The Blame Game

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super_pig said:
ooh.. kin 'ell get me a lawyer.. :D
actually fyi and you want to be pedantic (you started it sorry).. trends don't have to merely consider 'results'. trends can refer to a number of parameters.. the trend i am talking about is that we are playing crap, look unbalanced and are toothless up front seeing as we didn't buy a striker
ahh but we're sixth.. that was the excuse the blackwell ites used to come out with and i got murdered on here for suggesting that we were a busted flush and it would all go tits up because we were crap
so . the overall trend is that we are shipping goals and look toothless up front.. never a good combination IME
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That would have been fine if you had said and I may have agreed, however your trend was was based singularly in the original quote on us being mullered. To be further pedantic ;)
 

I wonder if the messages / reaction were the same after we list by a three goal deficit last February at Crewe.
 
Pierre's PC said:
That would have been fine if you had said and I may have agreed, however your trend was was based singularly in the original quote on us being mullered. To be further pedantic ;)
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actually it wasn't what i intended but i admittedly didn't word it very well . Swiss is right i suppose.. but five fucking two.. jesus..
 
I thonk we are doing really well considering the recruitment policy
Think clough has done well to keep us out of tge bottom three with the size of the budget hes working on
 
Houso said:
Why on earth can't you debate it rationally now? The people being critical in this thread are offering reasoned arguments as to what their concerns are and where we may improve.

Why can't you explain why or where you disagree?
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When the thread starts off saying we're an embarrassment on the 20th of September while being 3 pts off 2nd then there's not really anywhere else it's going but the gutter.

Yes, there are problems. Yes, today's result is concerning. Basham makes you think "hmm... maybe Monty wasn't that bad"; Higdon makes Shipperley look like Steve Kabba Mk 1; we have nowt else up front but an embarrassment, really?

"Game-changing" is clearly a load of bollocks, and Cloughy is clearly having to do it on the cheap, and as such we've got a young squad who are learning their trade and results like this may crop up every now and again. e.g. McGahey reminds me exactly of Harry Maguire - who remembers the bollocks he used to drop on a frequent basis 3 years ago when he became a first team regular?

It's not about saying "1 out of 7, 1 out of 7", but surely by having the 1 in 7 in the first place the players have built up enough brownie points for there to not be this level of manic hysteria whenever we do lose?
 
In an effort to be constructive I have to say I blame Cloughie for the games we have lost this season. I'm a Clough disciple but he's made mistakes and I think it's far more about that than the quality of our players.

I think he's getting something wrong with Basham, either where he's deploying him or signing him at all, offers nothing at the moment. He's making too many unforced changes every game and sending a centre back out on loan after just signing him is bizarre. He also needs to play with a striker that can play on his own.

Murphy needs to be dropped as well. Offering nothing at the moment. Flynn should be in ahead of him. Still early days though.
 
Rodders said:
When the thread starts off saying we're an embarrassment on the 20th of September while being 3 pts off 2nd then there's not really anywhere else it's going but the gutter.

Yes, there are problems. Yes, today's result is concerning. Basham makes you think "hmm... maybe Monty wasn't that bad"; Higdon makes Shipperley look like Steve Kabba Mk 1; we have nowt else up front but an embarrassment, really?

"Game-changing" is clearly a load of bollocks, and Cloughy is clearly having to do it on the cheap, and as such we've got a young squad who are learning their trade and results like this may crop up every now and again. e.g. McGahey reminds me exactly of Harry Maguire - who remembers the bollocks he used to drop on a frequent basis 3 years ago when he became a first team regular?

It's not about saying "1 out of 7, 1 out of 7", but surely by having the 1 in 7 in the first place the players have built up enough brownie points for there to not be this level of manic hysteria whenever we do lose?
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We just shipped 5 goals away to Swindon with our first choice defence and two defensive midfielders in the team. I don't know about you, but I consider that incredibly embarrassing. For 80 minutes in the preceding match, we were outplayed by a relegation candidate. I'd consider that embarrassing too. We're a club of Premiership stature playing at below a third tier playoff standard; that's perhaps most embarrassing of all.

And we can keep sticking up for Cloughie by saying he's doing on it on the cheap; problem is, he's said we have the money. And the money we do have (and did have) has been invariably spent on players that other clubs didn't want, not who we decided to go out and get. Higdon would have been playing for Chesterfield now if they'd offered him more cash. For me, that's not good recruitment, it smacks of desperation.

