Changing managers

[ilovesufc]

Surely it can be no coincidence that the only relative success we've had in recent times (ie promotion to the prem) was under a manager who had been in place for 7 years? And that since his sacking we have seen various managers through the door, no consistency and the steady decline of the club.
If you look back on Warnocks reign, you will remember that a lot of the time was spent moaning about how we played, the style, the players, the "tactical naivity" (a favourite comment of our fan "experts") etc etc. We made many rubbish signings that actually sometimes worked out well, and didn't spend much money. But we got there in the end with a team that had been gradually assembled, with youngsters brought through and a team spirit fostered. We saw plenty of crap games and disappointments along the way.
I think the fans calling for Clough to be sacked need to look at the bigger picture for United and our long term progression. Now I am in no way suggesting that we should take 7 years to gain promotion back to the Championship, and I agree that this season the aim has to be to get out of this rubbish league, but surely, yet another management change cannot be the answer? Recent history shows us that no one is going to come into this club and wave a magic wand. Clough has to be given time and by that I mean more than a season and a bit!
I think as fans we demand so much now as we see so much quality football on the TV, let's not forget we are in the old 3RD DIVISION (depressingly), it's not going to be that great and neither are our players. Look back on the dross we've seen in the past, but we got there in the end. I think if we hold our nerve and stick by Clough for the long term we will get there again.
This doesn't mean I agree with everything he does (& what manager in the country has the full backing of all the fans, all the time?), but continuing the cycle of quick fix managers is not the answer!
UTB as ever.

 

[HoodedClaw]

Surely it can be no coincidence that the only relative success we've had in recent times (ie promotion to the prem) was under a manager who had been in place for 7 years? And that since his sacking we have seen various managers through the door, no consistency and the steady decline of the club.
If you look back on Warnocks reign, you will remember that a lot of the time was spent moaning about how we played, the style, the players, the "tactical naivity" (a favourite comment of our fan "experts") etc etc. We made many rubbish signings that actually sometimes worked out well, and didn't spend much money. But we got there in the end with a team that had been gradually assembled, with youngsters brought through and a team spirit fostered. We saw plenty of crap games and disappointments along the way.
I think the fans calling for Clough to be sacked need to look at the bigger picture for United and our long term progression. Now I am in no way suggesting that we should take 7 years to gain promotion back to the Championship, and I agree that this season the aim has to be to get out of this rubbish league, but surely, yet another management change cannot be the answer? Recent history shows us that no one is going to come into this club and wave a magic wand. Clough has to be given time and by that I mean more than a season and a bit!
I think as fans we demand so much now as we see so much quality football on the TV, let's not forget we are in the old 3RD DIVISION (depressingly), it's not going to be that great and neither are our players. Look back on the dross we've seen in the past, but we got there in the end. I think if we hold our nerve and stick by Clough for the long term we will get there again.
This doesn't mean I agree with everything he does (& what manager in the country has the full backing of all the fans, all the time?), but continuing the cycle of quick fix managers is not the answer!
UTB as ever.

Out of curiosity how long would you give him to get us promoted?

I don't want him sacked now but I would need convincing that he's the right man if he doesn't get us up this year (as I think the board might, I'm sure JP has said that he himself is under pressure from the Prince to make sure we go up this season.)

It would help his cause, certainly with the fans, if he could get the players playing like we're 1 down with 10 to go from the start of matches.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Out of curiosity how long would you give him to get us promoted?

I don't want him sacked now but I would need convincing that he's the right man if he doesn't get us up this year (as I think the board might, I'm sure JP has said that he himself is under pressure from the Prince to make sure we go up this season.)

It would help his cause, certainly with the fans, if he could get the players playing like we're 1 down with 10 to go from the start of matches.

Perhaps when we get the ball for the first time we score an OG?

Then we can change our mind set and go for it.

 

[SwindonBladeJnr]

I would personally allow Clough this season and next. The aim should be promotion this season but even if we fail to achieve it, I would still stick with him and next season really would become last chance saloon.

