given:

Alcock 5/10
Harris 8/10
McEvely 8/10 as I thought the latter 2 were our best players
Wallace 5/10 ineffective - no influence
Scougal 4/10 ineffective - no influence and pushed off the ball too easily
Baxter 3/10 played 1 good pass all game - other than that he was a spectator
McNulty not on long enough to rate but I would fine him a weeks wages for missing a GILT EDGED chance.

Agree with your season assessment though - we're going nowhere with this squad as it is and these tactics and that's not a knee jerk reaction to the poor performance on Saturday; I've been saying it for weeks.
UTB & FTP

 

[Darthblade]

'tis Ryan Williams. He's Australian but, at 5' 8" is clearly too tall for our team.

View attachment 9749

Correct ..... he's way too big for us. We are building to be the smallest, most lightweight team in the Division, playing lovely football until the players are shoved ( or wrestled ) to the ground and guess what ? The shit referees at this level DO NOT give free kicks for that ( eg Scougal at Bradford )

We surely must be able to find some players who can "look after themselves" but still have some pace and can play decent football !!??!!

Otherwise we can look forward to a long run of League 1 .....
UTB & FTP

 

[Bergen Blade]

No I stand by what I said, or at least my right to have that opinion. He goes into games with a strategy for how the team will play, which is of course informed by his experience working with the players and his many years of experience in the game (experience I lack obviously). Sometimes, this strategy works very well and we can dominate games or manage to keep it tight and fend off stronger opponents.. In situations where it isn't working, he rarely changes anything decisively other than by doing the obvious - chucking on a striker, etc. There is a difference between strategy (how he sets the team up and how he tells them to play before the match) and tactical decisions during the match, which he is slow to implement.

In regards to your point LSF , if you go to the cinema it is usually apparent if the filmmaker has little talent. Similarly at a concert, if someone is singing off-key you are able to hear it. I don't think football management should be cordoned off beyond mortal understanding. Why talk about it at all if we just have to trust they know what they are doing?

Perhaps inept was too strong; I think Clough has his strengths as a manager but tactical decisions based on individual games is not one of them.

I don't think we've ever had a manager who makes as many tweaks during games, although there were probably more last season. It is illustrated by our fans often getting our exact formation wrong.

Some of the changes are made between matches as well, and Clough clearly puts a lot of thought into planning the best way to set up before each game. When that is done, I think he's very patient and reluctant to making more changes than the pre-planned tweaks that his many versatile players allows him to make. I am also sometimes frustrated that he delays his substitutions so much.

I think it comes down to being confident in his original plan though, and a belief that the players can get it right even if they have struggled to get going. Despite what he says in interviews I think he sees when things haven't worked well. He may be defensive of the plan post match, but then there are often a few changes for the next match.

 

[blade too long]

terrific following

 

[OllyBlade]

I don't think we've ever had a manager who makes as many tweaks during games, although there were probably more last season. It is illustrated by our fans often getting our exact formation wrong.

Some of the changes are made between matches as well, and Clough clearly puts a lot of thought into planning the best way to set up before each game. When that is done, I think he's very patient and reluctant to making more changes than the pre-planned tweaks that his many versatile players allows him to make. I am also sometimes frustrated that he delays his substitutions so much.

I think it comes down to being confident in his original plan though, and a belief that the players can get it right even if they have struggled to get going. Despite what he says in interviews I think he sees when things haven't worked well. He may be defensive of the plan post match, but then there are often a few changes for the next match.

Ok maybe you're right! To me the tweaks don't seem very decisive. I was annoyed vs Bradford the other week that no change was made when we got the man advantage. I'd have liked to see a ruthless decision made, but we kept on the same. In the end it took a really good long range goal to break the deadlock. In other games having patience has seen us fall too far behind. 1-0 down at half time vs Swindon, when it could have been much worse, there should have been a substitution or 2 before the 2nd half. Lo and behold we are 3-0 down. You have a point that it is the substitutions that most frustrate.

I agree with you about him changing things up between games, and like that it has kept much of the squad fresh. But to go back to why I made my initial over-zealous contribution: the approach to home games. We have lost 2 home fixtures, and drawn 1, out of 7. Continuing that trend we would lose 6-7 home games, which is awful. We haven't scored more than 2 goals at home. Even last season we had managed that by this stage. We know that teams may sit deep at bramall lane, yet have no response to that problem other than more of the same.

 

[bartman]

McNulty not on long enough to rate but I would fine him a weeks wages for missing a GILT EDGED chance.


UTB & FTP

Including injury time he had 35 minutes. Long enough to make an impression on the game which unfortunately he didn't. However,I don't think the tactics we employed after we scored helped (I would have brought on McNulty,Porter and Flynn for Scougill,JCR and Baxter and gone more direct as they were always going to sit deep)