Again, one in seven is great, but can we not also consider some context and be a touch more pragmatic?
 
Rodders said:
When the thread starts off saying we're an embarrassment on the 20th of September while being 3 pts off 2nd then there's not really anywhere else it's going but the gutter.

Yes, there are problems. Yes, today's result is concerning. Basham makes you think "hmm... maybe Monty wasn't that bad"; Higdon makes Shipperley look like Steve Kabba Mk 1; we have nowt else up front but an embarrassment, really?

"Game-changing" is clearly a load of bollocks, and Cloughy is clearly having to do it on the cheap, and as such we've got a young squad who are learning their trade and results like this may crop up every now and again. e.g. McGahey reminds me exactly of Harry Maguire - who remembers the bollocks he used to drop on a frequent basis 3 years ago when he became a first team regular?

It's not about saying "1 out of 7, 1 out of 7", but surely by having the 1 in 7 in the first place the players have built up enough brownie points for there to not be this level of manic hysteria whenever we do lose?
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Good post Rodders ,but i don't think it's the losing what the problem is,i think it's the manner in which we did it.
 
Patrick Suffaux said:
In an effort to be constructive I have to say I blame Cloughie for the games we have lost this season. I'm a Clough disciple but he's made mistakes and I think it's far more about that than the quality of our players.

I think he's getting something wrong with Basham, either where he's deploying him or signing him at all, offers nothing at the moment. He's making too many unforced changes every game and sending a centre back out on loan after just signing him is bizarre. He also needs to play with a striker that can play on his own.

Murphy needs to be dropped as well. Offering nothing at the moment. Flynn should be in ahead of him. Still early days though.
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And I'd agree with that too.

There seems to be an argument from some at the moment that if you're critical of Clough, you're in effect saying "Clough out". Couldn't be further from the truth with me. I wouldn't take another manager, but he's making some poor decisions at the moment as he has done since pre-season. There's nothing wrong with pointing them out for the sake of discussion.
 
Houso said:
And I'd agree with that too.

There seems to be an argument from some at the moment that if you're critical of Clough, you're in effect saying "Clough out". Couldn't be further from the truth with me. I wouldn't take another manager, but he's making some poor decisions at the moment as he has done since pre-season. There's nothing wrong with pointing them out for the sake of discussion.
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Totally agree that Clough isn't above criticism; that's a healthy place to be as a supporter - I just have a problem with the mass wailing and hysteria that crops up after a defeat when Downton Abbey's not even started on telly yet.
As mentioned earlier, I think Clough's been dealt a shitty hand by the board; the Coady thing the best example of that (I can't believe Liverpool were quoting £1m to sell him for two-thirds of that a couple of weeks later).

He's clearly shopping in the basement bin, and getting young kids and cast-offs. Of the signings so far he can be rightly criticised for Basham and Higdon in my book; obviously something went off with Butler but as we don't know what, it seems slightly unfair to pin all that to Clough, Butler could be an almighty cock-end for all we know. McNulty is only what, 20-21? Still far too early to write him off for me.
As we have such an emphasis on youth, their performances will be up and down each week. Existing players like Murphy. Flynn etc are also inconsistent, that's why they're playing for us!
 
Houso said:
And I'd agree with that too.

There seems to be an argument from some at the moment that if you're critical of Clough, you're in effect saying "Clough out". Couldn't be further from the truth with me. I wouldn't take another manager, but he's making some poor decisions at the moment as he has done since pre-season. There's nothing wrong with pointing them out for the sake of discussion.
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The same, I have always felt he's the man to take us forward and still do. He's tried to be a little bit innovative so far this season and it's worked in a few games, backfired in others. So far his success rate with selection/tactical decisions this season has been about 50-50 and that is reflected by our league position.

I do think if he would let the side settle a bit and reintroduce certain players to the starting lineup we would be ticking along nicely. One or two things that he is persisting with simply aren't working and in a few games we have played well enough as a team to not let it affect us. I think it did today and in the first two games.
 