 

[JJBlade]

Maybe the co-incidence is that we can only produce a limited amount of success by using hoofball.

Hoofball allows a cheap, tacky, crap unambitious football club to get away with signing the shit players required to play it and have a minimal amount of success. Any other style of football requires decent investment into the team.
It's no co-incidence that ever since we tried to eliminate hoofball from our game we have struggled.

So, the best we can hope for for the rest of eternity is to win but still be shit.

 

[HoodedClaw]

I would personally allow Clough this season and next. The aim should be promotion this season but even if we fail to achieve it, I would still stick with him and next season really would become last chance saloon.

Fair enough. Does it matter where we finish this season?

I could possibly be convinced to give him another season if we lose in the playoff final. If we finish below 7th, in a much weaker league this season, I think I'll be leaning towards getting rid.

 

[HoodedClaw]

Maybe the co-incidence is that we can only produce a limited amount of success by using hoofball.

Hoofball allows a cheap, tacky, crap unambitious football club to get away with signing the shit players required to play it and have a minimal amount of success. Any other style of football requires decent investment into the team.
It's no co-incidence that ever since we tried to eliminate hoofball from our game we have struggled.

So, the best we can hope for for the rest of eternity is to win but still be shit.

 

[OllyBlade]

Fair enough. Does it matter where we finish this season?

I could possibly be convinced to give him another season if we lose in the playoff final. If we finish below 7th, in a much weaker league this season, I think I'll be leaning towards getting rid.

I think he should be sacked for lower than a 6th placed finish. Last 2 times we have lost the play-off final we have stuck with a manager and seen serious regression afterwards. And as I posted on another friend, in relation to the OP, there is recent evidence of clubs of similar stature to us sacking a manager when they seemed to be slipping out of the automatic picture, and they went on great runs (Southampton and Wednesday are the clubs). Problem with this situation is how much backing we think Clough is actually getting. I am of the opinion he has been backed sufficiently and the underperformance is his fault.

 

[SandyMcBlade]

What most fans want is a manager they can trust and I personally think Nigel is a manager we can trust to stick by us even when were doing well and not be off at the first whiff of a job in the Prem if we have a good run.
That may not sound like much to some who would prefer a manager who would spend millions to do a quick fix and then ditch us for a bigger club at the drop of a hat, leaving us to drop back down the leagues with a multimillion pounds worth of debt around our necks..
We all liked Nigel when he pulled us back from disaster with his set up not to lose tactics and I'm as frustrated as the rest that he's still playing that way.
But Nigel's no mug, he'll change it and.probably already is doing...

 

[Bladesway]

Last 2 times we have lost the play-off final we have stuck with a manager and seen serious regression afterwards.

And why on both occasions do you think that is? Selling good players and replacing them with inferior players. We were top of the league Christmas 2 seasons ago but sold our striker who by all accounts was a lazy bastard who just scored goals. What would we give to have a lazy bastard like that now.

We need to stop selling the best players and get rid of the dross.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

What most fans want is a manager they can trust and I personally think Nigel is a manager we can trust to stick by us even when were doing well and not be off at the first whiff of a job in the Prem if we have a good run.
That may not sound like much to some who would prefer a manager who would spend millions to do a quick fix and then ditch us for a bigger club at the drop of a hat, leaving us to drop back down the leagues with a multimillion pounds worth of debt around our necks..
We all liked Nigel when he pulled us back from disaster with his set up not to lose tactics and I'm as frustrated as the rest that he's still playing that way.
But Nigel's no mug, he'll change it and.probably already is doing...

Agree SandyMcBlade . Mr Clough will be as frustrated as we are , if not more . He is like us Blades , loyal to the cause.

He was definitely in the right place at the right time for us , and did pull us out of the abyss last season. However after a poor preseason and some awful performances , we are still in the mix . We are not that bad of a side , and Mr Clough will already be looking at altering the side , with players coming in , and going out. This process will have already started .

