Are we wednesday in disguise?

[Stockholm syndrom]

When I was a lad (I'm 32) I started watching the Blades in Div 3 (proper name) 1988-89 season. The pigs were in div 1, not doing great by all accounts but still....the "top club" in Sheffield.

I knew and loved the Blades before even going to my first match, my dad probably not wanting to subject me to the early to mid 80's turned to me one weekend and said "were off down t'lane today to see Blades, we're starting to get our act together"....we played Huddersfield and won 5-1.

I spent the next 10 years following the Blades home and away....and what a journey that was...

My dad's first match was a piggy match, his dad being a piggy He said it were "alreyt but the atmosphere were flat, too many moaners." He then went along with a mate and his dad to watch a Blades match....hooked, the fans were electric and got behind the team etc. He started watching us in the early 60's.

My point is....my formative years at school were spent in the shadow of the "mighty" wedenesday, the taunting etc until the Bassett era. During this period wednesday fans would often brag about how they were above us in the league, had more fans, better ground etc etc. We as Blades used to say, who gives a sh#t, we are Blades and when we play you we'll beat you. We lived in their shadow much more than they do in ours today. That gave us the edge, the never say die spirit and why bassett, warnock bode well with many of our fans.

There has always been an element who want a "new way" and moan about how we play, manager, chariman etc.. I dont disagree to some extents. Being the "top team" in Sheffield and playing football we can be proud of, not being a selling club, good fanbase is of course what every Blade wants to see, I just think we have forgotten where used to be not so long ago.

In all honesty I think we were "better fans" bacause of this underdog mentality.

Things change, we now have the better position in Sheffield, it's easy to brag but Blades...

Are we becoming like the wednesday fans a lot of us grew up with?

 

[judge]

When I was a lad (I'm 32) I started watching the Blades in Div 3 (proper name) 1988-89 season. The pigs were in div 1, not doing great by all accounts but still....the "top club" in Sheffield.

I knew and loved the Blades before even going to my first match, my dad probably not wanting to subject me to the early to mid 80's turned to me one weekend and said "were off down t'lane today to see Blades, we're starting to get our act together"....we played Huddersfield and won 5-1.

I spent the next 10 years following the Blades home and away....and what a journey that was...

My dad's first match was a piggy match, his dad being a piggy He said it were "alreyt but the atmosphere were flat, too many moaners." He then went along with a mate and his dad to watch a Blades match....hooked, the fans were electric and got behind the team etc. He started watching us in the early 60's.

My point is....my formative years at school were spent in the shadow of the "mighty" wedenesday, the taunting etc until the Bassett era. During this period wednesday fans would often brag about how they were above us in the league, had more fans, better ground etc etc. We as Blades used to say, who gives a sh#t, we are Blades and when we play you we'll beat you. We lived in their shadow much more than they do in ours today. That gave us the edge, the never say die spirit and why bassett, warnock bode well with many of our fans.

There has always been an element who want a "new way" and moan about how we play, manager, chariman etc.. I dont disagree to some extents. Being the "top team" in Sheffield and playing football we can be proud of, not being a selling club, good fanbase is of course what every Blade wants to see, I just think we have forgotten where used to be not so long ago.

In all honesty I think we were "better fans" bacause of this underdog mentality.

Things change, we now have the better position in Sheffield, it's easy to brag but Blades...

Are we becoming like the wednesday fans a lot of us grew up with?

best post ive read on any forum ever

 

[Deleted member 875]

When I was a lad (I'm 32) I started watching the Blades in Div 3 (proper name) 1988-89 season. The pigs were in div 1, not doing great by all accounts but still....the "top club" in Sheffield.

I knew and loved the Blades before even going to my first match, my dad probably not wanting to subject me to the early to mid 80's turned to me one weekend and said "were off down t'lane today to see Blades, we're starting to get our act together"....we played Huddersfield and won 5-1.

I spent the next 10 years following the Blades home and away....and what a journey that was...

My dad's first match was a piggy match, his dad being a piggy He said it were "alreyt but the atmosphere were flat, too many moaners." He then went along with a mate and his dad to watch a Blades match....hooked, the fans were electric and got behind the team etc. He started watching us in the early 60's.

My point is....my formative years at school were spent in the shadow of the "mighty" wedenesday, the taunting etc until the Bassett era. During this period wednesday fans would often brag about how they were above us in the league, had more fans, better ground etc etc. We as Blades used to say, who gives a sh#t, we are Blades and when we play you we'll beat you. We lived in their shadow much more than they do in ours today. That gave us the edge, the never say die spirit and why bassett, warnock bode well with many of our fans.