When everyone is fit I would go with this and leave it to settle for a few games:-

Howard
Davies Alcock Collins McEveley
Flynn Scougall Baxter Doyle Campbell-Ryce
Higdon

Turner, McGahey, Reed, Wallace, Murphy, McNulty, Porter
​
Whether people like Higdon is here nor there. He's a proven goal scorer and should be on the pitch getting used to the team and finding some form. Might not come good but we will never know unless we play him regularly.
 

Liverpool sites will be awash with fans questioning Rodgers after theyve lost 3-1 at west ham , lets face it we won there should piss on them
 
There is no such thing as the "blame game".

The board? Do i blame the board for selling Maguire? No, do i blame the board for not putting them funds towards a replacement? No, we had Butler, how or when his breakdown in relationship with Clough broke down is only Clough knows. Is it a repairable relationship? Probably not as he's back at Walsall.

Clough has clearly been given resources in this market, he's brought in an array of players of all positions, his judgement on more than half of them is shocking, we're a league one club who cannot afford to sign a player who will be on a fair wage and then let the manager and him fall out.

When a club doesn't get results, the manager is always to blame, and this is no different. 8 goals conceded in 2 games, not good enough.

Pressure is on Clough now, this is where he needs to thrive, once our fans in the stadium get on his back, there's no return.

Shoes off anyone??
 
The Recruitment programme since the end of last season has been a shambles you can't deny it, who ever is to blame for that should carry the can, that may not be down to Clough if his interview with RS tonight is anything to go on.
 
There's something not right at the club at all levels.

There's clearly some kind of lies/half truths going on regarding money and transfers.

Clough has done some very odd business.Had the worst pre-season I've ever seen. Picking odd sides/weird formations/baffling tactics. His interviews hardly inspire confidence.

The players have been generally bad as a whole. Not playing as a team. too many players nowhere near their best.
 
It is the signings I am starting to question. We have brought in 2 forwards and kept the others therefore that should be enough to score more goals and we have started to do so, that is 5 in 2 games let's remember. In midfield we lose Coady and bring in 3 plus an academy player through, again this should be enough. That leaves the defence we lose 2 good quality players and replace with 4. We obviously released some I know that but they were fringe, all our signings should be knocking at the door for a first team place however this is not the case. So the question is who is to blame for the poor signings because this for me should be what everyone is questioning. Clough doesn't come across as a man who signs a player for the sake of it, he must of genuinely thought they would improve our side so I ask who has been a successful signing? Please add your own assessment below, I will add mine.

Alcock - seems a steady full back not brayford but doing a job. 7/10
McGahey- to young to be in the side every week IMO we need more experience 5/10
McEveley - early days nothing special IMO but a steady full back 6/10
Butler - no idea what has happened here but should has he should have been a good signing but clearly a mistake. 3/10
Basham - disappointed seems to make the wrong decisions in good positions 3/10
Wallace - been injured can't really comment
JCR - looks ok but think his age gets the better of him 7/10
McNulty - again young think he could come good 7.5/10
Higdon - saved him until last because I think he gets unfair criticism he joined late and everyone expects a world beater I do think he could be ok I could never see him getting 20 goals though. 7/10

I haven't included the likes of Davies because he was here last season. Now my assessment is that the above isn't acceptable and better choices should have been made. Discuss...
 
Alcock - good enough at this level
McGahey- one for the future, thrown in at the deep end he will make mistakes like Harry did
McEveley - to say he came here with no pre season and was thrown in straight away he has done excellent
Butler - he should have been a Morgan type CB, clearly he and Nigel have had a fall out.
Basham - considering the hype about him being championship class he has been truly woeful, is he really a box to box midfielder ? It was said he was a right back/centre back that is where I would try him.
Wallace - hopefully not the new John Ebril his fitness is a real worry and a huge gamble, we really should have tried harder to get Coady
JCR - a really good signing just a shame he is heading towards 30yr old.
McNulty - one for the future ? at 21 his future should be now, I think he will come good with someone alongside him.
Higdon - he has scored elsewhere no reason he shouldn't in League One.

I don't think any one of these players could step up to Championship level next season and for me this is the major disappointment when it was stated we would be in the market for players who could make that step up. So for me the summer signings have mostly been a huge failure. Add to this Nigel's performance so far has also been pretty abysmal, crazy team selections and tactics and even his dealings with the media have been poor, one week he needs 3 more players the week after he doesn't, this week he needs new players again :confused::confused::confused:. Let not get started on the board room lot, does anyone still believe there is money to invest in the team looking at the crocks, journeymen and average league one fare we have signed so far. We have the same owd shit every year you all know how it goes we sell our best player, bring in some that are inferior and then miss out on deadline day, bang on about loan signings but ultimately do fuck all.
Game changing, my arse.
 