The style of play in my opinion will not change , but the playing staff will . Now is the time for Mr McCabe and Mr Prince to show there true colours and intentions , by backing Mr Clough on the final player recruitment in January .Mr Clough to spend wisely with the right calibre of recruitment .



UTB

 

[Ben_1982]

I believe finances have and are their but Clough comes across as reluctant to spend to me

 

[SwindonBladeJnr]

Fair enough. Does it matter where we finish this season?

I could possibly be convinced to give him another season if we lose in the playoff final. If we finish below 7th, in a much weaker league this season, I think I'll be leaning towards getting rid.

Unless we finished much lower than last season (which to me would be anywhere from 12th downwards) then I would still keep him.
I'd allow him one last summer to ship out those he doesn't want and bring in more that he does. The likelihood would be that by that stage, the whole playing squad would be made up of players he has signed and none that he inherited (youth apart). He would have had a good amount of time to set the playing side of the club up in the way in which he wants it. Some of the younger ones that we think have promise may be ready to really come to the fore (Diego if he is still here, Reed, Adams).

If with all of that, he then failed to get out of this division it would be time up.

Last season was a salvage job, and he exceeded expectation by a million miles. For me that does buy him some good will this season.

It's interesting looking at it with hindsight; had we finished, say 10-12th last season, we would have been satisfied that he had arrested the alarming slump Weir had overseen and this season he would have had much less pressure on him. We'd probably all be a little more forgiving this season as a result.

 

[ilovesufc]

Out of curiosity how long would you give him to get us promoted?

I don't want him sacked now but I would need convincing that he's the right man if he doesn't get us up this year (as I think the board might, I'm sure JP has said that he himself is under pressure from the Prince to make sure we go up this season.)

It would help his cause, certainly with the fans, if he could get the players playing like we're 1 down with 10 to go from the start of matches.

Personally I would give him this season and next, even if we fail to get promoted this season. if he was to get sacked this season, I really don't think starting again, Again, would do us any good at all.
I agree that we need to start games at a higher tempo and get in the oppositions faces from the whistle. However I think the players have to the a certain amount of responsibility for this too - not just the manager.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Personally I would give him this season and next, even if we fail to get promoted this season. if he was to get sacked this season, I really don't think starting again, Again, would do us any good at all.
I agree that we need to start games at a higher tempo and get in the oppositions faces from the whistle. However I think the players have to the a certain amount of responsibility for this too - not just the manager.

In five years time we'll be in a good position if we stick with Nigel. Trouble is football fans want it now and I'm no different but this time I can take the setbacks a bit easier but only a little bit easier so sort it Nigel and get yer hand in yer pocket McC to ease the pain.


I've said it before but the higher we get the better Nigel will be.

 

[ilovesufc]

I think he should be sacked for lower than a 6th placed finish. Last 2 times we have lost the play-off final we have stuck with a manager and seen serious regression afterwards. And as I posted on another friend, in relation to the OP, there is recent evidence of clubs of similar stature to us sacking a manager when they seemed to be slipping out of the automatic picture, and they went on great runs (Southampton and Wednesday are the clubs). Problem with this situation is how much backing we think Clough is actually getting. I am of the opinion he has been backed sufficiently and the underperformance is his fault.

Southampton to me are a bit of a freak side - I actually can't quite believe the journey they've been on in the past few years or where they are now - good luck to them but that's not the reality for most teams. I think holding up Wednesday as an example to follow in one way backs up the argument for not chopping and changing managers. The one they got in who gained them what was a fairly lucky promotion soon became hated & sacked after many abject performances, and the latest one isn't faring much better. They have average players, are in debt which isn't helped of course by paying up contracts and by all accounts I hear from fans of the dark side, could end up in real trouble this season. When we get promoted, which we will I'm sure even if it is next season, I'd like to do it properly with a settled team & management that can actually take us forward.

 

[OllyBlade]

When we get promoted, which we will I'm sure even if it is next season, I'd like to do it properly with a settled team & management that can actually take us forward.

