Ask yourself this..

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Fiery Blade said:
I think you will find that Collins gave the ball away to start the move that create the goal !
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Collins was at fault for the goal but the quality of the pass and finish were way above league 1 standard and whilst such a mistake ( I.e misplaced pass 30-35 yards out)will create problems for us in L1 ,the majority of the time it will lead to nothing.

It is the mistakes we make inside our area which will concern me more
 

Stretch said:
Fair point made mate and I largely agree but I would add that with Collins in the side I honestly don't think we would have leaked 3 in 10 against Swindon nor leaked as many from set pieces as we did last season. Whether we would have been promoted is impossible to say but I do believe we work have been better organised defensively.

We still need at least 1 CB though.

UTB
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in the league wasnt Collins playing when we leaked 5 at Swindon....
 
cooperblade said:
Collins played when we conceded 5 at Swindon in the league though. Don't think him and McEveley are the answer. I hope we bring in 2 centre backs before the window closes and I hope that they can build an understanding quickly.

I find it interesting that so many people are very patient about us making these signings. The likely reaction if Clough hadn't made any defensive signings would have been so different (even if he'd brought Collins back into the fold).
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I agree, if clough had been in the job he would have been expected to sign at least 1CB if not 2 immediately and would have rightly been criticised if he hadn't.

From our signings so far it is obvious that NA is hoping for significant gains in the goals for column and we should achieve this easily.

However, goals alone won't be good enough for automatic promotion when we have a CB pairing of JMc and Collins.

They both have mistake in them which over the course of the season will mean we miss out on autos. However they may just see us through the first few games (but these could be high scoring games and is risky)

I also think we need 2 CB not just one to protect against suspension, injuries etc. which will easily mount up in that position over the season.

I posted before at least 1 CB should have been in by now but I trust NA is doing the right thing and has a particular person in mind.

UTB
 
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As it stands, I'm not confident of automatic promotion with our defence.

We've got a fringe player out of position at left back
We have an ageing CB in Collins who I reckon could do a job with some pace next to him
We have a slow, small and error-prone left back next to him
Freeman, I'm very happy with.

If Collins got injured in the first minute against the Gills, our back 4 would be:

Freeman J-Mac K Wallace McFadzean

Unless he put Basham there and then we'd have Baxter and someone who can't make up for his lack of CM ability next to him. K Wallace has played just over a month as a CB. CB is mostly about positioning and marking.He might be OK next to someone like Collins who would talk him through it, but not J-Mac.

It's not a stretch to say we might pick up injury and suspensions at the back, and if we lost both CBs it would likely be vastly more farcical than last year.

I can;t understand why this wasn't the first are addressed. We need 2. I would have at least brought in one improvement on what we had fairly quickly, even if I planned spending more time getting in the right long term solution. There were plenty of appropriate free transfers.

I'm not worried yet. I will be if we don't bring in anyone before Saturday. We need to start well, and both keepers need a confident back 4 infront of them.
 
There's been a lot of talk of 'clean slates' over the summer, both on here and BM. Whilst I'm all in favour of giving everyone a chance, I'm not comfortable with it being used as an excuse for not signing players. NA is getting a lot more leeway than NC, and whilst I'm happy to give him much of it going on his record, I'm certainly not happy to accept that Collins & J-Mac are a CB partnership that will get us automatic promotion.
 
barnyblade said:
Firstly, i'd like to point out I think the signings so far have been decent, but ask yourself this..

Whilst travelling home from Swindon, or after watching it wherever, a game in which our defence leaked 3 goals in the space of 10 minutes, could you ever envisage being 4 days to go till the start of the new season and still without any new signings at CB?

No, me neither, and yet here we are, 4 days to go, without any new CB's..

Not pointing the blame at anyone but I find it quite extraordinary given how many games and points we lost as a result of our abomination of a defence last season.
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This season ALL the team have to learn to defend and not leave it just to the back 4 , and make them look piss poor, like the players in front of them did last season.