There has always been an element who want a "new way" and moan about how we play, manager, chariman etc.. I dont disagree to some extents. Being the "top team" in Sheffield and playing football we can be proud of, not being a selling club, good fanbase is of course what every Blade wants to see, I just think we have forgotten where used to be not so long ago.

In all honesty I think we were "better fans" bacause of this underdog mentality.

Things change, we now have the better position in Sheffield, it's easy to brag but Blades...

Are we becoming like the wednesday fans a lot of us grew up with?

I have got much the same background as you have, and i think we do have an element who are similar to the Wednesdayites i grew up with.

What a lot of the problem is, is that we have a small number of supporters who are 'i want it, and i want it now' and unless we are winning they fail to see the bigger picture.

 

[spadge]

ill second that jugde great post mate

 

[Hartyblade]

Good post..

Personally in my group of close-ish mates which is rather big, im the only proper united fan, i've managed to get a few to comes to games with me, most of the few being rugby followers and manure fans

But anyway i give it out constantly but so do they, we cannot turn into wednesday back in your era because in this day n age people are so stubbborn they will always have a return to my taunt.

The main ones being "ole ole ole tudgayyyyyy" or "whats that? we did the double mate? haah"

There won't back down to my taunts as i will never back down to there taunts as United is my life.

 

[cjx blade]

Totally agree about the underdog mentality.I think it's always been a trait of the Blades and we always play better with the support being fantastic and spurring the team on when we are the underdog. The only trouble is that now we are rarely the underdog at home.

 

[spadge]

think united fans expect to much now its like evan the mates i go with complain now at every little thing, if someone would have give us the 3 draws and 2 wins from our first 5 matches befor the season id have took them. but amount of people that was slagging united off when we went 2-1 down was appalling evan heard some fans to the right of were i sit at back of kop singing blackwell sort it out, the same fans going mental and singing blackwell give us a wave when we equalised haha

 

[ghandi]

think united fans expect to much now its like evan the mates i go with complain now at every little thing, if someone would have give us the 3 draws and 2 wins from our first 5 matches befor the season id have took them. but amount of people that was slagging united off when we went 2-1 down was appalling evan heard some fans to the right of were i sit at back of kop singing blackwell sort it out, the same fans going mental and singing blackwell give us a wave when we equalised haha

I can't agree I've been following the Blades since the mid sixties and we've always held a fatalistic view on outcomes and been highly critical of our own players in individual discussions. The only thing that has changed is that now on occasions some of our own players are openly booed collectively.

 

[Revolution]

The only thing that has changed is that now on occasions some of our own players are openly booed collectively.

This is not new by any means. To give just one season as an example, the team came in for terrible barracking at quite a few home games during 1985-6, the Millwall game being the worst example.

 

[judge]

i remember a player called hefernan (sic) who had played poorly for about a dozen games on the trot
end result booing and much worse aimed in his general direction

next game he looked like a man repossesed much to the amusement of the crowd who by the end gave him a standing ovation

lot to be said for booing :rant:

 

[SRBlade]

That underdog tag seems to trigger the fans aswell.

I've not heard a decent atmosphere at the lane (except PNE semi) since we were "backs against the wall" playing against the likes of Arsenal etc. I also remember when Reading were running away with the championship, they came to the lane and it was a pulsating volatile atmosphere as if to say "we are Blades, this is Bramall Lane and you're going to get fuck all here!"

I miss those atmospheres

 

[Stockholm syndrom]

post: 178177"]I have got much the same background as you have, and i think we do have an element who are similar to the Wednesdayites i grew up with.

What a lot of the problem is, is that we have a small number of supporters who are 'i want it, and i want it now' and unless we are winning they fail to see the bigger picture.

Of course we have the "new fan" who for many reasons have no appreciation of what life was like in those trying times, I just feel it's our duty to pass on the spirit of those dark days to remind some of these so called "supporters" to do just that and get behind the team.

Yes we've put up with some shit and there is nothing wrong with wanting the best in life but, I always pride myself with being a Sheffield lad and often tell my southern fairy friends that we were brought up to keep your head held high, and get on wi what you've got and give it your best, no whinging like a babi ;-)

 

[mall]

Underdog doesn't work over the long term.
There's nothing better than being favourites to win. You're thought to be the better team
Being an underdog means you are just that...generally no hopers...is that what everybody wants?
We should never be underdogs in this division..have more ambition for your club.

