We don't 'owe' Wilder anything

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stringer said:
Very worst case scenario United end the season as the 20th placed team in the 91-team pyramid, with millions to come in parachute payments and a very strong Champo squad. Ask a Bury or Macc Town fan if things can’t get any worse at Sheffield United.


He fashioned the chance to manage in the Premier League himself by dragging this club there. He was no more/less likely to do that here than at Charlton (granted, less at Northampton).




Surely you mean
B) dismiss him knowing that if we go down, the man who comes in to replace him will be less likely to win promotion again with this squad of players? No way of ‘knowing’ anyone would secure survival by replacing the manager.
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'Ask a Bury or Macc Town fan if things can’t get any worse at Sheffield United.'

This argument always puzzles me, because a Scarborough fan etc. would question a Bury or Macc fan who said that things couldn't get worse for them.

We had a bigger budget and better set up than Charlton. Having Sharp and Basham before he arrived was crucial, Charlton didn't have any players near that calibre as I recall.

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It was a silly hypothetical, which questions what sort of club we want to be, a ruthless and heartless one or a loyal one. There is not necessarily a right or wrong answer, but each approach has it's own risk. Personally I would take sentiment out of any decision and go from there, but that's just me
 
FMBlade1 said:
Agree entirely. Without sounding patronizing/arrogant there are things he needs to improve on as well and ways he needs to change. Will he acknowledge or adhere to that?

The greatest managers adapt over time, if he doesn't he won't continue to be one.
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This is the crux of the issue for me. He simply cannot stick to a single formation, be unwilling to be flexible, fail to recognise errors, adapt and learn, and expect to achieve success at this level
 
8lade said:
That's a decent question and the obvious answer is 'no but' I have absolutely no idea who would be more successful (who we could afford) etc.
This moment in time reminds me of when the Charlton fans wanted rid of Curbishley because he couldn't kick them on from 8th in the top tier.
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I just don't see the Curbishley comparison at all, we're staring down the barrel of being the worst top flight team in living memory. I don't think it's a case of expecting us to "kick on", it's about putting in a respectable performance this season which to me is to put up a good fight against relegation even if we ultimately go down.
 
FMBlade1 said:
'Ask a Bury or Macc Town fan if things can’t get any worse at Sheffield United.'

This argument always puzzles me, because a Scarborough fan etc. would question a Bury or Macc fan who said that things couldn't get worse for them.

We had a bigger budget and better set up than Charlton. Having Sharp and Basham before he arrived was crucial, Charlton didn't have any players near that calibre as I recall.

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It was a silly hypothetical, which questions what sort of club we want to be, a ruthless and heartless one or a loyal one. There is not necessarily a right or wrong answer, but each approach has it's own risk. Personally I would take sentiment out of any decision and go from there, but that's just me
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100%. Precisely my arguement. Given how hard it’s been to get here, my preference is to protect our keep whatever it takes. I have no issue whatsoever with those that favour loyalty and sentimentally. However, you have to then admit that favouring that means we’re probably sacrificing some success on the pitch. It’s those that are arguing from a sentimental standpoint but swear blind it’s all about the best way to achieve success that aren’t being honest with themselves. Particularly after, what 1 point in 40?
 
YES Blade said:
I just don't see the Curbishley comparison at all
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Obviously it's not 100% but the similarities are there, a manager punching above his weight and a fanbase who think it's as simple as 'appoint a better manager'. Between Warnock and Wilder I thought every appointment was a good one bar Robson. I don't think many other people would genuinely say they called for a manager who went on to greater things (apart from laddo who said he called Wilder earlier, sorry can't remember who that is).
 
A Storm of Blades said:
100%. Precisely my arguement. Given how hard it’s been to get here, my preference is to protect our keep whatever it takes. I have no issue whatsoever with those that favour loyalty and sentimentally. However, you have to then admit that favouring that means we’re probably sacrificing some success on the pitch. It’s those that are arguing from a sentimental standpoint but swear blind it’s all about the best way to achieve success that aren’t being honest with themselves. Particularly after, what 1 point in 40?
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So you think by sticking with Wilder we are being loyal and sentimental and we are sacrificing success on the pitch ?
So say we get rid of Wilder who do we get in as manager ?
We cannot attract a top manager, we do not have a mega rich chairman funding fees and more importantly the extortionate wages proven PL players command these days
So you have to get in a foreign manager who we probably know little about, a young up and coming manager or an experienced manager that is on the managerial merry go round that has probably been sacked at a few PL clubs, all of those are a gamble and will want funds to bring in their own players to play the way the incoming manager wants to play. Success on the pitch is not guaranteed

Iam not in favour of sticking with Wilder through sentiment or loyalty, I want Wilder to stay as I think he will be the best man for the job if we get relegated, if we dont get relegated he will have done a great job anyway
 
stringer said:
Very worst case scenario United end the season as the 20th placed team in the 91-team pyramid, with millions to come in parachute payments and a very strong Champo squad. Ask a Bury or Macc Town fan if things can’t get any worse at Sheffield United.


