David Weir

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Ollessendro said:
The truth is that it is difficult to settle this argument, because there is little evidence around about it. McGraph initially came on a short term contract. He impressed Spackman and was offerred a one year deal after 5 games in October. He played another 7 games before getting injured and then never playing again. He officially retired in April. So perhaps there is something in alco's suggestion. As his last game was early to mid November then that could mean that there was 5 months that we paid him for essentially nothing. So this 'raping' that alco talks of is presumably for this 5 month period.

It is not as clear as that though. McGraph officially retired in April. This was around the time of his testimonial. The question is did he speak to Spackman before? Did his contract get terminated beforehand or did he 'bleed' us. He may have actually thought he may play again, but gave up the ghost in the mean time. He had another knee operation during this time and perhaps this influenced things. In his autobiography he states he went to Spckers and said, my knees are fooked, I'm all over the place etc and asked for his contract to be terminated. Could be bollocks, but why would he lie? The rest of his account is brutally honest. I guess the other question is when did he speak to Spackman? Was it November/December? In which case he did not rape us. Or was it in April? In which case he did get 5 months of a salary for very little. Regardless of which, his contract was until October 1998 and he quit in April. Hence he did not rape us as much as he could have, as he could have bled another 6 months out of his contract.
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But then we don't know on what terms his contract was terminated. Usually, a contract is terminated around a financial settlement. Player says, "you will pay me (say) a total of £200K up until the end of the season 6 months hence, however I will agree to terminate my contract if you pay me a lump sum of £150K now". It may be that McGrath agreed to just walk away without any kind of financial settlement but in the absence of clear evidence I would think that highly unlikely.
 



Would any insurance have been paid out from the date he last played? I'm not sure on the ins and outs of footballers insurance but it's quite likely in the event of the player retiring that it did. (only guessing Darren owd lad)
 
Darren said:
But then we don't know on what terms his contract was terminated. Usually, a contract is terminated around a financial settlement. Player says, "you will pay me (say) a total of £200K up until the end of the season 6 months hence, however I will agree to terminate my contract if you pay me a lump sum of £150K now". It may be that McGrath agreed to just walk away without any kind of financial settlement but in the absence of clear evidence I would think that highly unlikely.
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If McGraath was retiring from the game and clearly fooked, then he was hardly in a position to negotiate a hefty pay off. "Oh, Nigel top o thwe morning t ya. Can't play, knees are fooked, announced my retirement and I am having a testimonial next week. But that daft two hat Charlie Green was stupid enough to offer me a contract til October. Tell yi wot, I'll tayke half a million off you now to terminate my contract" :rolleyes:

A lot of this comes down to contractual arrangements. Did Spackers pay £20k a week for the legendary Paul McGraph? Or did he pay an old cripple struggling to pay for a place to live a smaller wage or put something in the contract about injuries or early retirment? Guess Charlie Green and Super Mac were dishing out decent contracts at the time, so maybe Paul Mac got one. Truth is that we do not know. I am perfectly happy to go round in circles about what was likely though.

Another factor is insurance. If a player is forced out of their contract due to getting an injury, then the club is usually covered. Spo when McGrath was forced to retire 'early', did United get some sort of compensation? Again, something difficult to prove for or against, as little evidence seems to exist.
 
Ollessendro said:
If McGraath was retiring from the game and clearly fooked, then he was hardly in a position to negotiate a hefty pay off. "Oh, Nigel top o thwe morning t ya. Can't play, knees are fooked, announced my retirement and I am having a testimonial next week. But that daft two hat Charlie Green was stupid enough to offer me a contract til October. Tell yi wot, I'll tayke half a million off you now to terminate my contract" :rolleyes: .
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You make it sound like the boot wasn't on his foot. He'd already got the contract. He could have sat it out "on the treatment table" and there's fuck all the club could have done about it other than pay him in full. That's why any pay-off would probaby be substantial, if less than the value of his whole contract.

UTB
 
Chris1012 said:
So.... David Weir ? :S
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Chris me owd spadge. Gerr im on same contract as BT. United av suddenly devloped financial nouse and av got (the legend) James Beattie on a pay as you play deal. Get old Davey boy on the same. 41 spring chicken. Look at George Foreman. Like ridin a push iron pal .....

---------- Post added at 12:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 PM ----------
alcoblade said:
You make it sound like the boot wasn't on his foot. He'd already got the contract. He could have sat it out "on the treatment table" and there's fuck all the club could have done about it other than pay him in full. That's why any pay-off would probaby be substantial, if less than the value of his whole contract.

UTB
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If United were daft enough to offer him the contract that you are talking about alco, then was it really McGrath that 'raped' us (hypothetically speaking). Should he have turned down this lucrative, career twilight deal (that we know United like to dish out) deal and said 'well be jesus Nigel, mi knees are shagged n am too busy drinkin Guiness to train, I'll never last ..... give me a pay as you play, or at least put an injury or retirement clause in there'. I'd be looking at our old friends Mr Green and Mr McDonald, who hardly covered themselves in glory.