 

[Jon Bon]

post: 178177"]What a lot of the problem is, is that we have a small number of supporters who are 'i want it, and i want it now' and unless we are winning they fail to see the bigger picture.

The trouble is Brownie, that we should have had it years ago, so the 'wanting it now' bit is only natural and not, in my opinion, too much to ask. Just how big is the bigger picture that you are seeing and just how long have you been staring at it? If we had strengthened the team properly when we were in the premiership, just like Stoke and Hull did and are still doing, then we might still have got 'it'. Instead we bought the likes of Luton Shelton, Ahmed Fathi and Colin Kazeem-Richards and the rest is history.

I'm not ashamed to want it now but I am ashamed that we should have had it years ago and are still waiting...

 

[judge]

The trouble is Brownie, that we should have had it years ago, so the 'wanting it now' bit is only natural and not, in my opinion, too much to ask. Just how big is the bigger picture that you are seeing and just how long have you been staring at it? If we had strengthened the team properly when we were in the premiership, just like Stoke and Hull did and are still doing, then we might still have got 'it'. Instead we bought the likes of Luton Shelton, Ahmed Fathi and Colin Kazeem-Richards and the rest is history.

I'm not ashamed to want it now but I am ashamed that we should have had it years ago and are still waiting...

only the width of a post and a poor refereeing decision stopped us staying up that season so the signings cant have been that bad

 

[Deleted member 875]

The trouble is Brownie, that we should have had it years ago, so the 'wanting it now' bit is only natural and not, in my opinion, too much to ask. Just how big is the bigger picture that you are seeing and just how long have you been staring at it? If we had strengthened the team properly when we were in the premiership, just like Stoke and Hull did and are still doing, then we might still have got 'it'. Instead we bought the likes of Luton Shelton, Ahmed Fathi and Colin Kazeem-Richards and the rest is history.

I'm not ashamed to want it now but I am ashamed that we should have had it years ago and are still waiting...

The Premiership season was over 2 years ago now, and when he had some decent money to spend, the people it was handed over to squandered it, and failed to spend it properly with prehaps the notable exception of Rob Hulse who looked a class act until he broke his leg. The nucleus of the Premiership side we had were/still are very good players at Championship level and not quite good enough for the premiership but gave it every last little bit of effort and in the end were unlucky enough to get relegated.

Looking at the bigger picture, we are now in a situation where we got relegated, tried spending big money too get back up at the first attempt but employed the wrong manager who tried changing things too much and it has been costly in terms of weakening the side in the long term. This has lead us to be overtaken by quite a few teams who have got up and got the premiership money and have spending power that at the moment we can only dream about.

What i see Sheffield United's main asset at the moment, is the attitude that we are Sheffield United and sheer bloodymindedness that permates the clubs and we are at our very best not with a talented but weak minded group of players, but a squad full of players whose collective total is greater than its sum parts. That is the culture (typically encouraged by the method of management of Bassett and Warnock) that a lot of supporters have been bred and brought up with (and i talk about anyone under the age of 30 which makes up a significent part of our supporters demographic), and if that is the way things are going to be then it is something we need to embrace and use to our advantage.

Blackwell is cut from the same cloth as Bassett and Warnock, and has built his team upon the same principles of the collective total being more than the sum total, and i think he has had to remain to competitive in this division.

 

[Stockholm syndrom]

Back to the tiltle of the thread,

Imagine a young lad/lass attending his/her first game at bdtbl and all they hear around them is negitivity. They may want to go to the "other side" and sample what it's like there....maybe it's better?

 

[Bramley]

I just think the fans need to have some perspective. This constant feeling that we "deserve" it, we never used to have this. There's 92 clubs in the league I'm afraid. For every team who comes down and goes straight back up, there's a Forest, Leeds etc who hit rock bottom.

We've come down, steadied the ship and kept financially prudent and we're consistently in the top 6. Look around the ground for chuff's sake, do people forget what is was like???!!

This season we seem to playing better football, Blacky has made some decent signings and we'll be in the mix again. Be positive.

