What changed between Swindon dressing room and the meeting with the Board?

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lingsbord said:
Woody's a good lad, often took dog's abuse in the BM Madhouse (haven't we all?). For whatever reason this forum seems to have a reputation for slightly more mature debate (can't think why!) so hopefully it'll stay that way (cue replies of "feck off lingsbord") - we need opinions from all sides for any thread to be interesting, but simple personal abuse is the easy, lazy way out. Off you go then, let me have it ...........
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Agree Woodwardfan ie a respected poster, no need for all the fallout. By the fact we post on here makes us a bit self indulgent but like it's been stated we enjoy chucking our ideas in the mix, debating them, refuting them, putting attempted funny comments or knocking them. No need to get personal and attacked every time someone posts. I moved here from BM cause there's far less big egos and less abuse chuck about by a few over there.

Tempers have run high just let it all drop and start again there are more important things to debate. S24SU is a great forum and long may it last with diverse views and characters.

As for you lingsbord youve only been here 2 minutes and cause a nuclear bloody war ;):):D
 
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Peter Dornan said:
Here's a version from someone within the club. Note they do not have access to the boardroom, so make of it what you will. It seems to have a positive slant towards McCabe, so whether it's a true story, a deliberate leak from 'the Establishment', or simply another load of conjecture, I am not aware.

There was no plan to get rid of NC. Clough and McCabe had a meeting during which McCabe suggested the appointment of a Director of Football to help reduce NC's workload. it was a genuine offer of help from McCabe who thought that NC was suffering higher than necessary levels of stress personally because of the amount of work he was doing. NC said it was not necessary to have a DoF and said (paraphrasing) "I am in charge". McCabe responded by reminding NC that actually he (McCabe) was the one in charge.

From there, somehow, things deteriorated, things were said, and even though they had a 48 hour cooling down period, whatever breakdown had occurred could not be patched up.
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That sounds plausible, as we all say (or most of us), it seems that going into the weekend, NC was still the club manager, with the boards intent that it stay that way.

As I have mentioned earlier, an ex-employee of the club told me that a decent budget was discussed (during that meeting) with NC, who claimed he wouldn't need that much as he only needed three players, or something like that, and when he was questioned about which positions and which players, etc., it kicked off.

That may be true, false, or somewhere in between, but I seem to remember NC saying in January that he had not spend all the money available to him as he treated it "like his money", or something like that, does anyone else recollect that? I wonder if the board thought he was not ambitious enough?

Here's the thing, McCabe and the Prince will obviously be looking for a fast exit from League One, and I would imagine they would be concerned if you were offereing to give even more money to someone (to aid that fast exit by bringing in players) who said we would more or less be ok with what we have got?
 
Grappler said:
That sounds plausible, as we all say (or most of us), it seems that going into the weekend, NC was still the club manager, with the boards intent that it stay that way.

As I have mentioned earlier, an ex-employee of the club told me that a decent budget was discussed (during that meeting) with NC, who claimed he wouldn't need that much as he only needed three players, or something like that, and when he was questioned about which positions and which players, etc., it kicked off.

That may be true, false, or somewhere in between, but I seem to remember NC saying in January that he had not spend all the money available to him as he treated it "like his money", or something like that, does anyone else recollect that? I wonder if the board thought he was not ambitious enough?

Here's the thing, McCabe and the Prince will obviously be looking for a fast exit from League One, and I would imagine they would be concerned if you were offereing to give even more money to someone (to aid that fast exit by bringing in players) who said we would more or less be ok with what we have got?
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Is there a scenario where NC engineered his own demise?

Seem to recall when he came he wasn't that enthusiastic saying he wanted to spend time with his family blah blah blah. He might have looked at how pear shaped last season went, what was needed to put it right and thought f*** it. I'll get my compo and have a rest.

Or it could have been prof plumb with the candle stick
 
BushBlade said:
How's things, Lings? Still got your own business?
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Yes Bushman - just re-launching the electric guitar manufacturing, still restoring old Porsches, still trading Currency options to make the money to pay for the other two! Hope you're well mate?


B56 - I do my best mate, as you know....drop the bomb and run away :cool:
 
lingsbord said:
Yes Bushman - just re-launching the electric guitar manufacturing, still restoring old Porsches, still trading Currency options to make the money to pay for the other two! Hope you're well mate?


