Wallace.

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wizadry said:
So you've seen him once in the league,and you think he's not good enough,please see him play a few more games atleast before slating him.
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Please let me know the minimum amount of games before I can launch in on this one :p
 

I hope when Wallace pulled up it wasn't his groin again.

He's had this injury for 6 months now and it would appear it is chronic. He can't establish himself until it is sorted once and for all.
 
secretchief said:
I don't understand this point of view and never have, I'm sorry wizardry. He isn't going to become a better footballer than he is already.
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Yes but you have only seen him in one friendly and one league game you said,it just seems a bit harsh imo to be judging a player on such a short space of time,so how can you say he won't become a better player?
 
wizadry said:
Yes but you have only seen him in one friendly and one league game you said,it just seems a bit harsh imo to be judging a player on such a short space of time,so how can you say he won't become a better player?
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I accept it might be harsh wizardy, and fair play I won't disagree if you want to call it that. But I think it's reasonable to watch a player and have an opinion on how good they are, or not. It's not my opinion Basham has any strong qualities and I think the stuff about him covering a lot of ground is a bit misleading because he is so often in the wrong place. But he seemed to get quite frustrated towards the end of yesterday's game (with himself and others) - he is clearly trying very hard - we would believe that he is currently playing at the limits of his capacity? So I don't know what improvements could come. He isn't going to get faster or stronger; touch is touch and his is poor; he dwells on the ball... maybe he will come good and score some goals but I don't see it. I think it's just a case of good players being good and poor players being poor... what exactly are we waiting for?
 
secretchief said:
I accept it might be harsh wizardy, and fair play I won't disagree if you want to call it that. But I think it's reasonable to watch a player and have an opinion on how good they are, or not. It's not my opinion Basham has any strong qualities and I think the stuff about him covering a lot of ground is a bit misleading because he is so often in the wrong place. But he seemed to get quite frustrated towards the end of yesterday's game (with himself and others) - he is clearly trying very hard - we would believe that he is currently playing at the limits of his capacity? So I don't know what improvements could come. He isn't going to get faster or stronger; touch is touch and his is poor; he dwells on the ball... maybe he will come good and score some goals but I don't see it. I think it's just a case of good players being good and poor players being poor... what exactly are we waiting for?
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Understand the points,but i disagree with some,not all of them.The question you finish off with is interesting to say the least.We are on a 5 game unbeaten run with Basham in the team so i hope that answers it for you.

I will leave you with this,do you think when Clough came in,we could improve some of the supposable dross we had before he came in,or were they never going to be able to improve?
 
secretchief said:
I accept it might be harsh wizardy, and fair play I won't disagree if you want to call it that. But I think it's reasonable to watch a player and have an opinion on how good they are, or not. It's not my opinion Basham has any strong qualities and I think the stuff about him covering a lot of ground is a bit misleading because he is so often in the wrong place. But he seemed to get quite frustrated towards the end of yesterday's game (with himself and others) - he is clearly trying very hard - we would believe that he is currently playing at the limits of his capacity? So I don't know what improvements could come. He isn't going to get faster or stronger; touch is touch and his is poor; he dwells on the ball... maybe he will come good and score some goals but I don't see it. I think it's just a case of good players being good and poor players being poor... what exactly are we waiting for?
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Jamie Murphy was shit for about 20 games before becoming arguably our best player last season.
 
wizadry said:
Understand the points,but i disagree with some,not all of them.The question you finish off with is interesting to say the least.We are on a 5 game unbeaten run with Basham in the team so i hope that answers it for you.

I will leave you with this,do you think when Clough came in,we could improve some of the supposable dross we had before he came in,or were they never going to be able to improve?
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Well if he has a Coadyesque turnaound to the season and becomes a lynchpin of the side (and scores some goals), feel free to remind me of this!

In answer to the first part of what you say, I will reiterate that I think he is being carried by other, better players around him. Of course I want to keep winning, but at present I am a long way from being persuaded that he is instrumental to it.

Your question is a very good point. I would say the following:

Remember that NC did bomb out quite a lot of dross - even to the point of paying Williams and King off! No-one is going to tell me these players, or Westlake, could have been improved. They needed transferring out, not clean slates.

Post xmas, NC augmented the team with Brayford, and already had Coady as well, both of whom are better than what we have now, which helped the less gifted players around them. Not to play down the role of Scougall. who who was brilliant, and Harris (who was good then!). So the first team was improved with good signings. But as you are probably alluding do, NC's genius in the latter half of last season was to get Murphy and Flynn playing well and being creative (and possibly Doyle after his aberration against Fulham). But we already knew Murphy was a good player, it just wasn't working for him. Can we really say the same about Basham? And Flynn, after his purple patch, has reverted to type a bit.