I suppose this is the bit we disagree on. I think you are right in the other 2 clubs I mentioned and I was perhaps playing devil's advocate a bit. Southampton clearly had players playing well below their level for a few seasons, whilst I feel more confident about our ownership structure than if we were owned by Mandaric.

But I think it's ignoring a real lack of progress in the team in key areas necessary for promotion to put such blind faith in Clough. I simply don't believe he will get the team scoring enough goals to ever get us up. Even in the great run of last season, we weren't scoring that many goals and that trend has continued despite strong backing in the transfer window and nearly half a season to sort it out. In the summer I can readily envisage us losing arguably the key player in that respect in Jamie Murphy, and then we are stuck with having to trust in Clough again to rebuild. I don't actually think we should sack him at the moment, to clarify, but will be quite surprised if the day we are promoted to the Championship, Clough is in the dugout.

 

[ShockingBadBuy]

Four things I think we should value in Nigel, whatever the flaws we may think he has.

1: For the first time in ages we have a manager who clearly knows the game inside out, who represents the club well, and who conducts himself in front of the press with dignity and honesty. Managers like these are not ten a penny at any level, let alone in this piss poor division. Whatever is happening on the pitch, Nigel, for me, has sounded from the start like a man we can trust with the stewardship of our club.

2: He is clearly also a man who does his best to act out of principle--be it his emphasis on "character", or his determination to stick by ways of setting up a team and playing the game. Like any man or woman with strong principles, this can make him maddening as fuck at times, especially when performances aren't great and results go against us. But at least we have a man at the helm who has a clear vision of what he wants to achieve, medium and long term, and the guts and belief to stick by certain values to get there. In the cess pit of incompetence and corruption that is pro football today, we are lucky to have him.

3: He inspires a clear loyalty in players who know him from the past--The Beard being the most obvious example

4: I also can't get around the fact that he was one of my favourite players of the late '80s

I also don't buy the argument that 4-5-1 won't work, full stop. Which means I don't think we can blame Nigel wholly for recent results. Any system will work if the players are good enough, or intelligent enough, or drilled enough, to make it work. Sitting right behind the dugouts in the South Stand, the most striking thing about Nige is how involved he is in the game from the off (contrast with everyone else back to Warnock}. Nigel spends more time shouting at defensive lines or midfielders who are too deep, players who don't make attacking runs, and attackers who choose the less aggressive option, than anyone I can remember. He and whatssisname are also constantly urging us to get the ball forward quicker than we do, and are endlessly, loudly and visibly frustrated when we don't.

So I'm not sure that the idea of "Negative Nigel" is entirely fair. I get it, particularly re the ridiculous 4-6-0. And, as per above, men with principles can be stubborn and maddening, and sometimes a bit blind to the flaws in their vision. But when players bottle the difficult option, constantly give the ball away, bang in shite crosses, lose their man at set pieces, and generally play like average 3rd division players, it doesn't matter what system they play in.

I actually thought there were spells against MK Donkeys when we did go two up top, albeit they were a long way apart from one another. Did it make a difference ? Did it fuck. The reason being that too many of our players did not seem capable of doing the basics.

Personally, I can't think of a more stupid move than even contemplating getting rid of Nigel. Frustrating, stubborn and baffling though he may be. Perhaps it runs in the family ...

 

[mark hones]

Excellent OP, and despite being sick to the back teeth of the shite that the team keeps dishing up, I have to agree that dumping Clough would be a big mistake. He performed miracles last season and has to be given at the very least two full seasons to try and get things sorted. We're an average 3rd division club, managers aren't queuing up to manage us so for me I'd much rather give this bloke a good go and see how it pans out.

We're all pissed off at being in this shit league, we're all pissed off about playing shite but what can you do with poor players and a boardroom full of bull shitters?

Cloughie May not be winning us over with his tactics, and a good few of his signings haven't been great but you try getting good players in with the fuckwits that we have holding the purse strings. We keep changing managers but things aren't getting better, think that proves that it isn't them that's to blame. Our problem is McCabe, has been for years, and we'll never do owt while that clueless git as part of the club. The mystery Prince is a joke, he's about as nebulous as you can get. Does anyone honestly believe that this bloke has a clue, or gives a fuck about our club? Seriously, if he has pots of cash, or if he even exists, could you honestly see him sitting there and doing nowt about our current plight? Two decent signings would sort us out but will our money men back that? Will they fuck, they never do because they don't care, they aren't Blades.