B56 - I do my best mate, as you know....drop the bomb and run away :cool:
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Yeah not bad thanks. Didn't realise you did guitars. I've just bought an Epiphone Les Paul Black Beauty, second hand, Korean. Not particularly skilled, just like making a noise.
 
Grappler said:
That sounds plausible, as we all say (or most of us), it seems that going into the weekend, NC was still the club manager, with the boards intent that it stay that way.

As I have mentioned earlier, an ex-employee of the club told me that a decent budget was discussed (during that meeting) with NC, who claimed he wouldn't need that much as he only needed three players, or something like that, and when he was questioned about which positions and which players, etc., it kicked off.

That may be true, false, or somewhere in between, but I seem to remember NC saying in January that he had not spend all the money available to him as he treated it "like his money", or something like that, does anyone else recollect that? I wonder if the board thought he was not ambitious enough?

Here's the thing, McCabe and the Prince will obviously be looking for a fast exit from League One, and I would imagine they would be concerned if you were offereing to give even more money to someone (to aid that fast exit by bringing in players) who said we would more or less be ok with what we have got?
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There is some truth in that . In any walk of life you cannot argue with the Chairman or board directors , unless you want your P45. You finish up in a no win , no win situation , as Clough has done.

The sad thing about all this episode , i really think Clough had seen and taken on board is mistakes of last season.

Who knows what was said in innocence or premeditation . What it has caused , is for SUFC looking for yet another manager , and we start all over again , for better or for worse.

UTB
 
All conjecture now I guess.
But Nigel doesn't seem like the type to suddenly go all contrite and promise sweeping changes for next season.
Did the board hear "we need 2 or 3 players" and "quality not quantity" and ask whether he really meant it this time?
 
lingsbord said:
Yes Bushman - just re-launching the electric guitar manufacturing, still restoring old Porsches, still trading Currency options to make the money to pay for the other two! Hope you're well mate?


B56 - I do my best mate, as you know....drop the bomb and run away :cool:
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Sounds cool, got a few interesting guitars of my own
 
BushBlade said:
Yeah not bad thanks. Didn't realise you did guitars. I've just bought an Epiphone Les Paul Black Beauty, second hand, Korean. Not particularly skilled, just like making a noise.
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Is that the one with three humbuckers?
 
Lord Bos of Eckington. said:
There is some truth in that . In any walk of life you cannot argue with the Chairman or board directors , unless you want your P45. You finish up in a no win , no win situation , as Clough has done.

The sad thing about all this episode , i really think Clough had seen and taken on board is mistakes of last season.

Who knows what was said in innocence or premeditation . What it has caused , is for SUFC looking for yet another manager , and we start all over again , for better or for worse.

UTB
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So reasonable thinking, but if you employ a manager with all that experience nobody expects him to be learning on the job, especially things like needing a strong spine in League 1, needing strikers, needing some big players and having a few black men in the team because they can add qualities to the squad.
 
blade too long said:
Was always Maguires choice. He felt he was ready for the prem , big clanger picking Hull but hes a footballer ergo not very bright
he was badly advised , obviously by his agent who got a wedge out of it. Thats how football is, but as gafikhaus said, it left Clough with a big hole to fill , one that became a chasm at Swindon
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I think we could have kept him if his pay on the club scale reflected that he was our best player and consistently in the league team of the year. Keeping him would have been my number one priority. Lots of people picked up on his shortfalls, which he has, but he's a huge loss to the team and Hull looked like a developing premier team which was probably about as high up the ladder as he could expect. By all accounts he did well on loan in the championship, probably will do next year, I presume at least quadrupled his wages and didn't have to move house. Fair play.
 
diplomat said:
I think we could have kept him if his pay on the club scale reflected that he was our best player and consistently in the league team of the year. Keeping him would have been my number one priority. Lots of people picked up on his shortfalls, which he has, but he's a huge loss to the team and Hull looked like a developing premier team which was probably about as high up the ladder as he could expect. By all accounts he did well on loan in the championship, probably will do next year, I presume at least quadrupled his wages and didn't have to move house. Fair play.
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nah wishful thinking, on giving him more money
theres the glamour of being in the prem and the wages, are just huge now
plying your trade at brisbane road , or the Emirates, money doesnt begin to cover that
 

William Henry Foulkes said:
OP has Number 1 as change the head scout(!). Later tempered, perhaps, by including that it's conjecture. In a small print kind of a way.