He fashioned the chance to manage in the Premier League himself by dragging this club there. He was no more/less likely to do that here than at Charlton (granted, less at Northampton).




Surely you mean
B) dismiss him knowing that if we go down, the man who comes in to replace him will be less likely to win promotion again with this squad of players? No way of ‘knowing’ anyone would secure survival by replacing the manager.
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Doubt you'd shift many books about this season, Danny!
 
Pedro Verde said:
So you think by sticking with Wilder we are being loyal and sentimental and we are sacrificing success on the pitch ?
So say we get rid of Wilder who do we get in as manager ?
We cannot attract a top manager, we do not have a mega rich chairman funding fees and more importantly the extortionate wages proven PL players command these days
So you have to get in a foreign manager who we probably know little about, a young up and coming manager or an experienced manager that is on the managerial merry go round that has probably been sacked at a few PL clubs, all of those are a gamble and will want funds to bring in their own players to play the way the incoming manager wants to play. Success on the pitch is not guaranteed

Iam not in favour of sticking with Wilder through sentiment or loyalty, I want Wilder to stay as I think he will be the best man for the job if we get relegated, if we dont get relegated he will have done a great job anyway
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The point is the club will have to make whatever decision it makes not out of sentiment or loyalty.

Looking things at the cold light of day. If that means dismissing Wilder so be it, if that means keeping Wilder so be it.
 
Why is Wilder the best person to steer us out if this shit show?

Even the worst person you could possibly think of in the whole of football could only be one point worse off.

Edit: I don't think this is completely Wilder's fault. He has/is been let down by some players.
 
A Storm of Blades said:
It’s a bit disingenuous to base an argument on a theory that there is a bereft of suitable replacements by only citing 2 polarising managers. If the vacancy ever came up im sure it would have more than 2 applicants. I’d never heard of Hassenhuttl or Pochettino (as a manager) and didn’t Wenger come a J-league side?
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I’m mentioning the 2 managers most people have been putting forward as replacements of course there’s more managers to choose from you could try abroad but I think this season would be pointless and I’d personally give Wilder chance to regroup
 
Robson.Blackwell.Adams.Wilson Wier.Clough. and Atkins. Gary Speed Rip went on to manage Wales. Morgan was temporary so they don,t count.
Seven permanent managers could not get us promoted.to the premier league. Chris Wilder has got us from League One to the premier league. two promotion.
then a top ten finish last season. quite rightly everyone congratulated him. this season with 28 games remaining. lost first10 games. now fans are turning against him. okay, people have a right to have an opinion. I think it is unfair Wilder deserves to be our manager whatever happens. we might start winning games. we might get relegated. Give Chris Wilder a break let him get on with his job and turn things around. he is the best manager for us.In Wilder We Trust.
 
kevreedy said:
Robson.Blackwell.Adams.Wilson Wier.Clough. and Atkins. Gary Speed Rip went on to manage Wales. Morgan was temporary so they don,t count.
Seven permanent managers could not get us promoted.to the premier league. Chris Wilder has got us from League One to the premier league. two promotion.
then a top ten finish last season. quite rightly everyone congratulated him. this season with 28 games remaining. lost first10 games. now fans are turning against him. okay, people have a right to have an opinion. I think it is unfair Wilder deserves to be our manager whatever happens. we might start winning games. we might get relegated. Give Chris Wilder a break let him get on with his job and turn things around. he is the best manager for us.In Wilder We Trust.
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Without getting personal/argumentative I take issue with this:

'unfair Wilder deserves to be our manager whatever happens'

What needs to be done is what is right for the football club, not Wilder. Even if it's unfair to Wilder and he doesn't deserve it. What if we are struggling at the foot of the championship next year, should he still be here?

Ranieri is another example. He didn't deserve to be sacked at Leicester and it was unfair considering what he brought to the club, but can anyone really argue that it was the wrong decision?

To be clear, I'm not advocating getting rid of Wilder. I'm just saying that sentiment, loyalty and fairness shouldn't be a consideration in the club's decision making process.
 

FMBlade1 said:
The point is the club will have to make whatever decision it makes not out of sentiment or loyalty.

Looking things at the cold light of day. If that means dismissing Wilder so be it, if that means keeping Wilder so be it.
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You have to look at where we are as a club

We are in the PL last season we finished 9th with the smallest wage budget in the League bar Norwich
we massively over achieved
This season we are in the PL again with the smallest wage budget (probably bar WBA) and we are bottom which suggests we are more or less where we should be with regards to budget
For us to build on last seasons success we needed no injuries, crowds in stadiums, the players already at the club to perform at 100% every game, and to sign some proven PL players
Guess what weve got none of that

Can you tell me why we are 'sacrificing success' sticking with Wilder
We are where we are and until we have the financial clout to pay the wages we will as you say sacrifice success
 
Pedro Verde said:
You have to look at where we are as a club

We are in the PL last season we finished 9th with the smallest wage budget in the League bar Norwich
we massively over achieved
This season we are in the PL again with the smallest wage budget (probably bar WBA) and we are bottom which suggests we are more or less where we should be with regards to budget
For us to build on last seasons success we needed no injuries, crowds in stadiums, the players already at the club to perform at 100% every game, and to sign some proven PL players
Guess what weve got none of that

Can you tell me why we are 'sacrificing success' sticking with Wilder
We are where we are and until we have the financial clout to pay the wages we will as you say sacrifice success
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I can't tell you that we are 'sacrificing success' by not sacking because I haven't said that we are, and I don't know if we are. However we could be. But that's another debate.

