Are C.B.'s really the problem

[Tezza1889]

It won't be long before somebody says Collins would be worth another year, unless it's already been said, not read the whole thread yet..

 

[Darthblade]

Everyone is crying out for a new centre back, but is this really the problem. Goals recently conceded have hardly been the fault of the centre backs. Neil Collins is pretty robust and doesn't often get directly blamed for goals conceded but everyone is desperate to replace him.

I blame the midfield, who have been terrible. Poor at supporting defence, rubbish at creating chances and generally slow and ponderous.

With a big improvement from midfield I feel our strikers would get the goals, especially if the defence were also protected.

What we need is at least one if not two strong athletic midfielders who can get hold of the ball and control the pattern of play.

Too answer the original post ...... a resounding YES !!! The CB's are a problem ......... as well as the midfield and the strikers.

We need; as a minimum ..... GK, LB, CH, CM, Wide Mid, CF ..... to compete at the top of this Division.

Failing that, we can do what we're doing now ...... bring in nobody and compete in the middle of this agricultural division

UTB & FTP

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

In a way Clough caused the problem by sidelining Butler & Collins for reasons undocumented. Maguire leaving was always a possibility and Butler was supposed to be the insurance. He had opportunities to fix the problem, but didn't do so. So we ended up with the Beard at CB, where he got injured.
The Board obviously didn't like Clough's "solution" in the summer (Shaun Barker?).

Cloughs famous word to the board of you lot know fuck all about football and even less about running a club , seems to be true 12 months on .
Shaun Barker solution did not help but wasn't the straw that broke the camels back .

Adkins is somewhat in the same position , but them on the board cannot afford financially to sack him. Certain people on the board ,actually believe they know better than the manager , and treat them with contempt .

Power corrupts and its destroying our club

UTB

 

[SUFC Handsworth]

Centre half is definitely one of the main problems, for me the main problem. They need a big dominant centre half leader that wins everything. Plug that position then we might start getting somewhere. Collins or Edgar would be fine alongside but neither can do the big dominant centre half role of attacking the first ball, they're both mop up centre halves. Follow that up with an effective target man (Clarke, Gregory or Hanson would do), and a leader in midfield (a bigger and better version of Doyle).

As a few have said it is the spine of the team that is the problem, but for me first one in would be a big dominant centre half. Build from the back and all that.

 

[Grappler]

Cloughs famous word to the board of you lot know fuck all about football and even less about running a club , seems to be true 12 months on .
Shaun Barker solution did not help but wasn't the straw that broke the camels back .

Adkins is somewhat in the same position , but them on the board cannot afford financially to sack him. Certain people on the board ,actually believe they know better than the manager , and treat them with contempt .

Power corrupts and its destroying our club

UTB

Did Clough say that? I am guessing that was in the bust-up that led to him leaving?

 

[Karaoke Blade]

'.... Collins would be worth another year'

said no one, ever!

 

[WF10BLADE]

On the first day of the season myself and others were rounded up on by those who knew best for daring to suggest that defence still hasn't been addressed - we promptly lost 4-0

defence was a problem then and it remains so now.

Midfield is fucking dire - no pace no creativity and other fuckers who are probably on quarter of the bastard wages waltz through them regularly, and that's before we start on the goal return from them which is virtually none existent.

What a horrible bastarding depressing time to support the Blades :-(

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Have a strong spine, then build from that.
Our spine isn't anywhere near strong enough.
That starts with the GK thru' to the CF's.

We're neither strong or creative, not just thru' the centre, but out wide too.

Signing a CH would be a start, but it's February and the season started in August, last year.

And the tea lady knew.

 

[Grappler]

On the first day of the season myself and others were rounded up on by those who knew best for daring to suggest that defence still hasn't been addressed - we promptly lost 4-0

defence was a problem then and it remains so now.

Midfield is fucking dire - no pace no creativity and other fuckers who are probably on quarter of the bastard wages waltz through them regularly, and that's before we start on the goal return from them which is virtually none existent.

What a horrible bastarding depressing time to support the Blades :-(

"...On the first day of the season myself and others were rounded up on by those who knew best for daring to suggest that defence still hasn't been addressed - we promptly lost 4-0

defence was a problem then and it remains so now.

Midfield is fucking dire - no pace no creativity and other fuckers who are probably on quarter of the bastard wages waltz through them regularly, and that's before we start on the goal return from them which is virtually none existent.

What a horrible bastarding depressing time to support the Blades..."

You missed out the "C" word

 

[WF10BLADE]

"...On the first day of the season myself and others were rounded up on by those who knew best for daring to suggest that defence still hasn't been addressed - we promptly lost 4-0

defence was a problem then and it remains so now.

Midfield is fucking dire - no pace no creativity and other fuckers who are probably on quarter of the bastard wages waltz through them regularly, and that's before we start on the goal return from them which is virtually none existent.

What a horrible bastarding depressing time to support the Blades..."

You missed out the "C" word

Collins?