 

[Jon Bon]

Hey suddenly I feel that everything's great. It's like a huge weight has been lifted from my shoulders. I was wrong, the football is great, it's not hoofball up to a sack of spuds, it's long raking passes to the most mobile and skillful of target men. Blackwell IS a tactical genius. Where as before I was only seeing half of a Plan A, now I realise that there are Plans B, C, D & E all the way up to Q. If only I hadn't been so blind before.... etc...etc...etc


Is that better...?

 

[Deleted member 875]

Hey suddenly I feel that everything's great. It's like a huge weight has been lifted from my shoulders. I was wrong, the football is great, it's not hoofball up to a sack of spuds, it's long raking passes to the most mobile and skillful of target men. Blackwell IS a tactical genius. Where as before I was only seeing half of a Plan A, now I realise that there are Plans B, C, D & E all the way up to Q. If only I hadn't been so blind before.... etc...etc...etc


Is that better...?

Instead of being sarcastic, why don't you try and look beyond your own blinkered view of things and argue the points that are being raised?

Looking at things from a different angle, Stoke fans used to get on the back of Tony Pulis for the long ball and physical style of football they used to play, but a few years on do you think he gets lambasted for his style of football, or does he get praised for taking them up to the Premiership and giving them their best times in the last 25 years.

In your opinion is Blackwell not capable of replicating the success of Pulis at Stoke? Would you be not happy to give him the chance to prove what he can do?

It all goes back to the clapper/knocker divide, where people take join sides and sling tantrums backwards and forwards depending upon which side of the argument you are. This is more of a reasoned debate and you would have been better served to argue the points raised rather than losing the argument by throwing your toys out of the pram.

 

[cooperblade]

post: 178344"]Blackwell is cut from the same cloth as Bassett and Warnock, and has built his team upon the same principles of the collective total being more than the sum total, and i think he has had to remain to competitive in this division.

Surprised to hear you say that. In my opinion, one of the big problems is that Blackwell is nothing like Bassett or Warnock. Those two had tons of charisma and inspired devotion amongst (most of) their players. I've talked to a few people who've played under Warnock and they all speak highly of him. From what I understand, finding those who speak highly of Blackwell is far more difficult.

 

[Jon Bon]

post: 178412"]In your opinion is Blackwell not capable of replicating the success of Pulis at Stoke? Would you be not happy to give him the chance to prove what he can do?

No he is not in my opinion, but as I have said elsewhere, I have nothing against him personally and would kiss his big fat ugly head (the one on top of his shoulders missus) if he got us promoted, but I know my integrity and lips are safe under this regime. Of course I will give him a chance, I have to in my support for the club and I'd love to be proved wrong. Just because I moan about him on here and down the pub, doesn't mean I'm standing on my seat for 90 minutes shouting 'Blackwell out!'

Do you, or anyone, see anything in our performances under Blackie, apart from huff & puff and good old honest workrate - ie 'The Blades Way' - that offers any hope for the near future, cos I don't. I just see one dimensional tactics and a lack of ideas or originality. Yeah sure, there's the odd bit of pleasing passing football thrown in occasionally but I think that says more about the players we have than the manager's tactics. You mentioned Warnock and Bassett but these two are like chalk and cheese to Blackwell. At least those two knew how to attack teams. Promotion is acheived by winning games that you could have lost, not by not losing games you could have won. I don't see Blackie emulating either of those two anytime soon.

:gallop:

I don't know what it's supposed to mean, but I like the horse....

 

[Fiery Blade]

Blackwell is not in the same league as eithe Warnock or Bassett. He has neither the charisma or football savvy of Bassett or the drive of Warnock. Blackwell is an ordinary manager with extremely poor communication and man management skills. He is full of his own importance and will lead United nowhere!. He is and always will be a nearly man without the wherewithal to go that extra mile!

 

[happyhippy]

The trouble is Brownie, that we should have had it years ago, so the 'wanting it now' bit is only natural and not, in my opinion, too much to ask. Just how big is the bigger picture that you are seeing and just how long have you been staring at it? If we had strengthened the team properly when we were in the premiership, just like Stoke and Hull did and are still doing, then we might still have got 'it'. Instead we bought the likes of Luton Shelton, Ahmed Fathi and Colin Kazeem-Richards and the rest is history.

I'm not ashamed to want it now but I am ashamed that we should have had it years ago and are still waiting...

I don't think we 'should' have had 'it'. And I'd like to find someone who can give me a reasoned response as to why we should have a reserved place at the top table.

