Any clues as to why we should bother?

[Dkc]

Regarding the JSS I wonder how easy it would be to put in more seats at the top instead of two rows of executive boxes and about 50 external seats. If the press facilities could be relocated elsewhere on the south stand, the current press gantry could become executive boxes.

 

[vorpal blade]

Dkc, I think that the vertical posts supporting the roof of the John Street Stand go up fairly close to the fronts of the 'executive' boxes, so that they would get in the way if they were replaced by seats.

The thing is, when they built the South Stand on the old cricket pitch, they deliberately left a big gap between the front of it and the pitch. This was so they could nudge the pitch towards the south stand and build another stand the same size on the John Street side, a good idea you'd agree.

BUT they didn't use all the space they had when they did rebuild the JJS. I think this was because it would have blocked the views of some of the seats on the kop and the Bramall Lane stands. In any of the new developments at the ground, they have never demolished parts of adjacent stands to allow for a neater fit. This is why the corner between John Street and the Kop is such a bad fit, it could have been perfect but you would have had to either lose a bit of the kop or the JSS.

Had the JSS been closer to the South Stand, as was originally planned, it could have been built higher. The closer the stand is to the houses, the lower it must be to cast the same length of shadow on those houses.

It just goes to show that the planning of the stadium is as disjointed as that of the team over the past 40 years and I don't know the contractual ins and outs but I believe the John Street stand was completed to fulfill a contract long after it had been realised that it was NOT the best solution for the site. It was a 'design and build contract' meaning that the contractors built to their own design rather than SUFC commissioning a design and then going out to tender to find a builder.

In other words, to some extent, the club lost control over what was built . It was always, "sub-optimal".

 

[Kev Gee]

invest in the team first you mongs.

 

[wizadry]

I know you jest but I'm sure when we get back to the PL we could get 40,000 for maybe half a dozen games (far more than Southampton could ever dream of!)

You could be right,i think we'd have to give the away sides 5 or 6 thousand though to get near it.

 

[yuley82]

If only we'd got the World Cup!!!! Oh wait the pigs ground was chose (SCC's ground)

 

[Dkc]

Dkc, I think that the vertical posts supporting the roof of the John Street Stand go up fairly close to the fronts of the 'executive' boxes, so that they would get in the way if they were replaced by seats.

The thing is, when they built the South Stand on the old cricket pitch, they deliberately left a big gap between the front of it and the pitch. This was so they could nudge the pitch towards the south stand and build another stand the same size on the John Street side, a good idea you'd agree.

BUT they didn't use all the space they had when they did rebuild the JJS. I think this was because it would have blocked the views of some of the seats on the kop and the Bramall Lane stands. In any of the new developments at the ground, they have never demolished parts of adjacent stands to allow for a neater fit. This is why the corner between John Street and the Kop is such a bad fit, it could have been perfect but you would have had to either lose a bit of the kop or the JSS.

Had the JSS been closer to the South Stand, as was originally planned, it could have been built higher. The closer the stand is to the houses, the lower it must be to cast the same length of shadow on those houses.

It just goes to show that the planning of the stadium is as disjointed as that of the team over the past 40 years and I don't know the contractual ins and outs but I believe the John Street stand was completed to fulfill a contract long after it had been realised that it was NOT the best solution for the site. It was a 'design and build contract' meaning that the contractors built to their own design rather than SUFC commissioning a design and then going out to tender to find a builder.

In other words, to some extent, the club lost control over what was built . It was always, "sub-optimal".

Interesting, and in many ways typically United. Many stands are now built with extension in mind, but it seems that the JSS can't be made any bigger. It would have to be totally levelled and rebuilt, with the pitch moved closer to the south stand, which would be a very expensive way of increasing the capacity.

I'm still not totally convinced that digging down isn't an option given the total size of the pitch and sidelines. If we were to get to the PL and expand, perhaps they could look at that option again.

 

[grafikhaus]

After yesterday, I think we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves. I'm sure there's an architectural formula governing the size of ground required. Ah, this is it:

Buy a decent striker = promotion. Likely average crowds in Championship = ca. 26k. Sorted!

 

[vorpal blade]

agreed

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Dkc, mentions the idea of digging down. When I was involved with the club in '96 I did suggest it. I don't think there is enough margin between pitch and stands all the way around to dig the pitch deeper and fill it with seats

BUT the Kop has to be demolished and rebuilt at sometime because it is simply not fit for purpose now. The proposal to add new seats to the back of the Kop wasn't viable (IMHO) because the outmoded state of the existing terraces was ignored.

So, if you were to rebuild the kop, theoretically it could be located closer to Shoreham Street (and therefore make more room to dig the pitch down) but that may present problems with planning vis a vis how close it would get to the houses there.

The other problem is that Bramall Lane is very low-lying, witness how close it is to the level of the River Sheaf, in other words, the water table. We know how prone the pitch is to mud in winter and I suspect that lowering the pitch would only make matters worse.

btw I remember Brealey's proposal for a running track, it coincided with the success of a local lad called Sebastian who could run a mile quite quickly (whatever happened to him?). I don't think that proposal envisaged turning the pitch by 90º, to accommodate the track instead they would have rebuilt the good old Spion Kop as a curved stand. (planning problems were encountered for reasons mentioned above and I think they proposed a hotel in the same building). There was a previous scheme in the 1960s ? designed when BDTBL was still a cricket ground which DID spin the pitch around 90º and would have been a logical development but that would have left Bramall Lane knackered for years. I can only think of Molineaux as an example of redeveloping an existing ground so comprehensively. They built a new stand behind the old one and then demolished the old stand. Many of us will remember the bizarre nature of Molineaux which as a result had a gap of about 30 yards from stand to touchline for years because of course, as happened here, Wolves ran out of cash because they built a new stand and so couldn't afford to rebuild the remaining 3 stands for 20 odd years.

Sorry to go on, but I've got some work to do and I'm trying to avoid doing it. If you have done, thanks for reading this pulp.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

I remember reviewing the Architects and Structural Engineers proposals . Cannot remember a flood risk assessment being carried out . One of the issues , which is still the same ( i believe ) , that some of the land within the ground boundary area is not owned by the club , The McCabe family or any of there businesses but by a previous chairman , who somewhat creates a land lock and a ransom strip of land . No money for ground improvement but ideas are still being banded around still to this day.

UTB

 

[vorpal blade]

My Noble Lord, I never heard that one before,

aaargh oh 'eck!

Way back when, I worked on a proposal; before I was working with the club. I was thinking that one way of assuaging the ire of the aldermen, other do-gooders and shirkers would be to give something back to the community.

Do you remember when you could smell the wild garlic growing on the spion kop as you walked up the steps at the back? My idea was that we made that into parkland and opened it up as such. I also thought we could do something similar as the basis for the new John Street Stand, (which was a demolition site for a year or two whilst minds were made up about the contract to build it, see notes above).

That way, the residents of John Street, then only in the terrace at the Shoreham Street end would have a lovely bank of wild flowers, trees etc. as the view from their bedroom windows. Any roof on the stand could have been translucent.

But I found myself operating just outside the box, to coin a footballing phrase.