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Cloughs famous word to the board of you lot know fuck all about football and even less about running a club , seems to be true 12 months on .
Shaun Barker solution did not help but wasn't the straw that broke the camels back .

Adkins is somewhat in the same position , but them on the board cannot afford financially to sack him. Certain people on the board ,actually believe they know better than the manager , and treat them with contempt .

Power corrupts and its destroying our club

UTB

If true then its both scary as well as sad.

 

[VLYDONIMIR]

Collins?

That's the new "C" word.

Let's get ready to rumble.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Saw CB and had to post this. Will read the thread in a minute



My stepsister's got a horrible growth

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

This problem of pace is endemic throughout the team and handcuffs NA tactically. Collins (in particular) drops too deep which makes the gap between back four and midfield far too big.

I reckon there's truth in this. I think Adkins has adapted to this and we are playing deep bc of Collins - which is maybe why the Mythical Dan Burn was a target.

A few weeks ago we defended higher up the pitch for about 5', well three did and Collins was 4 or 5 yards (and I mean 4 or 5 yards) or more behind the others. We quickly reverted. Not particularly blaming him. Players all over the field drift into familiar territory but it did indicate our limitations as a team.

Collins' weakness is not exposed on a match day because we play to suit it, and he often does good things, but maybe his presence determines the way we play.

 

[finlaytheblade]

Many of the goals we conceded seem to come due to fullbacks and midfielders running past our midfield as if they aren't there. The defenders keep retreating and then put in daft challenges or allow them a free shot. When we had Doyle, there was at least someone protecting them. Basham tries to get back and Hammond is too slow, but there's hardly any cover if we're not playing ultra-defensively.

To give them credit, the defence has tightened up a lot, especially fro set pieces. They get beaten for pace and the fullbacks being out of position on occasion but with a good midfield in front of them they'd be solid enough.

Been saying it for the last few years lack of legs is our main problem ,there arnt many fast centre backs in this division ( if any!!) ours fall in line with that (would be nice to have some pace there but not essential ).Midfield and upfront is where the problem really lys and clough never tried to remedy it,he just built a defensive shape around it so as we were less vulnerable.,which made for boring football.was reasonably effective but the weaknesses in his system were never plugged even though he was backed with money.It amazes me that an experienced manager played an entire season with no proper centre backs ,the goals we conceded from set plays were a disaster and the points lost would have seen us a lot closer to the top two (At least Adkins has stopped the goals going in from set plays).
Adkins so far has not remedied the pace problem and surely it must be at the top of his list .Playing an expansive game (Adkins prefered way)
needs fit and mobile players (I think the players are fit it would be an insult to Adkins to suggest otherwise ) and the mobility bit is missing.
Clough was building his team around this boring football!!. Adkins is now charged with bringing in the type of player that can play his way
Doasnt mean all the squad is useless but he has to be selective who he keeps .We can still have a shot at the play offs if he can bring in a bit of what we lack ,fingers crossed he succeeds.

 

[Ashtonsmashton]

To me they've been down to the midfielders, not putting in a tackle or closing down

 

[blades78]

Personally, I was concerned about Basham in particular playing in midfield since the first game of the season v Chesterfield. Doesn't show for the ball enough and looks very uncomfortable receiving passes from the back 4 with his back to their goal. He makes up a little by chasing round, but achieves very little, Im afraid. Just looks like a centre back playing in midfield

 

[nopigfansintown]

Is Dan Burn either fast or disciplined enough to keep a higher line? Burn and Basham might work, then prioratise at least two midfielders

 

[Edinblade]

Everyone is crying out for a new centre back, but is this really the problem. Goals recently conceded have hardly been the fault of the centre backs. Neil Collins is pretty robust and doesn't often get directly blamed for goals conceded but everyone is desperate to replace him.

I blame the midfield, who have been terrible. Poor at supporting defence, rubbish at creating chances and generally slow and ponderous.

With a big improvement from midfield I feel our strikers would get the goals, especially if the defence were also protected.

What we need is at least one if not two strong athletic midfielders who can get hold of the ball and control the pattern of play.

Funny how midfield is changed same week as this thread. I've a funny feeling a certain manager may be reading this forum

 

[Gavlar]

Our main problem is we're crap

 

[sheffielder]

Yes, Edgar never gets himself infront of the man to win a ball and Collins can only kick a ball in the way he is facing, otherwise it goes tits up. McEverley was having a good game until he decided to cushion a head inside to one of the previously stated and it nearly went tits up. Think it was about the 85th minute mark.

Is it me or is it the old heads who seem to lose their heads when a game is tight. Just get rid of it.

 

[Need4speed]

It is easy to see what is wrong with us when Collins plays, Clough identified it, which was why he dropped him. Collins is too slow, because he is shit scared of the ball over the top our back line plays at least ten yards too deep. That is ten yards for the opposition to start running with the ball. It also means that there is too big a gap between the back four and the midfield and why we have to play three defensive midfield players. You look at the times when our back four are defending a line ten yards inside our half instead of on the half way line. Thats why we need a centre back to replace him and that is before I start about Collins distribution which is woeful.