My first match was a 2-2 draw v Tottenham in 1978 in Division Two. I saw nothing of any thing like glory until the Cup run which came to an end at Norwich nearly TWENTY years later, when they were coming out singing "We got out of jail! We got out of jail!"

My upbringing as far as United was concerned included visiting Colchester to be beaten 5-2 (3-0 when we got in after 10 minutes), Altrincham away when we were beaten in the First Round of the Cup, visited because according to my uncle "Why else would you ever come to this grot hole otherwise?"

It was purely fighting against the tide, and as a kid growing up in South London, it was bloody hard to have an Orient taking the piss on a regular basis when they were two divisions above us.

Even when we got better and consolidated in the division we're now in, we had matches like bloody Oldham at home (5-0 defeat - Benstead lobbed four times, I think).

No club has the right to 'have it', and we've spent the best part of a century being spectacularly unsuccessful. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. In the 35 years I've been on the planet, we've had SEVEN years in the top flight.

That's one out of five years in the top flight, and please remember that in three of those, we were relegated from the top flight, and have visited the bottom tier of English football, losing to a side which eventually finished 23rd in that division (Scunthorpe).

In my lifetime, we've had a pretty mediocre record, but I've still loved following my beloved Blades.

Unfortunately, the "I want it now" crowd turned up because they could see Chelsea. Our last two relegations have been down to misfortune. We have been in the second tier of English football for all but one year in FIFTEEN years.

I honestly don't think that we 'should' be in the top flight, but I'd rather be there. Thinking that we 'should' be there is exacxtly as was said by others beforehand; the premise of the pigs during the 80's and 90's, and they nearly dropped to the Fourth as well!

 

[happyhippy]

Back to the tiltle of the thread,

Imagine a young lad/lass attending his/her first game at bdtbl and all they hear around them is negitivity. They may want to go to the "other side" and sample what it's like there....maybe it's better?

Even on the good days, we're all negative!

 

[happyhippy]

No he is not in my opinion, but as I have said elsewhere, I have nothing against him personally and would kiss his big fat ugly head (the one on top of his shoulders missus) if he got us promoted, but I know my integrity and lips are safe under this regime. Of course I will give him a chance, I have to in my support for the club and I'd love to be proved wrong. Just because I moan about him on here and down the pub, doesn't mean I'm standing on my seat for 90 minutes shouting 'Blackwell out!'

Can you provide an alternative though?

Albeit in a very short space of time, I believe that statistically he is the most successful manager we've' ever had. He's taken us from certain doom under Sornob to 45 minutes from the play-offs, and then a match and a point from promotion last year, and we're unbeaten so far this year.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think all is rosy and light, but we have to remember who we are in the big picture.

 

[Revolution]

Of course, no team has a divine right to be in a certain league or to win trophies. But you have to say that, when you look at our post war history, we have certainly defied the odds and performed worse than you would expect, all things being equal:

- On 5 occasions since the War, we have gone into the last day of the season with the possibility of being relegated, but with our fate in our own hands (1949, 1968, 1981, 1994, 2007). We have been relegated on all 5 occasions. Not only that, but on 4 occasions (1994 being the exception) we had a home game, and only in 1949 did we need to win to stay up. In the 4 other seasons, a draw would have done, and we lost.

- We have lost 4 consecutive FA Cup semi finals, which is the current joint record, and 5 consecutive league or FA Cup semi finals, which is the current worst run. The last 2 times, we made it as a second tier club. There was another second tier club in the semis each time (Wolves in 1998, Watford in 2003), but we didn't draw them. Of course, when we lost to Sunderland in the quarters in 2004, they drew another 2nd tier club in the semi finals.

- We have lost 3 playoff finals (the joint record), all of which were for a PL place (a unique record) and have no wins in 5 playoff appearances.

- Of all of the teams that have played in the 1st Division/PL during the era of European Competition, nobody has played more seasons there than us without qualifying for Europe at least once.

I know it's crude to reduce things to simple probability, as each situation is different, but if a team reaches 5 cup semi finals, 3 playoff finals, and has 5 last day chances to stay up, wouldn't you expect them to succeed at least once?

 

[happyhippy]

Of course, no team has a divine right to be in a certain league or to win trophies. But you have to say that, when you look at our post war history, we have certainly defied the odds and performed worse than you would expect, all things being equal:

Yup, in one off situations we've choked. Still doesn't mean that we should be up there.