I had a friend who did her work experience at SUFC (connected to Charles Green actually) and she stated that Michael Vonk's salary was halved when he got injured. The Blades had been sensible enough to put that into the contract of a very good player, but with a poor injury track record. Would it be ridiculous to think that something similar might have been stipulated in Paul McGrath's contract alco?
 
>So, if we paid him £1M for what ended up being 12 games, you wouldn't consider that a bad signing?
we seemed to win a lot when he was here. so by that yardstick i'd say he was a great signing
 
super_pig said:
>So, if we paid him £1M for what ended up being 12 games, you wouldn't consider that a bad signing?
we seemed to win a lot when he was here. so by that yardstick i'd say he was a great signing
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If every player we'd ever signed represented the same value as McGrath (cost V return) then we wouldn't be discussing it because we'd have been out oif business years ago. By that yardstick, he was an apalling signing....:)

Given that it's now widely accepted that McCabe's poor decisions have landed us in the financial mess we are, it's irionic how many fans , even wth the benefit of hindsight which is all I'm using, consider McGrath a success. I maintain that it's this financial idiocy that's put football where it is today.

UTB
 
alcoblade said:
If every player we'd ever signed represented the same value as McGrath (cost V return) then we wouldn't be discussing it because we'd have been out oif business years ago. By that yardstick, he was an apalling signing....:)

Given that it's now widely accepted that McCabe's poor decisions have landed us in the financial mess we are, it's irionic how many fans , even wth the benefit of hindsight which is all I'm using, consider McGrath a success. I maintain that it's this financial idiocy that's put football where it is today.

UTB
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Completely wild accusation. You have no idea of what he was paid, his severance terms and even the value we got out of it.
 
I don't give a shit what we paid him, he was great. We've wasted more on other people I've long forgotten about I'm sure.

Have we signed Weir then?
 
if we dont sign him before december the 12th then forget it
 



Deleted Member said:
post: 390212"]Neither have you Olly.
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But I am not making wild accusations Browmie. And if you read my post a few lines above I actually state that none of us know the terms of the deal and therefore the debate cannot really be settled. I am offering a sensiblem, balanced argument, wheras alco is just throwing out wild accusations.
 
Ollessendro said:
But I am not making wild accusations Browmie. And if you read my post a few lines above I actually state that none of us know the terms of the deal and therefore the debate cannot really be settled. I am offering a sensiblem, balanced argument, wheras alco is just throwing out wild accusations.
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It's fairly safe to say that Ex ManUre, Aston Villa and Republic of Ireland international was paid for about one year, at an unknown level. Only an utter fool would think that it wasn't at a fairtly substantial salary. He played 12 games.

My conclusion from that (he represented very poor value) is based on far more known fact than the logic you applied (ie fuck all known fact) to the value of the Beattie deal beforer a ball was even kicked, and yet you still concluded that we were being ripped off.

And to be clear, I believe that during his 12 games spell he was very good for us.


UTB
 
I am not sure that the fact that he was one of the greatets defenders to grace the game comes into it. Do you think Spackman offered him an extra 10k a week because he kept Roberto Baggio (best play in the world at the time) in his pocket when Ireland beat Italy in USA 94? The guy was 38 years old and on the scrap heap. Knees so fucked that he could not even warm up, never mind train. Released by Derby County and hardly inundated with offers. He was desperate for cash, as he was struggling to pay for his family. Only a fool would think that he was on a huge salary.

How is the Beattie situation going by the way? Do you think he is offering good value?? Everything I have said about 'Mr VFM' has been correct. Complete waste of a wage. At least McGrath performed (brilliantly) in those 12 games. Now if Beattie manages to play 12 full games and the team only loses once, I will suck judge's toes.
 
i,d like that but only if i can wear my steel toe caps and volley you full pelt while youre doing it
 
Ollessendro said:
I am not sure that the fact that he was one of the greatets defenders to grace the game comes into it. Do you think Spackman offered him an extra 10k a week because he kept Roberto Baggio (best play in the world at the time) in his pocket when Ireland beat Italy in USA 94? The guy was 38 years old and on the scrap heap. Knees so fucked that he could not even warm up, never mind train. Released by Derby County and hardly inundated with offers. He was desperate for cash, as he was struggling to pay for his family. Only a fool would think that he was on a huge salary.

How is the Beattie situation going by the way? Do you think he is offering good value?? Everything I have said about 'Mr VFM' has been correct. Complete waste of a wage. At least McGrath performed (brilliantly) in those 12 games. Now if Beattie manages to play 12 full games and the team only loses once, I will suck judge's toes.
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Huge salary, small salary - whatever. It's very clear that we expected far more than 12 games from him in any year long spell. You're just dug in so deep you're refusing to accept the obvious, so I think we should leave it there.

As for Beattie, you may recall I wasn't overly keen on the deal either. But that's not the point here. You suggested that I was drawing conclusions based on too little fact. I reminded you that you're guilty of drawing conclusions on far less.

UTB
 
alcoblade said:
Huge salary, small salary - whatever. It's very clear that we expected far more than 12 games from him in any year long spell. You're just dug in so deep you're refusing to accept the obvious, so I think we should leave it there.