Postulating that the prime (or a significant) driver behind the sacking of the manager is the performance (and bloodline?) of the Head Scout when that coincides exactly with the often expressed view of the poster seems to be a clearly, er, agenda driven, no matter how well expressed.

I can't see that FFS is an overreaction.

Fwiw imo it was worth starting the thread and there's been some balance between credulousness, attention-seeking, and more reasonable, even informed, guesses.
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OK WHF, for one who has sought concrete evidence in the past you seem prepared to offer opinion now, fair enough.;) No problem.
 
Revolution said:
I have no inside knowledge, but one of the theories the timeline supports is that whatever Phipps may have said after the game, the owners took some time to think about things and then decided to fire Clough, and he was told on Sunday.

There may have been no falling out at all. It may just be that the decision makers just took some time to come to a view. This is not unusual, particular where there are co-owners.

Even if there was a falling out, I would be amazed if it was over something like Garner's position.
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Absolutely ridiculous if that is the case. Anyone with any brains would have held off the promotional video until the decision was taken.
 
Grappler said:
That sounds plausible, as we all say (or most of us), it seems that going into the weekend, NC was still the club manager, with the boards intent that it stay that way.

As I have mentioned earlier, an ex-employee of the club told me that a decent budget was discussed (during that meeting) with NC, who claimed he wouldn't need that much as he only needed three players, or something like that, and when he was questioned about which positions and which players, etc., it kicked off.

That may be true, false, or somewhere in between, but I seem to remember NC saying in January that he had not spend all the money available to him as he treated it "like his money", or something like that, does anyone else recollect that? I wonder if the board thought he was not ambitious enough?

Here's the thing, McCabe and the Prince will obviously be looking for a fast exit from League One, and I would imagine they would be concerned if you were offereing to give even more money to someone (to aid that fast exit by bringing in players) who said we would more or less be ok with what we have got?
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I think Clough and Phipps may have said last summer that not all the Prince's money would be spent that year with a plan to boost spending once we reached the Championship.

Then the season went wrong and a lot of that money was [spent right at the end of the JTW when we paid well over the odds for two quality players whose clubs didn't want to release but couldn't refuse the amounts finally offered ( in panic?!).

In January we also signed Coutts and Freeman who will not have been cheap on wages. Then we signed Davies in January on loan but not cheap no doubt.

I think all that cash was spent to change the course of the season and in effect was some of "the Championship budget" spent early and on players who would be useful up there anyway.

I recall Clough saying he treated the money as his own. I also recall Phipps declaring in November that we would spend big in the JTW in accordance with plans submitted to the Board by the manager.

In other words the manager got it wrong last summer and needed more cash. Then he got it wrong again in the JTW by failing to sign central defenders and moving Campbell -Ryce out.

That background makes the Board start to have doubts whether the manager is that good at building a squad and no doubt the Board will have wanted to scrutinise the manager's plans whereas maybe in the past they just rubber stamped his plans. Clough is a sensitive man and lashes out when there is any hint of criticism, we have all seen that. The criticism may have been about his brother's record at the club and just maybe the Board asked for improvement.

Footnote: Last paragraph pure conjecture, total guesswork!

The DOF idea would have been a similar threat to Simon Clough and also would have reduced Clough's personal control which was almost total.
 
Woodwardfan said:
So reasonable thinking, but if you employ a manager with all that experience nobody expects him to be learning on the job, especially things like needing a strong spine in League 1, needing strikers, needing some big players and having a few black men in the team because they can add qualities to the squad.
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We certainly needed some taller, stronger, faster players in the side - but why do you think they must be black?
 
Dkc said:
We certainly needed some taller, stronger, faster players in the side - but why do you think they must be black?
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Good question. It's not a "must", it's a logical preference.

Are there any other teams we play that have no black players? Some have 5 or 6 in their starting eleven. All last season I never saw another all white team play against us.

I think that's because they add certain qualities such as athleticism, strength, pace, skill and even height. They are often key players.

By having that "blind spot" I think we were missing the opportunity to improve the squad.

