Substituting the substitute

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davetheblade
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Interesting article here about the fallout from Duncan Ferguson substituting Moise Kean having brought him on as sub. Reminds me of when Howard Kendall twice subbed Petr Katchouro having brought him on as sub. Must be an Everton thing. I always thought it can't have done Katchouro's confidence much good.

Moise Kean: Substituting the substitute nothing personal, says Everton boss Duncan Ferguson - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50802290
 

He says it was nothing personal so why didn’t he take another attacker off then? Moise Kean will be happy he’s fucked off.
 
It's a bit of a dick move. He said it wasnt personal and that he needed to sub a striker to waste time. But why not just sub someone else?

I reckon he's got it in for him, he didn't even gesture to him when he came off. Considering DF's been replaced it seemed like he knew he had nothing to lose so he chose to bully the one he didn't like because he could.
 
Ferguson is trying to create a culture of disciplined passion, my way or the highway. His dealings with Keane were a clear demonstration of that to all of his players. The clinical action was similar, but more public, to the one strike and you’re out conversation that a certain Mr Duffy had earlier this year.

Ferguson’s only chance of the job was to make a big impact immediately. I don’t think that he has much of a chance now, but if he had won that match and then a couple more his chances would have been greatly enhanced.

Professional sport is a ruthless game - that’s why there are contracts and agents to provide some sort of protection.
 
Cheets said:
Interesting article here about the fallout from Duncan Ferguson substituting Moise Kean having brought him on as sub. Reminds me of when Howard Kendall twice subbed Petr Katchouro having brought him on as sub. Must be an Everton thing. I always thought it can't have done Katchouro's confidence much good.

Moise Kean: Substituting the substitute nothing personal, says Everton boss Duncan Ferguson - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50802290
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If I remember rightly it was also Katchouro’s home debut (maybe actual debut) in the famous 4-4 draw with Birmingham, so doubly embarrassing for the player.
 
LoughboroBlade said:
If I remember rightly it was also Katchouro’s home debut (maybe actual debut) in the famous 4-4 draw with Birmingham, so doubly embarrassing for the player.
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His debut was the opening day of the season, a defeat at Reading. I can see why HK took him off but I don't think it did much for Katchouro's confidence.
 
Freddy Dunning-Kruger said:
Maybe he thought Kean was playing badly / not trying etc - and thought it better to make up an excuse rather than publicly slag off the player?
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Publicly slag him? He did that by bringing him off only 18 minutes after bringing him on, you don’t get more public than that. I never had big Dunc down as a beating about the bush type of bloke, maybe I was wrong?

Wilder wouldn’t fuck about in an interview like that, he’d have said if a player wasn’t listening to instructions, ignoring him or not doing his job, he’d make sure it wouldn’t happen again but I’m sure the player would get another chance to redeem him self one way or another.
 
Spackman came on as sub at home to WBA in April 1997. Got booed by our fans everytime he touched the ball. 10 or 15 minutes later Kendall decided to substitute Spackman! We lost 2-1
 
I was listening to an interview with Alan Curbishly recently where talked about subbing a sub when he was at Charlton. He said it was a huge mistake that he regretted, and that the player asked for a transfer immediately. I can’t see Kean being at Everton much longer.
 
I think the first player this happened to was Peter Duffield, who came on and then went off again in the 2-2 draw at Fulham in our 1988-9 promotion season.
 

wizadry said:
Publicly slag him? He did that by bringing him off only 18 minutes after bringing him on, you don’t get more public than that. I never had big Dunc down as a beating about the bush type of bloke, maybe I was wrong?

Wilder wouldn’t fuck about in an interview like that, he’d have said if a player wasn’t listening to instructions, ignoring him or not doing his job, he’d make sure it wouldn’t happen again but I’m sure the player would get another chance to redeem him self one way or another.
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I said this too. He clearly wasn't doing what Ferguson had asked and he should have just said that after the game.
 
Just been a decent piece on sky sports showing why it might have happened. He went straight onto the wrong wing, continually failed to track back and kept giving the ball away. I'm no fan of Ferguson's but his present roll is to get as many points as possible for EFC, not to worry about hurting players feelings. It used to be a mans game. Deal with it, learn from it and do better next time.
 
Ferguson has never managed before, never felt the pressure of trying to hold on for a point at OT. Is it really surprising that he makes a mistake? It appeared to be a heat of the moment thing and then after, he probably realised he’d been a bit harsh and didn’t want to compound it by hanging Kean out to dry.
Wilder probably made loads of mistakes when he was starting out but he did them at Halifax, where few people noticed. You don’t just become a good manager overnight, you have to learn.
 