As for Beattie, you may recall I wasn't overly keen on the deal either. But that's not the point here. You suggested that I was drawing conclusions based on too little fact. I reminded you that you're guilty of drawing conclusions on far less.

UTB
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John Ebbrell has got to be the king of the most money least return stakes...
 
alcoblade said:
Huge salary, small salary - whatever. It's very clear that we expected far more than 12 games from him in any year long spell. You're just dug in so deep you're refusing to accept the obvious, so I think we should leave it there.

As for Beattie, you may recall I wasn't overly keen on the deal either. But that's not the point here. You suggested that I was drawing conclusions based on too little fact. I reminded you that you're guilty of drawing conclusions on far less.

UTB
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McGrath only served 6 months of that year contract. There was always going to be a risk he would get injured or have to pack in. Hence the one year contract. Were we sensible enough to put a clause in? Who knows. Saying he 'raped' the club is just silly. That is my gripe. Fancy taking it back now I have tied you in knots? There is a bit long list of players that have represented poor VFM for the Blades. You only have to look at Darius Henderson, James Beattie mark II and the vast majority of loan signings in the last few season. Geez, we probably spent a similar amount on Marcus Bent last season. I know which represented better VFM to me.

I think my conclusions on BT are pretty sound. If we are paying him minimum wage then he has still been poor VFM. A sending off, zero goals and bugger all contribution (when he has actually been on the pitch). Now I can make an educated guess that he is on a lot more than £5.65 an hour. Waste of a wage, regardless of what it is.
 
Darren said:
John Ebbrell has got to be the king of the most money least return stakes...
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Agreed, but speaking of kings............

Ollessendro said:
McGrath only served 6 months of that year contract. There was always going to be a risk he would get injured or have to pack in. Hence the one year contract. Were we sensible enough to put a clause in? Who knows. Saying he 'raped' the club is just silly. That is my gripe. Fancy taking it back now I have tied you in knots?
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........you are king of talking complete bollocks Olle, I'll give you that much.

:)

UTB
 
If we offered him a contract of 12 months with no clauses for his knee/knees packing in when he'd not trained due to having fucked knees for the last five to ten years of his career up to that point then it isn't olle's fault. Fuck me. He was ace when he played but if we had him on a full 12 month deal on whatever it was then it was crazy.

I never saw ebberall's 45 mins for us but I saw Paul Maybe three times and he was superb. The only other time I saw him he played for villa with teale and was man of the match. He was a star.

I don't care what he was paid. It was less than we gave Nos as a loaner I bet (yes with no knowledge and even taking inflation into account) and I'm pleased to have seen him in a utd shirt.

Was Ian rush any better? Fortunately I was at uni when he wasn't scoring for us. How much did we pay that fella for not being injured but just being old and a bit shit?
 
diplomat said:
If we offered him a contract of 12 months with no clauses for his knee/knees packing in when he'd not trained due to having fucked knees for the last five to ten years of his career up to that point then it isn't olle's fault. Fuck me. He was ace when he played but if we had him on a full 12 month deal on whatever it was then it was crazy.

I never saw ebberall's 45 mins for us but I saw Paul Maybe three times and he was superb. The only other time I saw him he played for villa with teale and was man of the match. He was a star.

I don't care what he was paid. It was less than we gave Nos as a loaner I bet (yes with no knowledge and even taking inflation into account) and I'm pleased to have seen him in a utd shirt.

Was Ian rush any better? Fortunately I was at uni when he wasn't scoring for us. How much did we pay that fella for not being injured but just being old and a bit shit?
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You're right diplomat. It was a pleasure to see such a fantastic player in a United shirt. Not only that but perform in a United shirt.

Of all the players that have 'raped' the club in the last 15 years it is bizare that alco has singled out McGrath. When we've had Nosworthy and Bent last season probably getting more, playing for a similar time and certainly contributing less.

If anyone 'raped' the club with this deal it was either Charles Green or Nigel Spackman. That is if they actually offered him this lucrative contract that alco talks of (which is of course unlikely). McGrath took what was on offer. And even then he was decent enough to ask Spackman to cancel it half way through!

alcoblade said:
........you are king of talking complete bollocks Olle, I'll give you that much.
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And right on queue, the argument is over. Alco gets tied up in knots and then his only retort is 'you're talking bollocks'. No further questions your honour.

Anyway, back to Weir. I guess the questions is 'is he better than what we've got?' or 'will he add value?' As centre half cover, then the answer is probably yes. But it is up to Wilson to decide. If he proves his fitness, maybe plays in the reserves and shows some hunger then why not. Presumably at 41 he just wants to play the game and hence a contract should not be too much of a stumbling block. I am sure he can still cut it at this level. Personally I would feel more comfortable that we have cover for Maguire and Collins. We may even give one of them a rest. Weir is a leader and may add value there too. This has been missing a little in a few big games this season.
 
Ollessendro said:
And right on queue, the argument is over. Alco gets tied up in knots and then his only retort is 'you're talking bollocks'.
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Do us a favour Olle and make "I'm talking bollocks" your signture. It'll reduce the risk of RSI for the rest of us.

:)

UTB
 



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