UTB
 
GRUMPY BLADE said:
Bloke in charge
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Hes not mentioned automatic promotion in the context that Collins and J Mac are a good enough pairing to ensure that happens, thats why hes looking at bringing in more defensive options
Hes happy with them atm and they will suffice for now until those defensive options arrive
 
Why does Collins get hammered every time over conceding 5 away at Swindon in the league? Who else was playing? Mcgahey, Alcock and Mceveley. Somehow its all Collins fault though. Clough was the one who started that particular hate campaign when asked later in the season where Collins was, to answer that he was part of the Swindon shambles.

A lot of us hated these tactics of pointing the blame at individuals by Clough, but are employing them ourselves.
 
Pedro Verde said:
Hes not mentioned automatic promotion in the context that Collins and J Mac are a good enough pairing to ensure that happens, thats why hes looking at bringing in more defensive options
Hes happy with them atm and they will suffice for now until those defensive options arrive
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Whilst I think Adkins is a fantastic manager, I'm not going to blindly accept what he says. There are so many better options out there. There were so many better free transfers. No. they will not suffice for now. If he truly believes that then God help us. We can't afford to drop points due to having a poor defence.
 
robbiez666 said:
We've got a fringe player out of position at left back
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Is he "out of position"? While he broke into the first team in midfield, didn't he play most of his games at Burton at left-back, and hasn't he been used there for our U21s? Think this is the position he has matured into.
 
What everyone seems to be ignoring is that NA has brought back Collins who effectively did not play at all last season so it is like We have signed a new CB. Collo may not be the best CB in League 1 but don't forget that the season before last he was part of a defence that hardly conceded a goal (after the Crewe away match). Last season Jay Mc Everley was "converted" to play CB by Clough. I saw his first game there and he looked like a fish out of water but he grew into the role and had some outstanding displays. He went off towards the end of the season but that was after he dislocated his shoulder and was playing with that injury. Small wonder his form suffered. We have all seen how some managers can turn poor or ordinary players into very good players and it may well be that NA can do that with Collo and J Mc especially in terms of organisation and having a settled pairing, something we never had last season in defence.
 

robbiez666 said:
Whilst I think Adkins is a fantastic manager, I'm not going to blindly accept what he says. There are so many better options out there. There were so many better free transfers. No. they will not suffice for now. If he truly believes that then God help us. We can't afford to drop points due to having a poor defence.
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Are you saying that Collins and J Mac will not suffice for another 4 weeks (might not have to be that long if the right CB becomes available) its a marathon not a sprint
Who are these many wondeful CB free transfers that were out there
God help us we're doomed I tell thee
 
cooperblade said:
Collins played when we conceded 5 at Swindon in the league though. Don't think him and McEveley are the answer. I hope we bring in 2 centre backs before the window closes and I hope that they can build an understanding quickly.

I find it interesting that so many people are very patient about us making these signings. The likely reaction if Clough hadn't made any defensive signings would have been so different (even if he'd brought Collins back into the fold).
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Thats not going to happen at all, NA has praises both of them all pre season so like it on not that is our CB pairing!!!
 
Pedro Verde said:
Has anybody said they were
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No, but there's this ever-increasing coonfidence and complacency in here that seems to assume 'everything will be alright, Nige has something up his sleeve'. I think that is woeful. We don't need Gillingham as just another extension of pre-season frinedlies with which to piss about with formulas or play the waiting game until the right (undisclosed) transfer materialises out of the ether. I don't think we are approaching the Fair Play criteria yet. A glance at the PL released list shows a sizeable amount of players looking for another job with no transfer fee from the mid to lower reaches and no doubt the Championship has another similar list. Would they come to Bramall Lane? Well, this is the undiluted definition of Game Changing Investments, isn't it? Do we pay £25k pw for a defender who shows that level of PL guile and ability and doesn't drop out of the picture, and challenges for the aerial ball enabling one point to turn into three (as in the case of Hull City the other day)? Or do we stick with two options who have some considerble provable shortcomings, players who will cost us points and goals this season? Let me remind you of the countless times our defence was left wanting against palpably, evidentially poorer opposition last season. Let me also remind you that this is the same defence this season.