I'm feeling a bit more reflective now that Swindon score has sunk in. I really don't think this should be an issue of "Clough can do no wrong" or "Clough out".

I saw the snippet of the interview with NC after the game and wasn't sure if he was shaken by that defeat or shaking with fury - possibly both.

I like NC and I think he is about the best we could have got but like many I have been perplexed by some of his selections and tactics at times and also questioning the effectiveness of his "backroom transfer team" assembled - from player identification to bringing home the bacon in the shape of quality signings (it's seemed a bit hit and miss to me at best).

Reading the posts above it reminded me of Rampage's post on,Oct 22, 2013 "Nigel Clough - opinions from a Derby fan". . Its worth a re-read I think if you have the time.

Some of the things he said - " His footballing philosophy is essentially to keep the ball on the ground doing the work, and to press hard to get it back if it’s lost. Which is great – when it works. Too often we were caught out by a lack of a plan B from Clough, and he almost never made a substitution before the 70th minute. We also saw outrageous levels of negativity when holding on to a lead, especially away from home. A master tactician he most certainly is not."

On transfers - "He was a lot more hit than miss.......I’m all for scouting the lower leagues and Scotland, but that was as far as his scouting network ever went, which I’m sure made the job much more difficult than it needed to be.......We did miss out on a lot of targets though. He point blank refused to have a Director of Football, and his brother Simon was our head scout. The way we went about our transfers felt a bit…amateurish. If you don’t ask, you don’t get – but with Clough’s management team, we asked and too often we didn’t get, and it really held us back. It’s one of the things the board were allegedly growing tired of...... Clough was also very frugal with money and it’s said that he didn’t spend some of his available cash ......"

Overall " A lot of people (at Derby) have found it difficult to come to terms with the fact Clough never got to see out what he started – but it was just taking way, way too long ...."

Its a longish post (with positive and negative aspects) and it seems balanced, thoughtful and thought provoking.

It is concerning how we are beginning to see some echoes of the Derby experience here. I don't think it fair on NC to put him on a pedestal (we have a national obsession with building people up to knock them down at times I think) nor do I think he is the wrong bloke. We learn from experience and, if Rampage's assessment is correct, NC has some areas he needs to improve on (who hasn't) and, in my view, the Board needs to work with him in those areas and not just stand back in case it all goes wrong.

If it comes to the point of "Clough out" maybe that should be Simon Clough not Nigel, although ultimately Nigel carries the can and he is very loyal.

Just some thoughts - UTB
 
It will be interesting to see the reaction of some of the players to Clough's after-match comments there - without singling them out by name, it was pretty clear that the blame for today lies firmly at the feet of Collins and Basham in the manager's eyes. He excused Magahey as being young and brought in as fourth choice and praised Reed for his performance when he came onto the pitch. Also, with the mentions of Brayford/Maguire, that seems a dig at Butler and possible criticism of Alcock (though I think that would be harsh based on what I've seen this season). The fact that both Collins and Basham were dragged off suggests to me that they're the main culprits for Clough tonight and I'll be interested in how the pair react.

I didn't go to Colchester or Swindon but I'm not surprised that today turned out to be the point we got exposed. Whilst I understand the reactions of some, Swindon away is ALWAYS tough at this level, whoever you are, and it was always likely to be one of the tougher games we faced. If you'd said we'd lose two of our opening five away games, Swindon would have been top of my list for one we'd lose - even with Preston and Peterborough in there. Always have a good home record and are always in and around the Play Off area. Whilst 5-2 sounds like a battering, getting back to 3-2 and having a go and going down 5-2 swinging is better than meekly going down 3-0 as it seemed after an hour. Problems, yes. Tactical issues, yes. But remember we were playing one of the better home sides in the division if not the best.

The reaction next Saturday will be key now - if we bounce back against Gillingham with a win, we're 1 defeat in 8 and the debacle of today will be forgotten a little. We've not played well yet but we are in and around the top six. The time for worrying is a couple of months away if we're still not playing well or if the results are going against us. Clough's achievements last season mean he deserves the chance to take the full season without questions. Any talk of Clough being outed are ridiculous to say the least.

