john joe otoole
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Fiery Blade
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Colchester - thats probably his level yet many on here wanted him signed - The mind boggles !!!!!
When the new UEFA Ruling that "every team shall have at least one flat footed unfit pikey in their squad " we will regret the missed oppertunity.
Just because he has gone on loan to join his old manager doesn't mean he can't hack it at this level.
People make me wonder you know - they slate O'Toole when he was barely given a chance. But stick up for people like Sharp who wasted chance after chance.
Fiery Blade
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For the record I never saw anything in OToole's game that made the Blades any better, but, he can pass the ball better than Monty, put his foot on the ball better than Quinn. However never has been or never will be as good as Hendrie and he never got a chance. It was only that Blackwell couldn't manage Hendrie full stop!
And for the record I totally agree with your Sharp comment
Always either offside or on his arse!
For me - O'Toole had something about him.
Yes he didn't look like he was in control of his body. But he put himself about, his passing range looked decent, didn't shirk challenges and could win the ball in the air.
But boy was he ugly.
I always love these "never given a chance" arguments.
I defy anyone to point to any of the players "never given a chance" at the Lane over the last 20 years, who we let go and who then went on to perform adequately at SUFC's level or higher
I defy anyone to point to any of the players "never given a chance" at the Lane over the last 20 years, who we let go and who then went on to perform adequately at SUFC's level or higher
Bath Blade
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Also, the 'never given a chance' argument completely disregards the fact that the manager has seen the player in training five days a week plus in reserve matches.
Just one off the top off my head Lee Hendrie at Leicester.
Ollessendro
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He was rubbish come on. I can't believe people are debating this.
And before some of you start (Robbie) .... yes, it's my opinion that he was rubbish. Others may not share this.
He started 5 games and came of the bench 4 times. Ok this isn't a stretch in the team but it's enough to show something. Other than a goal against Barnsley he showed very little. He doesn't look anything like a footballer.
Yes he's good in the air, yes he gets stuck in. But so what. Blackwell (quite rightly in my opinion) has showed he will play Monty as a holding midfielder. Hence we need someon next to him who can pass well, get forward and score goals, has flair and creativity. Jon Joe O'Toole is not that man! I believe we may have that man in James Harper. Additionally Williamson should be fit in a few months. There is absolutely no way that we should have gone in for JJ!
And before some of you start (Robbie) .... yes, it's my opinion that he was rubbish. Others may not share this.
He started 5 games and came of the bench 4 times. Ok this isn't a stretch in the team but it's enough to show something. Other than a goal against Barnsley he showed very little. He doesn't look anything like a footballer.
Yes he's good in the air, yes he gets stuck in. But so what. Blackwell (quite rightly in my opinion) has showed he will play Monty as a holding midfielder. Hence we need someon next to him who can pass well, get forward and score goals, has flair and creativity. Jon Joe O'Toole is not that man! I believe we may have that man in James Harper. Additionally Williamson should be fit in a few months. There is absolutely no way that we should have gone in for JJ!
Your point being?
You asked a question to which you got an answer.
Are you saying that if you get relegated with a team a certain player can't have played well?
Darren Makes a good point regarding the "never given a chance brigade" .
Probably due to the culture of the club over many years that we have had managers who have had to make the team as a whole better than the componant parts . If anything we have raised the level of effectiveness of average players rather than rely on individuals to do that for us.
Every so often we unearth a gem and quuickly sell him on to either underperform elsewhere or simply justify the fee paid.
The only player, although given enough chances and probably dipensed with for other reasons who could fall in to the catagory of done well elswhere was Tri Dellas . After that i'm struggling .
My point is that, even if he was successful with Leicester (and I don't know if he was) he was playing with a team that was relegated and was (obviously) a signifantly worse team than United.
Revolution
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I defy anyone to point to any of the players "never given a chance" at the Lane over the last 20 years, who we let go and who then went on to perform adequately at SUFC's level or higher
Clive Mendonca
Matt Duke
Jim Gannon
Clive Mendonca
Matt Duke
Jim Gannon
Matt Duke I'll give you - he was our reserve goalie in the second tier and is now a reserve goalie in the top tier - but I don't recall anyone saying that he was "never given a chance" when we let him go in 2000. T
When we got rid of Mendonca in 88 he went on to play for Rotherham who were in a lower division that United. We re-signed him in 91 (when we were in the top tier) and let him go again to Grimbsy in 92. He then played well for Grimbsy and Charlton, mainly in the 2nd tier (he may have played a few games in the PL in 98-99, but didn't pull up any trees there) - so he never performed adequately at the level SUFC were at in 91-92./
We let Jim Gannon go when we were promoted to the top tier in 1990. Given that the pinnacle of his career was at Stockport in the lower reaches in the 2nd tier in the late 90's, the same applies for him as for Mendonca.
Revolution
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When we got rid of Mendonca in 88 he went on to play for Rotherham who were in a lower division that United. We re-signed him in 91 (when we were in the top tier) and let him go again to Grimbsy in 92. He then played well for Grimbsy and Charlton, mainly in the 2nd tier (he may have played a few games in the PL in 98-99, but didn't pull up any trees there) - so he never performed adequately at the level SUFC were at in 91-92./
Mendonca was playing at the same level as us between 1995-6 and 1997-8 and outscored our top scorer in 2 of those 3 seasons.
He did play a bit in the PL. He scored a hattrick against Southampton. Of course, then he went down through injury.
We let Jim Gannon go when we were promoted to the top tier in 1990. Given that the pinnacle of his career was at Stockport in the lower reaches in the 2nd tier in the late 90's, the same applies for him as for Mendonca.
He played 4 seasons in the same division as us, 1996-7 to 1999-2000. He played almost 400 games for Stockport.