Are we serious about promotion, or what?

pommpey
 
pommpey said:
No, but there's this ever-increasing coonfidence and complacency in here that seems to assume 'everything will be alright, Nige has something up his sleeve'. I think that is woeful. We don't need Gillingham as just another extension of pre-season frinedlies with which to piss about with formulas or play the waiting game until the right (undisclosed) transfer materialises out of the ether. I don't think we are approaching the Fair Play criteria yet. A glance at the PL released list shows a sizeable amount of players looking for another job with no transfer fee from the mid to lower reaches and no doubt the Championship has another similar list. Would they come to Bramall Lane? Well, this is the undiluted definition of Game Changing Investments, isn't it? Do we pay £25k pw for a defender who shows that level of PL guile and ability and doesn't drop out of the picture, and challenges for the aerial ball enabling one point to turn into three (as in the case of Hull City the other day)? Or do we stick with two options who have some considerble provable shortcomings, players who will cost us points and goals this season? Let me remind you of the countless times our defence was left wanting against palpably, evidentially poorer opposition last season. Let me also remind you that this is the same defence this season.

Are we serious about promotion, or what?

pommpey
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I will trust Mr Adkins to strengthen the CB position before the transfer window closes with a good signing
Dont worry I havent forgot about our defensive shortcomings last season it was excrutiatingly painful
to watch week after week with the same defensive frailties occuring nearly every game
With regard to paying £25k a week to a new defensive signing that is ridiculous in this division there is just no need to pay that amount of money to any player in L1
 
pommpey said:
No, but there's this ever-increasing coonfidence and complacency in here that seems to assume 'everything will be alright, Nige has something up his sleeve'. I think that is woeful. We don't need Gillingham as just another extension of pre-season frinedlies with which to piss about with formulas or play the waiting game until the right (undisclosed) transfer materialises out of the ether. I don't think we are approaching the Fair Play criteria yet. A glance at the PL released list shows a sizeable amount of players looking for another job with no transfer fee from the mid to lower reaches and no doubt the Championship has another similar list. Would they come to Bramall Lane? Well, this is the undiluted definition of Game Changing Investments, isn't it? Do we pay £25k pw for a defender who shows that level of PL guile and ability and doesn't drop out of the picture, and challenges for the aerial ball enabling one point to turn into three (as in the case of Hull City the other day)? Or do we stick with two options who have some considerble provable shortcomings, players who will cost us points and goals this season? Let me remind you of the countless times our defence was left wanting against palpably, evidentially poorer opposition last season. Let me also remind you that this is the same defence this season.

Are we serious about promotion, or what?

pommpey
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Were Clough in charge, I'd probably agree with you. That's not being blissfully optimistic about Adkins, nor ignorant about how woeful the defence was last season. But I'm not envisaging the mentality on the pitch being the same this season. We will like to attack – we have a squad that I feel will get goals, and I can't see us lining up to win 1-0 each game, which appeared to be Clough's way. You had a feeling last year that the minute we conceded, that was it. i don't think that's now the case. You could argue that being set up to be a more attacking team than last year will add pressure to the defence. I think the opposite – scoring more should relieve it.

One other thing. There's nothing quite like a change of manager to drastically alter the fortunes of individual players. Shaun Murphy was an error-ridden disaster before Warnock came in. Chris Morgan and Derek Geary looked all-over-the-place in a Bryan Robson defence. To think that this season's back 4 will be identical to last season's just based on the personnel seems to ignore this. More recently, one of the first things Clough tackled when he first arrived was to sure up a defence that had under Weir been very leaky. I remember seeing us scrape a 1-0 down at Bristol City early on when we looked completely comfortable at the back – a prospect unthinkable just a few weeks before.
 
Pedro Verde said:
I will trust Mr Adkins to strengthen the CB position before the transfer window closes with a good signing
Dont worry I havent forgot about our defensive shortcomings last season it was excrutiatingly painful
to watch week after week with the same defensive frailties occuring nearly every game
With regard to paying £25k a week to a new defensive signing that is ridiculous in this division there is just no need to pay that amount of money to any player in L1
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Evidently, there is. Especially when we ship avoidable goals at the rate we do.

We are seemingly building a formidable strike force which, with Billy Smart (as it is) Matt Done and Connor Sammon, we might just have one of them exceed last season's top scorer at twelve goals. We have a proven menace in Murphy, we are living on goodwill and promises in the midfield engine room, possess a possibly decent defensive midfielder and can just about get by out wide on the defensive flanks. But in the box we are, and will remain, massively vulnearble with one central defender who has been out of the team for most of last season and not getting any younger, and another one who isn't in anyone's books a central defender.