The pressing, deep-lying, counter-attacking side of the second half of last season didn't have as much of the ball that we are expected to have now. You need more skillful players if you are going to attempt to dominate teams, as we are now attempting to do. Last season the team worked exceptionally hard, but it is easier to play on the counter an in some ways more flattering to the team doing it. I don't see any of Basham's qualities as being helpful to this.

What is the point of scouts if not to make an evaluation on a player's quality based on a small sample size of their career? I'm no scout, but you have to wonder who watched Basham and thought he would be suitable for us.
 
sitwell said:
Jamie Murphy was shit for about 20 games before becoming arguably our best player last season.
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As I have just written , it was clear he had good qualities (pace, control), whereas it isn't clear that Basham does. I don't see the comparison.
 
I would have though plenty watched him play over 44 games in the championship last season.
 
sitwell said:
I would have though plenty watched him play over 44 games in the championship last season.
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Well I don't think being part of that team was anything to shout about. And the fact that hardly any of their fans were bothered about retaining him tells its own story.

What are you arguing? Do you think he is a good player and is playing well, or that he is a good player and we aren't seeing the best of him?

If the latter, why not? What makes you think he will come good?
 
secretchief said:
Well I don't think being part of that team was anything to shout about. And the fact that hardly any of their fans were bothered about retaining him tells its own story.

What are you arguing? Do you think he is a good player and is playing well, or that he is a good player and we aren't seeing the best of him?

If the latter, why not? What makes you think he will come good?
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Being part of a shit Blackpool team doesn't make Basham the worst of their team.

Someone has to put the hard yards in and NC and the management rate Basham (he has gone on record and said so).

He gets beyond who ever plays up top - a very rare commodity at this level - in fact any level. Ray Kennedy and Terry Mac were the best at it donkeys years ago. It is not something you see a lot of these days and if we are to start playing 6 in midfield again with a false nine, then someone has to break forward out of midfield.

It seems the Basham bashers are going to give the lad a hard time - if they do then you are having a go equally at NC as he is the 2nd name on the team sheet after Davies.

Bash Basham all you like - it will fall on deaf ears with Clough and may probably lead to certain supporters being called to visit Meadowhall.

UTB
 
'What is the point of scouts if not to make an evaluation on a player's quality based on a small sample size of their career? I'm no scout, but you have to wonder who watched Basham and thought he would be suitable for us.'

I answered your question ,Clough and his scouts watch him every day ,will have seen him play many games in the Championship ,where he was never dropped ,yet you have seen him play once and decided he is shit.
Am I missing something ?
 
Fulwood Blade said:
Being part of a shit Blackpool team doesn't make Basham the worst of their team.

Someone has to put the hard yards in and NC and the management rate Basham (he has gone on record and said so).

He gets beyond who ever plays up top - a very rare commodity at this level - in fact any level. Ray Kennedy and Terry Mac were the best at it donkeys years ago. It is not something you see a lot of these days and if we are to start playing 6 in midfield again with a false nine, then someone has to break forward out of midfield.

It seems the Basham bashers are going to give the lad a hard time - if they do then you are having a go equally at NC as he is the 2nd name on the team sheet after Davies.

Bash Basham all you like - it will fall on deaf ears with Clough and may probably lead to certain supporters being called to visit Meadowhall.

UTB
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Never said he was the worst of that team, just that that team wasn't good and he was a central feature of it. I know correlation doesn't equal causation though.

Everyone put hard yards in yesterday.

I am not slagging him for the sake of it, I am responding to people speaking on this topic with (what I consider to be) evidence-based assessments.
 
Fulwood Blade said:
It seems the Basham bashers are going to give the lad a hard time - if they do then you are having a go equally at NC as he is the 2nd name on the team sheet after Davies.
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I sincerely hope that those who haven't seen much in him so far, like me, will say so the minute he shows something.

Believing that any of our players are poor is just an emotion that you can't control, but wanting to be proved right is unforgivable.

UTB
 

alcoblade said:
Believing that any of our players are poor is just an emotion that you can't control, but wanting to be proved right is unforgivable.

UTB
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Who are you referring to? Apologies, I have missed this in the thread.
 
secretchief said:
Who are you referring to? Apologies, I have missed this in the thread.
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Assuming you're being serious....Basham in this case (It was in the quotes), but it applies to any of our players, doesn't it?

UTB
 
secretchief said:
Never said he was the worst of that team, just that that team wasn't good and he was a central feature of it. I know correlation doesn't equal causation though.

Everyone put hard yards in yesterday.

I am not slagging him for the sake of it, I am responding to people speaking on this topic with (what I consider to be) evidence-based assessments.
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probably the same people who used to slag off a certain Bob Booker........give the lad a chance to settle.

UTB
 
alcoblade said:
Assuming you're being serious....Basham in this case (It was in the quotes), but it applies to any of our players, doesn't it?