If you're saying, as a matter of semantics, that I'm mistaken because we were a top division side and therefore their later performance in a parallel division is irrelevant, the partial answer is United were a second division side when they got rid of Gannon, although that would be greater nit-picking than your response.
The Mendonca sale the 2nd time round was, whichever way you look at it, premature.
Mendonca was playing at the same level as us between 1995-6 and 1997-8 and outscored our top scorer in 2 of those 3 seasons.
He did play a bit in the PL. He scored a hattrick against Southampton. Of course, then he went down through injury.
We let Jim Gannon go when we were promoted to the top tier in 1990. Given that the pinnacle of his career was at Stockport in the lower reaches in the 2nd tier in the late 90's, the same applies for him as for Mendonca.
He played 4 seasons in the same division as us, 1996-7 to 1999-2000. He played almost 400 games for Stockport.
If you're saying, as a matter of semantics, that I'm mistaken because we were a top division side and therefore their later performance in a parallel division is irrelevant, the partial answer is United were a second division side when they got rid of Gannon, although that would be greater nit-picking than your response.
The Mendonca sale the 2nd time round was, whichever way you look at it, premature.
JJ Sefton
Live, Laugh, Love
Stretching it but Chris Marsden?
You said at the same level...... I hadn't realised that because they finished lower than us in the league it wasn't the same level
Go on then, I'll give you Mendonca, but I don't think you can have Gannon. I'm going on on a limb here, but I think United finished above Gannon's club for every season of his career (though only on GD in 1999-2000).
That's why I said the last 20 years
Marsden went in 88.Seriously, I don't think letting 2 players go who we shouldn't have let go (Mendonca and Marsden) in the last 20 years is that bad a record. And this is in hindsight. I don't recall any mass protests when either of the two M's were sold off. Most people thought that Bassett had dropped a bollock in re-signing Mendonca in 91 and the decision to let him go in 92 was pretty generally thought to be the right one.
jkblade7
New Member
finally someone who talks some sense , jon jo was class and he could easily play at our level , and the interview he had when he came into the club on bladesworld was the most level headed , determined young players interview ive ever sin. Besides injuries was a massive let down for him.
Bladesman
The Great Grumbleduke
I dont think we saw enough of O'Toole to slate him as much as some are.
If he hadnt picked up an injury we would of seen more of him. I thought his tackling was spot on 9 time out of 10 and wasnt afraid to get forward.
If he hadnt picked up an injury we would of seen more of him. I thought his tackling was spot on 9 time out of 10 and wasnt afraid to get forward.
Revolution
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Stretching it but Chris Marsden?
The thing with Marsden was that he turned into a solid Premier League player - but this didn't happen until after he'd turned about 32, 13 years after United sold him. Prior to joining Southampton he'd moved around a bit and only had a brief spell in the top flight with Coventry.
This was an unusual career path to say the least. Not many players in the PL era have established themselves at that level in their 30s. No one could have forseen he'd do this.
You can understand why Bassett sold Marsden. At that time, he liked a Simon Webster/Bob Booker type player partnering a Mark Todd/John Gannon type - and Marsden was neither of these things. He toughened up later but was very lightweight in his only season with us. I also agree with Darren that no one was really bothered when he was sold. Denis Clareborough calls his sale a "mistake" but I think there's 20 years of hindsight in that comment.
The Mendonca sale in 1988 was less defensible because he had scored a few goals (4 in 11 games) in a bad team, and at times looked the real deal. Bassett gave up on him very quickly, though, after a game (Shrewsbury?) in which he was very poor. Mind you, Deane and Agana appeared soon after so Mendonca's initial sale didn't hurt us as it turned out.
Seriously, I don't think letting 2 players go who we shouldn't have let go (Mendonca and Marsden) in the last 20 years is that bad a record.
Agreed. There are various criticisms that people level at our youth set up, but one thing we do not do is cast talent aside lightly.
The thing with Marsden was that he turned into a solid Premier League player - but this didn't happen until after he'd turned about 32, 13 years after United sold him. Prior to joining Southampton he'd moved around a bit and only had a brief spell in the top flight with Coventry.
This was an unusual career path to say the least. Not many players in the PL era have established themselves at that level in their 30s. No one could have forseen he'd do this.
You can understand why Bassett sold Marsden. At that time, he liked a Simon Webster/Bob Booker type player partnering a Mark Todd/John Gannon type - and Marsden was neither of these things. He toughened up later but was very lightweight in his only season with us. I also agree with Darren that no one was really bothered when he was sold. Denis Clareborough calls his sale a "mistake" but I think there's 20 years of hindsight in that comment.
The Mendonca sale in 1988 was less defensible because he had scored a few goals (4 in 11 games) in a bad team, and at times looked the real deal. Bassett gave up on him very quickly, though, after a game (Shrewsbury?) in which he was very poor. Mind you, Deane and Agana appeared soon after so Mendonca's initial sale didn't hurt us as it turned out.
Seriously, I don't think letting 2 players go who we shouldn't have let go (Mendonca and Marsden) in the last 20 years is that bad a record.
Agreed. There are various criticisms that people level at our youth set up, but one thing we do not do is cast talent aside lightly.
bricktop
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Is it just me, or does anyone else think Billy Sharp will be like a modern day Clive Mendonca.
For whatever reason it will never happen for him at the Lane, but at other clubs he will flourish and score many goals?
For whatever reason it will never happen for him at the Lane, but at other clubs he will flourish and score many goals?
Revolution
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I think you could well be right, Brownie. At least if he starts to score now we have the option of getting him back.
Bladesman
The Great Grumbleduke
I think Billy will score a good few goals elsewhere.
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