I cast your minds back to a few years and beyond and give you Chris Morgan, Robbie Page, Paul Beasley (who I once saw tuck the great Peter Crouch down his sock) Harry Maguire and Eddie Colquoun. These are centre backs. They 'see' the threat, put themselves in the way of attackers, provide an area of cover where crosses are intercepted to safety and effectively nullify the opposition. They also read each other.

We need that so desperately. Saying 'give them a chance' is missing the point. They are not good enough, already.

pommpey
 
pommpey said:
Let me also remind you that this is the same defence this season.
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Not sure this is true - and it seems to be at the heart of a lot of the, er, negative or cautious posts.

It seems obviously true that a manager can transform:
  • an individual player through, for instance, coaching and man-management
  • a team though re-organisation, re-structuring and team-management
So far this seems to be the case, but we'll know better after Satdi, and we'll know much better 3 or 4 games in.

So far, McEveley is a different player from the nervous wreck at the end of last season, and Collins hasn't played for nearly a year might as well be a new signing. They've done ok so far. This is our new defence. Whether it will turn out to have the old frailties, and whether those frailties are as significant, time will tell.

We do need a CH or two but, for me, it's a different issue from the one we faced at the end of last season.
 
LoughboroBlade said:
There's nothing quite like a change of manager to drastically alter the fortunes of individual players. Shaun Murphy was an error-ridden disaster before Warnock came in. Chris Morgan and Derek Geary looked all-over-the-place in a Bryan Robson defence. To think that this season's back 4 will be identical to last season's just based on the personnel seems to ignore this.
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You put it so much better than I did :)
 
pommpey said:
Evidently, there is. Especially when we ship avoidable goals at the rate we do.

I cast your minds back to a few years and beyond and give you Chris Morgan, Robbie Page, Paul Beasley (who I once saw tuck the great Peter Crouch down his sock) Harry Maguire and Eddie Colquoun. These are centre backs. They 'see' the threat, put themselves in the way of attackers, provide an area of cover where crosses are intercepted to safety and effectively nullify the opposition. They also read each other.

pommpey
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You cannot put a list together like that without including JOE SHAW.
 
William Henry Foulkes said:
Not sure this is true - and it seems to be at the heart of a lot of the, er, negative or cautious posts.

It seems obviously true that a manager can transform:
  • an individual player through, for instance, coaching and man-management
  • a team though re-organisation, re-structuring and team-management
So far this seems to be the case, but we'll know better after Satdi, and we'll know much better 3 or 4 games in.

So far, McEveley is a different player from the nervous wreck at the end of last season, and Collins hasn't played for nearly a year might as well be a new signing. They've done ok so far. This is our new defence. Whether it will turn out to have the old frailties, and whether those frailties are as significant, time will tell.

We do need a CH or two but, for me, it's a different issue from the one we faced at the end of last season.
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Read and inwardly digest:
Both Collins and McEverley are not good enough full stop - we need two new centre backs
Both players make at least one howler every game which generally leads to a goal for the opposition
Despite having Billy Big Boots we cannot guarantee to score three goals every game !
Any manager that can transform those two should be in the Performing Miracles business not Football Management !
 
travellingblade said:
You cannot put a list together like that without including JOE SHAW.
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Agree, or for that matter, Paul McGrath. Had days when he couldn't train, needed to rest, yet when he rolled up on match day he was a class act. Superb player even when he came to us.
 
Pedro Verde said:
I will trust Mr Adkins to strengthen the CB position before the transfer window closes with a good signing
Dont worry I havent forgot about our defensive shortcomings last season it was excrutiatingly painful
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If clough was still in charge and our back four was as is, there is no way anyone on here would have posted the above statement.

The first home game if points had been dropped at Gillingham would have been toxic.
 
Pedro Verde said:
Are you saying that Collins and J Mac will not suffice for another 4 weeks (might not have to be that long if the right CB becomes available) its a marathon not a sprint
Who are these many wondeful CB free transfers that were out there
God help us we're doomed I tell thee
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And if those four weeks eventually cost us automatic promotion?
 

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