Calling for Cloughs head is a smokescreen, it's McCabe and his cronies we need rid of.

 

[Dkc]

Calling for Cloughs head is a smokescreen, it's McCabe and his cronies we need rid of.

Who are his cronies?

McCabe has made plenty of decisions that have in hindsight turned out to be wank, I'm sure even he will admit that. But at the time plenty if not most fans supported his decisions to e.g. sack Warnock, appoint Robson, appoint Adams, appoint Weir, support Ched.

It's not a popular thing to say, but I am positive that McCabe is just as big a Blade as anyone else. Results like the one and Tuesday night leave him just as gutted as we are. Anyone who's had the chance to speak to him will know that.

We've had some awful luck in the last few years but I wouldn't put it down to any one individual.

 

[Revolution]

I actually thought there were spells against MK Donkeys when we did go two up top, albeit they were a long way apart from one another. Did it make a difference ? Did it fuck. The reason being that too many of our players did not seem capable of doing the basics.

Well argued post save for this bit. Who signed most of these players? Who is picking them?

 

[mark hones]

Who are his cronies?

McCabe has made plenty of decisions that have in hindsight turned out to be wank, I'm sure even he will admit that. But at the time plenty if not most fans supported his decisions to e.g. sack Warnock, appoint Robson, appoint Adams, appoint Weir, support Ched.

It's not a popular thing to say, but I am positive that McCabe is just as big a Blade as anyone else. Results like the one and Tuesday night leave him just as gutted as we are. Anyone who's had the chance to speak to him will know that.

We've had some awful luck in the last few years but I wouldn't put it down to any one individual.

Any Blade who has the cash that he has, who bangs on about being a Blade like he does, and who has the power to change things for the better but chooses not to is far from a Blade to me. We need a striker, we can all see that but Mr Blade who has the ability to do something about it chooses not to, some Blade he is.

As to awful luck well get a grip, after a number of years the "we're really unlucky" argument really begins to grind.

 

[Harry's Game]

I would personally allow Clough this season and next. The aim should be promotion this season but even if we fail to achieve it, I would still stick with him and next season really would become last chance saloon.

Next season we will be playing home games in front 13,000. - 14,000 every week if we are still in this League. That's unsustainable for a club like this. We would have no choice but to sell players like Murphy.

We had to get up this season.

 

[SwindonBladeJnr]

Next season we will be playing home games in front 13,000. - 14,000 every week if we are still in this League. That's unsustainable for a club like this. We would have no choice but to sell players like Murphy.

We had to get up this season.

That may well happen, and as I've already stated, Clough should get us up this season. That had to be the aim and although there is a nagging doubt about how much backing he has really had in terms of funds, I personally think he has pretty much what he needs at his disposal.

However, hypothetically, if we find ourselves in this division again at the start of next season, what is to say that a change of managers will help? We are on manager number three (four if we include caretaking) already and we still find ourselves here.

I would rather say 'right, the bloke hasn't done what we wanted him to do yet but he now has absolutely no excuses, he has a had a generous amount of time and two summers to build his squad and get players bought into his methods. Let's give it one last go with him rather than bringing in yet another manager who will more than likely want to make big changes all over again, with no guarantee of success'.

Short term thinking is what has got us into this mess - I'd like to see the club as whole put 100% faith into Clough and give him time. Sacking managers in quick succession is not the answer for me.

 

[Wapping Blade]

Next season we will be playing home games in front 13,000. - 14,000 every week if we are still in this League. That's unsustainable for a club like this. We would have no choice but to sell players like Murphy.

We had to get up this season.

Len - is that you? The doom-sayers have been saying this for years yet it's never happened.