- On 5 occasions since the War, we have gone into the last day of the season with the possibility of being relegated, but with our fate in our own hands (1949, 1968, 1981, 1994, 2007). We have been relegated on all 5 occasions. Not only that, but on 4 occasions (1994 being the exception) we had a home game, and only in 1949 did we need to win to stay up. In the 4 other seasons, a draw would have done, and we lost.

Your point is what in which case? If you accept that we have no divine right to be in the top flight, then I see no relevance in quoting our ability to choke at times. Obviously matches like Leicester, Darlington, Cardiff passed you by.

- We have lost 4 consecutive FA Cup semi finals, which is the current joint record, and 5 consecutive league or FA Cup semi finals, which is the current worst run. The last 2 times, we made it as a second tier club. There was another second tier club in the semis each time (Wolves in 1998, Watford in 2003), but we didn't draw them. Of course, when we lost to Sunderland in the quarters in 2004, they drew another 2nd tier club in the semi finals.

We also had to reach that level, and as you say, we've done it as a side from outside the top flight, which I'm sure many of our contemporaries in our current division would like to have.

- We have lost 3 playoff finals (the joint record), all of which were for a PL place (a unique record) and have no wins in 5 playoff appearances.

- Of all of the teams that have played in the 1st Division/PL during the era of European Competition, nobody has played more seasons there than us without qualifying for Europe at least once.

And we were never even eligible, bar through the Cup or the League Cup. Just the same as anyone else outside of the top 22 in the League structure.

I suppose you think that Wolves' couple of years of going to Europe (even a final in 1972) counts as current success? They had more years in Division Four than we did. Are they less or more successful?

I know it's crude to reduce things to simple probability, as each situation is different, but if a team reaches 5 cup semi finals, 3 playoff finals, and has 5 last day chances to stay up, wouldn't you expect them to succeed at least once?

Four play-off finals really. We lost to Bristol City too over two legs, and got relegated. Probably, yes, we should have got at least one win there, but the facts are that there were different players, different fans, and different board members.

Alea iacta est may be fair, however aleae iactae fuerunt covers a league, or Cup situation more accurately. The numbers can always go against you.

Birmingham City have a shite shield as their only trophy. Are they above us in the pecking order? Middlesboghorror had won fuck all in over 100 years. Granted, they did get to Europe, but they have one trophy.

How far behind them are we, and are we any different?

 

[Revolution]

There's no need to defend United's honour. All I was saying is that the odds are against this sort of futility. I agree this doesn't mean we should be up there, but if we hadn't choked we might be up there. We might have reached a cup final and played in Europe. We might not have got relegated and had to dismantle a team....

Anyway, since you bring it up, dealing with the 3 teams you mentioned:

Since the War, Wolves have won the league 3 times, the FA Cup once, and the League Cup twice. We've won nothing. They have reached the UEFA Cup final. They've played in Europe on 7 occasions, not a couple. We've not done that. They are in the PL and we are not. They have beaten us in a play off final. In the last 20 years, we are probably dead level, but their post war achievements are far greater than ours.

Birmingham have won one league cup, and it was some time ago. It is in living memory, however. They also reached the league Cup final in 2001. We have never done that. They are in the PL now. We are not. They have played in Europe 4 times, finishing runners up in the old fairs cup twice. We have never been there. they have spent 6 of the last 10 years in the PL. We've spent 1.

Middlesbrough have spent all of the last 10 years bar this one in the PL. They were of course trophyless until 2004, but reached 3 cup finals in the 1990s. We last reached one in 1936. Then they won the league Cup in 2004. They played in Europe twice and got to the UEFA Cup final.

So yes, I'd put all of those teams ahead of us in the post War pecking order and the only one we can argue we've done better than in the last 20 years is Wolves.

And we were never even eligible, bar through the Cup or the League Cup. Just the same as anyone else outside of the top 22 in the League structure.

Of course we were eligible. We could have made the UEFA Cup. other teams did it in the 18 years we've been in the top league since that competition exisited in one form or another.

Four play-off finals really. We lost to Bristol City too over two legs, and got relegated. That was a semi. Walsall beat City in the final,

Probably, yes, we should have got at least one win there, but the facts are that there were different players, different fans, and different board members.

I know. I said so in my post. The point was to show how unlikely it was statistically.

 

[Jon Bon]

I believe that statistically he is the most successful manager we've' ever had.

I'm sorry owd love, I don't pay my money to pour over pretty looking statistics. If I did, I'd save a fortune and get Championship Manager instead of a season ticket...