BushBlade said:
Ferguson has never managed before, never felt the pressure of trying to hold on for a point at OT. Is it really surprising that he makes a mistake? It appeared to be a heat of the moment thing and then after, he probably realised he’d been a bit harsh and didn’t want to compound it by hanging Kean out to dry.
Wilder probably made loads of mistakes when he was starting out but he did them at Halifax, where few people noticed. You don’t just become a good manager overnight, you have to learn.
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Can't believe Ferguson didn't elbow him as he came off the pitch he was very good at that😊
 
Silent Blade said:
Spackman came on as sub at home to WBA in April 1997. Got booed by our fans everytime he touched the ball. 10 or 15 minutes later Kendall decided to substitute Spackman! We lost 2-1
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His nickname was "Boo". Nigel "Boo" Spackman. Our fans really didn't like him very much as a player. I thought he got us playing some great football as a manager though - although he probably continued where Howard Kendall had left off.

We've had a few of those ex-big name pro's down the years. Not many hit it off here. Peter Withe, Phil Thompson, Nigel Spackman, Ian Rush, Stewart Houston. I'm sure there are many others?

I liked the ex Villa trio of McNaught, Mortimer and Cowans though. And Paul McGrath of course - even though he was a cripple when we signed him.
 
Cheets said:
Was he injured or was it tactical?
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I’m not sure. He came on for Mark Todd, played 15 mins, and then Dane Whitehouse came on for him. If he was injured it wasn’t bad as he played as a sub the next game. United came back twice to equalise but Bassett wasn’t one to batten down the hatches so maybe he took a knock.

the other game Katchuro got subbed after coming on was the 1-3 home defeat v Ipswich. He looked totally out of his depth at that time, but he was transformed after his late winner at Wolves. His sudden uptick I form after that goal was amazing. Something just clicked. Mind you, his career at the Lane was full of peaks and troughs.
 
Cerberus Blade said:
His nickname was "Boo". Nigel "Boo" Spackman. Our fans really didn't like him very much as a player. I thought he got us playing some great football as a manager though - although he probably continued where Howard Kendall had left off.

We've had a few of those ex-big name pro's down the years. Not many hit it off here. Peter Withe, Phil Thompson, Nigel Spackman, Ian Rush, Stewart Houston. I'm sure there are many others?

I liked the ex Villa trio of McNaught, Mortimer and Cowans though. And Paul McGrath of course - even though he was a cripple when we signed him.
How could you forget Dean Saunders with that cheeky throw in off the keepers back and slotted the ball into an empty net... DEANO DEANO ..oooops wrong DEANO 😄
Click to expand...
 
Cerberus Blade said:
We've had a few of those ex-big name pro's down the years. Not many hit it off here. Peter Withe, Phil Thompson, Nigel Spackman, Ian Rush, Stewart Houston. I'm sure there are many others?

I liked the ex Villa trio of McNaught, Mortimer and Cowans though. And Paul McGrath of course - even though he was a cripple when we signed him.
Click to expand...

Houston battled his way through our Fourth Division season, so in my book doesn't deserve to be lumped in with the useless big nosed twat and the useless chest it into goal bearded twat.

Honourable mentions to Budgie and Stuart McCall too, but Paul Parker can do one.

Of course you missed out our best 'big name' disappointment who started as a player and proved to be so good, we insisted he manage our relegation to our lowest ever point.
 
INTERUNITED said:
If memory serves me right, he ran off the pitch, got changed and left the ground. He was never seen again!! He was shite though to be fair.
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I seem to remember he had words with Warnock on the touchline before disappearing down the tunnel, but I'm not sure. He never looked good for us though and his career overall was pretty poor.
 
Cerberus Blade said:
His nickname was "Boo". Nigel "Boo" Spackman. Our fans really didn't like him very much as a player. I thought he got us playing some great football as a manager though - although he probably continued where Howard Kendall had left off.

We've had a few of those ex-big name pro's down the years. Not many hit it off here. Peter Withe, Phil Thompson, Nigel Spackman, Ian Rush, Stewart Houston. I'm sure there are many others?

I liked the ex Villa trio of McNaught, Mortimer and Cowans though. And Paul McGrath of course - even though he was a cripple when we signed him.
Click to expand...
He was a fucking good cripple though. He could certainly read the game.
 
Revolution said:
I think the first player this happened to was Peter Duffield, who came on and then went off again in the 2-2 draw at Fulham in our 1988-9 promotion season.
Click to expand...

I was at that game aged 7! Brilliant match. Also my 5-year-old brother's first game, and also the one and only football match my mother ever attended in her entire life.
 

I wouldn't have a problem if Wilder subbed off a sub. I trust the manager and his decision. But I did think it lacked class for Dunc not to speak to him or acknowledge him. Even if he took him off because he was playing garbage, at least have a word with him, or tell him that you'll explain after the match. Don't blank him. The only reason I can think he blanked him was to send a message to the other players that he expects better from them, and that this substitution was a warning. But even then the act of subbing him should be warning enough which the players couldn't have helped but notice.
 
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