Put it this way, the new manager will sign a few black players, no doubt about it. Most managers do.

When we do I will be pleased.
 
Woodwardfan said:
Good question. It's not a "must", it's a logical preference.

Are there any other teams we play that have no black players? Some have 5 or 6 in their starting eleven. All last season I never saw another all white team play against us.

I think that's because they add certain qualities such as athleticism, strength, pace, skill and even height. They are often key players.

By having that "blind spot" I think we were missing the opportunity to improve the squad.

Put it this way, the new manager will sign a few black players, no doubt about it. Most managers do.

When we do I will be pleased.
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Woody . Couldn't care less if the players we sign are black , white , brown , pink , orange , any country , any class , creed , as long as they can play football and rid us off the errors of Clough ways , witnessed too many times , last season.

UTB
 
Exactly. While as a very general rule-of-thumb, players who can trace their ancestry back to (usually west) African tend to be taller and have stamina, there are plenty of shit black players around too. Woodwardfan seems to be the only one who is mentioning skin colour. It should be irrelevant. Height, skill, strength and stamina are the important criteria.
 
BushBlade said:
Yeah not bad thanks. Didn't realise you did guitars. I've just bought an Epiphone Les Paul Black Beauty, second hand, Korean. Not particularly skilled, just like making a noise.
Click to expand...


I picked up a black Gibson Les Paul Studio in Glasgow last year second hand. Always wanted a proper Gibbo. Was well chuffed when I saw one for under £500
 
Dkc said:
Exactly. While as a very general rule-of-thumb, players who can trace their ancestry back to (usually west) African tend to be taller and have stamina, there are plenty of shit black players around too. Woodwardfan seems to be the only one who is mentioning skin colour. It should be irrelevant. Height, skill, strength and stamina are the important criteria.
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Lord Bos of Eckington. said:
Woody . Couldn't care less if the players we sign are black , white , brown , pink , orange , any country , any class , creed , as long as they can play football and rid us off the errors of Clough ways , witnessed too many times , last season.

UTB
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Past issue, I'd be worried if we had a team of orange and pink players though!!
 
There's as many slow, weak black players as there are strong, quick white ones. Being black isn't a guarantee of being athletic or good at football. The best policy is just to sign good players.
 
Woodwardfan said:
I think Clough and Phipps may have said last summer that not all the Prince's money would be spent that year with a plan to boost spending once we reached the Championship.

Then the season went wrong and a lot of that money was [spent right at the end of the JTW when we paid well over the odds for two quality players whose clubs didn't want to release but couldn't refuse the amounts finally offered ( in panic?!).

In January we also signed Coutts and Freeman who will not have been cheap on wages. Then we signed Davies in January on loan but not cheap no doubt.

I think all that cash was spent to change the course of the season and in effect was some of "the Championship budget" spent early and on players who would be useful up there anyway.

I recall Clough saying he treated the money as his own. I also recall Phipps declaring in November that we would spend big in the JTW in accordance with plans submitted to the Board by the manager.

In other words the manager got it wrong last summer and needed more cash. Then he got it wrong again in the JTW by failing to sign central defenders and moving Campbell -Ryce out.

That background makes the Board start to have doubts whether the manager is that good at building a squad and no doubt the Board will have wanted to scrutinise the manager's plans whereas maybe in the past they just rubber stamped his plans. Clough is a sensitive man and lashes out when there is any hint of criticism, we have all seen that. The criticism may have been about his brother's record at the club and just maybe the Board asked for improvement.

Footnote: Last paragraph pure conjecture, total guesswork!

The DOF idea would have been a similar threat to Simon Clough and also would have reduced Clough's personal control which was almost total.
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Some very good points here and although you identify one of the later paragraphs as conjecture, and let's face it we are probably never going to hear the actual goings on, if you add to that his interest in bringing yet another long term injured ex Derby player to the club, his assertion that we had no need of strengthening the goalkeeping position and at least one of the retained list ( and I'm probably being very generous here ) not of the calibre likely to improve our performance then where was the evidence that he had genuinely seen the error of some of his ways?
 

Highbury_Blade said:
I picked up a black Gibson Les Paul Studio in Glasgow last year second hand. Always wanted a proper Gibbo. Was well chuffed when I saw one for under £500
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Nice, I'm slightly jealous. ;-)
 
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