 

[blade too long]

Next season we will be playing home games in front 13,000. - 14,000 every week if we are still in this League. That's unsustainable for a club like this. We would have no choice but to sell players like Murphy.

We had to get up this season.

No we wont wed get 15/16k in div 4
we thrive on being run of the mill , if we arent bad enough theres nothing to moan about, Half wouldnt turn up
90% OF POSTS ON HERE ARE MOANS , WE LUV IT JUST LUV IT

 

[Harry's Game]

That may well happen, and as I've already stated, Clough should get us up this season. That had to be the aim and although there is a nagging doubt about how much backing he has really had in terms of funds, I personally think he has pretty much what he needs at his disposal.

However, hypothetically, if we find ourselves in this division again at the start of next season, what is to say that a change of managers will help? We are on manager number three (four if we include caretaking) already and we still find ourselves here.

I would rather say 'right, the bloke hasn't done what we wanted him to do yet but he now has absolutely no excuses, he has a had a generous amount of time and two summers to build his squad and get players bought into his methods. Let's give it one last go with him rather than bringing in yet another manager who will more than likely want to make big changes all over again, with no guarantee of success'.

Short term thinking is what has got us into this mess - I'd like to see the club as whole put 100% faith into Clough and give him time. Sacking managers in quick succession is not the answer for me.

Ok last seaon we had about 9,000 season ticket holders, by the time Weir went home crowds were 14.5 - 15k and dropping.

The outstanding run in brought in a lot more pay on the day fans and convinced many of them The club had turned the corner and this was going to be a glorious triumphal season and we sold aprox 14,000 season tickets.

The failure not only to contend for the top two but the dismal football being played is not going to encourage those who returned to the season ticket fold to renew again, back to 9,000 next season at best, also I belive there is such a feeling of being conned and let down this year many pay on the day fans will keep their powder dry at the start of next season as well to see how we start off.

A good start next season and by October we could be getting around 16k, the minimum we need to keep the Wolf from the door... A poor start with poor football and 13-14k is more likely.

 

[Jonboy60]

In five years time we'll be in a good position if we stick with Nigel. Trouble is football fans want it now and I'm no different but this time I can take the setbacks a bit easier but only a little bit easier so sort it Nigel and get yer hand in yer pocket McC to ease the pain.


I've said it before but the higher we get the better Nigel will be.

In five years time Nigel may be here, but Im getting on a bit, so may not be. Would like to get a modicum of success before then.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

In five years time Nigel may be here, but Im getting on a bit, so may not be. Would like to get a modicum of success before then.

Let's hope Nige reads that and thinks "bollocks to it, let's get promoted"

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Any Blade who has the cash that he has, who bangs on about being a Blade like he does, and who has the power to change things for the better but chooses not to is far from a Blade to me. We need a striker, we can all see that but Mr Blade who has the ability to do something about it chooses not to, some Blade he is.

As to awful luck well get a grip, after a number of years the "we're really unlucky" argument really begins to grind.

We do need a striker but that has been apparent all season. Mr Clough is the football manager and funds are available and have been all season.

This is Mr Cloughs problem as manager , and has sorted it with COG . On players already on the books , . Higdson and McNulty have yet to do the business , which makes the situation worst. Fitness is the key with the three strikers concerned ,and let us all hope they hit the ground running before the new year .

Mr McCabe has made some horrendous decisions both managerial and financially . However without him we would have gone bust . Sheffield as a city , is full of two bob millionaires who can completely ruin a football club , and we have had our fair share with Whoolhouse , McDonald and Hinchliffe.

The board has a whole , have taken bad advice both from other club managers ( Sir Alex and Moyes ) for our previous managerial appointments and also funders / banks relating to loans and refinancing .

The Mr Prince appointment ( equal Shares ) is still in its infancy , and only time will tell on this partnership of ownership.

Mr McCabe and his two sons are passionate about the Blades and want success as much as we do . It is beyond me why they do not just say fuck it and walk away from the club. Actually i will tell you why - because they are committed blades , as much as us supporters are .

We have to be very careful what we wish for .

UTB