I think we need to put it into a little perspective - yes, it is disappointing today but we've recovered from a rocky start and we're in contention without hitting anywhere near top form. Clough's comments might prove to be the rocket needed for some of them or it might be time for him to dip into the market. At least we're scoring goals as well now - we've put one right and now the defence are rocking! Typical.
 
It's propably a tad too early to see where the blame may lay if i'm tbh.Cloughy had already used 18 different starters after the 7th league match and this is quite a lot of players at such an early stage of the season,this is where part of the problem could lie.We certainly need a more settled side,then and only then might we start to see better performances.

The board is a very tricky situation to decide whether or not they have any blame at all.The reason i say this is because Cloughy kept saying he's happy with the funds he has,yet he doesn't seem happy with the players he has now.Did he have the funds in the first place to get the players required or was his hands tied?It all seems a bit bizarre to say the least.

There is one thing for sure and that is the way we're playing now is not very enjoyable to watch until we decide to start that is.We are also missing Baxter more than anyone can imagine,he makes things tick.

I keep thinking to myself be patient,but that patience can only last so long and it's how they react now that counts,and that goes for the whole club.
 
Rodders said:
Totally agree that Clough isn't above criticism; that's a healthy place to be as a supporter - I just have a problem with the mass wailing and hysteria that crops up after a defeat when Downton Abbey's not even started on telly yet.
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it's inevitable really..the fans have put up with a lot over the last few seasons and they can see another year of muddling along already.
 
Wombwell_Blade said:
It will be interesting to see the reaction of some of the players to Clough's after-match comments there - without singling them out by name, it was pretty clear that the blame for today lies firmly at the feet of Collins and Basham in the manager's eyes. He excused Magahey as being young and brought in as fourth choice and praised Reed for his performance when he came onto the pitch. Also, with the mentions of Brayford/Maguire, that seems a dig at Butler and possible criticism of Alcock (though I think that would be harsh based on what I've seen this season). The fact that both Collins and Basham were dragged off suggests to me that they're the main culprits for Clough tonight and I'll be interested in how the pair react.

I didn't go to Colchester or Swindon but I'm not surprised that today turned out to be the point we got exposed. Whilst I understand the reactions of some, Swindon away is ALWAYS tough at this level, whoever you are, and it was always likely to be one of the tougher games we faced. If you'd said we'd lose two of our opening five away games, Swindon would have been top of my list for one we'd lose - even with Preston and Peterborough in there. Always have a good home record and are always in and around the Play Off area. Whilst 5-2 sounds like a battering, getting back to 3-2 and having a go and going down 5-2 swinging is better than meekly going down 3-0 as it seemed after an hour. Problems, yes. Tactical issues, yes. But remember we were playing one of the better home sides in the division if not the best.

The reaction next Saturday will be key now - if we bounce back against Gillingham with a win, we're 1 defeat in 8 and the debacle of today will be forgotten a little. We've not played well yet but we are in and around the top six. The time for worrying is a couple of months away if we're still not playing well or if the results are going against us. Clough's achievements last season mean he deserves the chance to take the full season without questions. Any talk of Clough being outed are ridiculous to say the least.

I think we need to put it into a little perspective - yes, it is disappointing today but we've recovered from a rocky start and we're in contention without hitting anywhere near top form. Clough's comments might prove to be the rocket needed for some of them or it might be time for him to dip into the market. At least we're scoring goals as well now - we've put one right and now the defence are rocking! Typical.
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What about bouncing back at orient on Tuesday ???
 

It's clear to a lot of people this squad is just not good enough. NC seemed to indicate in his interview that the board hadn't supported him 'we knew who we wanted in May, scrambling on transfer day,not how we like to work'. I gather the bust up with Butler was over the Captaincy, he'd been promised it, other players supported Doyle, apparently it all turned very ugly.

It is only one defeat in seven, a fact, but it's not been pretty to watch or very convincing. Is NC right manager? I think so, has he made some errors? well who doesn't, will he redeem himself?

As for Gillingham, well they stuffed us at home last year, so who knows. Apparently Mickey Adams is available.

The upsetting bit is we will still carry on going no matter how poor they are, that's the problem with addictions.
 
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