UTB
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No I'm sorry, alco, I think we have our wires crossed. I thought you referring to me and suggesting I wanted to be proved right at the expense of the team doing well. Cheers.
 
secretchief said:
No I'm sorry, alco, I think we have our wires crossed. I thought you referring to me and suggesting I wanted to be proved right at the expense of the team doing well. Cheers.
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Ah, no. I agree with your assessment, disagree that it's possible to be so sure so soon, but either way none of it matters because I'm sure we'll both be delighted if and when he proves us wrong.
:)

UTB
 
Silent Blade said:
Not long before he was subbed, he had a scoring chance when he ran onto a through ball but his awkward lanky running style let him down
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Clough is hoping that he'll get on the end of crosses into the box. He hardly plays any part in us building attacks, which is unusual for a central midfielder, but he makes his way into the box almost every time. I think it's hard for fans to really notice this during games. Clough has mentioned he could have had a hat trick in each of our last few games. These were the times he came closest yesterday:

BashamVsRochdale2.jpg

The defender in front of him just gets a touch on the ball, which prevents Basham getting his head to JCR's cross.


BashamVsRochdale1.jpg
The above is one of the few times we made their gk make a save.


I think Clough is reasonably pleased with the way he gets into the box, especially as that role is new to him. But at the same time he must be disappointed that Basham hasn't been able to convert at all so far. Clough also mentioned yesterday that he's not the best on the ball. I don't think he will persist with him in this role unless he starts scoring goals soon.
 
secretchief said:
Well if he has a Coadyesque turnaound to the season and becomes a lynchpin of the side (and scores some goals), feel free to remind me of this!

In answer to the first part of what you say, I will reiterate that I think he is being carried by other, better players around him. Of course I want to keep winning, but at present I am a long way from being persuaded that he is instrumental to it.

Your question is a very good point. I would say the following:

Remember that NC did bomb out quite a lot of dross - even to the point of paying Williams and King off! No-one is going to tell me these players, or Westlake, could have been improved. They needed transferring out, not clean slates.

Post xmas, NC augmented the team with Brayford, and already had Coady as well, both of whom are better than what we have now, which helped the less gifted players around them. Not to play down the role of Scougall. who who was brilliant, and Harris (who was good then!). So the first team was improved with good signings. But as you are probably alluding do, NC's genius in the latter half of last season was to get Murphy and Flynn playing well and being creative (and possibly Doyle after his aberration against Fulham). But we already knew Murphy was a good player, it just wasn't working for him. Can we really say the same about Basham? And Flynn, after his purple patch, has reverted to type a bit.

The pressing, deep-lying, counter-attacking side of the second half of last season didn't have as much of the ball that we are expected to have now. You need more skillful players if you are going to attempt to dominate teams, as we are now attempting to do. Last season the team worked exceptionally hard, but it is easier to play on the counter an in some ways more flattering to the team doing it. I don't see any of Basham's qualities as being helpful to this.

What is the point of scouts if not to make an evaluation on a player's quality based on a small sample size of their career? I'm no scout, but you have to wonder who watched Basham and thought he would be suitable for us.
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I won't remind you,i try to not be that type:D I'm not saying he's a world beater by any stretch of the imagination but he does take some clever positions up as others have elluded to,lets just hope he starts to put some of the chances away because he is certainly getting them.He could have had atleast one goal in all the matches bar 1 and this part of his game has to improve if Cloughy is to stick with him in that specific position.

You're right about the players you mentioned,there were some crap here and he got rid of some of it.As for Murphy,i always thought he had got something about him but come on,you can't tell me he was any better than Basham is now and don't forget,Basham has already played at a higher level.I know they're 2 different kind of players but that still doesn't change the fact that Murphy wasn't playing well.

As for the scouts,surely they have watched more than one game when judging any player,otherwise they aren't doing their job properly imo.

Basham could already be on 5 or 6 goals this season,and this is definately a part of his game he is going to have to improve on,this i won't argue with,but there is time yet and we have a good run of games to go at now to get some real momentum going,not that we haven't got any going because we have,just saying like someone said earlier,we will know even more about Basham and the rest of our team after the next couple of away games.UTB+FTBP.
 
Clough's pre-match interview mentions Basham is carrying an injury, and Wallace may as a result start at Colchester after "another good 20 minutes." So rumours of him pulling up injured after his appearance on Saturday appear to have been rubbish.
 
LoughboroBlade said:
Clough's pre-match interview mentions Basham is carrying an injury, and Wallace may as a result start at Colchester after "another good 20 minutes." So rumours of him pulling up injured after his appearance on Saturday appear to have been rubbish.
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It isn't a rumour. He definately pulled up with a twinge in either his groin or upper leg.
 

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