 

[Need4speed]

Our CB's lack pace so we try to defend too deep to compensate - neither McE. Collins or Edgar are blessed with pace. (I seem to recall one of the reported disagreements between Collins and Clough was that Clough wanted the defence to play a higher line). Add to this that none of them are much good on the ball and carrying it forward and this further slows our attacks and weakens us in midfield - more often than not we are outnumbered there, especially if their defence carries the ball out - something we haven't done since we lost HM.The only attacking defender we have is Brayford. This then impacts through the way we set up and play.

If our strikers stay up and the defence plays too deep that creates an awful lot of grass for our midfield to cover - especially defensively if Coutts, Woolford or Baxter are playing. The midfield pairing of Hammond and Basham is purely a defensive ploy to protect the back four in an attempt to stop leaking goals (41 so far this season against 53 all last season) - neither of them have creativity or passing as a strength and they don't have the engine (or opportunity really ) to do box to box as they have to hold a position since the other MF players are poor defensively and pace-wise (particularly Baxter, Coutts, Woolford). A case in point, as Bergen pointed out elsewhere, was when Basham got caught out of position v Wigan - Coutts and Baxter were not switched on to the possible danger.

I think your first two paragraphs add a lot to the debate and actually show why Clough failed to turn United into an effective attacking side in his second season(especially at home), as well as addressing the OP. We were too slow getting the ball through the thirds - we didn't have the most composed third tier CH with the ability to carry the ball or use his excellent passing range any longer. That meant we went across the back four and hoofed it from full back to non existent target man (we do it now to Woolford). Or passed it at snails pace giving opposition geriatrics ample time to get in position. That is still the case: if we had a great ball playing CH now, the depth of the back four wouldn't be quite the issue it is as they would help to cover the space and allow the team to get out. Clough, to his credit identified the problem but ultimately that, and not signing a capable target man or a capable replacement for Coady cost him his job imo. Football systems failings bring on the domino effect. This meant Scougall was trying to help out the centre halves instead of staying close to the final third; Murphy was double banked and his great break aways became more rare. Coady's break aways were none existent. United will never be able to play the 442 champagne football until they address the lack of pace, or perhaps more accurately - the fear of opposition pace. The way to emphasise your CM's lack of pace and mobility is for your CH's to drop too deep.

Absolutely spot on

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

The problem is the whole team. We don't put enough pressure on the opposition in their third and don't defend from the front enough. Our back four is far from perfect but they would look very capable if those in front of them did their job properly on a more regular basis.

 

[blade67]

The spine of the team starting with the centre backs is the problem, particularly the issue of pace and athleticism. Our best two centre backs are Basham and Kennedy (chronic knee problem) with Edgar a close third. Here's my tactical analysis of the blades including centre mids and centre backs, and how it affects the tactical setup:

This problem of pace is endemic throughout the team and handcuffs NA tactically. Collins (in particular) drops too deep which makes the gap between back four and midfield far too big. The central midfielders have neither the pace or athleticism to cover this overlarge gap and protect us defensively . Of course, then the strikers are left isolated, particularly as the game wears on and covering the big gap is physically a bigger challenge. To counteract this lack of pace in CH and CM, NA plays narrow (in midfield) and allows Brayford to play like a wingback in a back four – otherwise how could we carry the ball forward without merely lumping it. This leaves us vulnerable out wide on the right – especially as we begin to tire. You really are on a hiding to nothing if you play in CM or RB/RWB for the blades at the moment (unless you love running marathons two or three times a week!). The centre back issue being resolved would allow the midfield to push up and get closer to the strikers and we would improve at the other end too.
A side issue is the general fitness of players which only exacerbates the structural failings in our shape.

Can't argue with that sort of analysis, Its hard being a CM in our team and we haven't got a pair good enough to do it, therefore we need to play 3 there meaning 1 up front. Our best forward doesn't really like to be a lone striker and our fans moan like hell when we play with one up font anyway. Trying to find a winning formula with this squad is a bit like like trying to get four 2p coins to add up to 9p, We need Derren Brown, not Nigel Adkins

 

[I should coco]

Everyone is crying out for a new centre back, but is this really the problem. Goals recently conceded have hardly been the fault of the centre backs. Neil Collins is pretty robust and doesn't often get directly blamed for goals conceded but everyone is desperate to replace him.

I blame the midfield, who have been terrible. Poor at supporting defence, rubbish at creating chances and generally slow and ponderous.

I would suggest you didn't go to Wigan.

Collins and Edgar were dogtoss but Hammond and Basham were okay. They both lack any pace at all and as previous posters have suggested, they are so fearful of aball over their heads that they defend an artificially deep line.

One of either might work but the two together are far too slow. This is compounded when Jay Mc is at LB as he has similar issues. One CB with some pace could potentially sort all this out.

ISC