As I said repeatedly imho we should stick with him for now.

The decision will need to be made on evidence and hard facts not sentiment, loyalty fairness etc. imho which is the point of the OP.
 
What I am getting at in a nice and calm way.if Wilder is sacked and I hope he doesn't get sacked.
Who is good enough to replace Wilder and keep us up?.because any new manager will have the same problem wage budget and transfer budget.
 
FMBlade1 said:
Without getting personal/argumentative I take issue with this:

'unfair Wilder deserves to be our manager whatever happens'

What needs to be done is what is right for the football club, not Wilder. Even if it's unfair to Wilder and he doesn't deserve it. What if we are struggling at the foot of the championship next year, should he still be here?

Ranieri is another example. He didn't deserve to be sacked at Leicester and it was unfair considering what he brought to the club, but can anyone really argue that it was the wrong decision?

To be clear, I'm not advocating getting rid of Wilder. I'm just saying that sentiment, loyalty and fairness shouldn't be a consideration in the club's decision making process.
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Last season when he was talked about as a Arsenal, Spurs or Manure replacement - £5million + a year (https://www.sportekz.com/football/premier-league-managers-2020-salaries/ ) - 10 times his salary - he would have snapped their hands off- as any good Yorkshireman should. Now with HRH looking at £120m loss - its only reasonable we trust in the Prince to look for the best options.
 
DannyRotten said:
Given I think Knill is the brains of the operation, Im not sure how bothered I am about Wilder staying or leaving.

I'd personally promote Knill and tell him to get his own staff in.
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How did you go on against Norwich today? My mate once shagged a pig and it squealed on him.
 
FMBlade1 said:
This probably won't go down well with some (or most), but then it's a forum not a popularity contest. It's just to add some balance. I imagine some will just read the title then dig in though I urge you to read on before you do;

Wilder has done very well working for SUFC. We took him from Northampton Town to give him the most significant job he has ever had with one of the best budgets in the league. Whilst it was true he may have/could have gone to Charlton, even if he had they were in a tricky position with their owners etc. so definitely dodged a bullet by not becoming their manager instead.

During his time here he has had two new contracts. Thoroughly deserved of course. And by coming here he has had the chance to create and take the opportunity to manage in the Premier League, which he surely would not have had by staying at Northampton or going to Charlton.

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Now I totally understand the argument that we should not consider his position this season so we can bounce back up like Burnley, West Brom or as Norwich are currently doing.

Where things get a bit hazy imho is when people say things like 'We owe it to him to see out the season in the PL' or 'He deserves the chance to take us back up', or 'We shouldn't sack him no matter what'

I understand what people mean by that, but the consideration should be: Is him being our manager definitely in our best interests, or would an alternative be more viable?

It's not about Wilder, but about the club. Loyalty is of course an admirable quality but shouldn't entirely shape our direction. Southampton ditched Atkins after back to back promotions for example and that proved to be in their best interests.

Not for a moment am I saying that he should go at this current stage. He is the best person currently to see us through these difficult times. However we don't 'owe' him anything and can't let that affect our future direction.

Of course eternally grateful for the fantastic job he has done here, though that is not the same thing.

Onwards and upwards soon with a result tomorrow,

UTB!
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I'll judge him next season. If we were in this position under normal circumstances and capacity crowds, he'd have to go.

Our squad is the weakest in the league. Our wage budget is the lowest in the league.
Those statements were also true last season.
Take away the fans that the players thrive on and we literally turn into the squad as written on paper.

I can only liken this to a computer game. If you load up FIFA 21 and simulate the season, we'll get relegated.
 
Bastard government letting the southern softies have tier two and can go to a game 2,000 of em.
Yet we have to stay in lockdown and can,t go to a match.
 
mattbianco1 said:
I'll judge him next season. If we were in this position under normal circumstances and capacity crowds, he'd have to go.

Our squad is the weakest in the league. Our wage budget is the lowest in the league.
Those statements were also true last season.
Take away the fans that the players thrive on and we literally turn into the squad as written on paper.

I can only liken this to a computer game. If you load up FIFA 21 and simulate the season, we'll get relegated.
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Fair comment 👍🏼
 
kevreedy said:
What I am getting at in a nice and calm way.if Wilder is sacked and I hope he doesn't get sacked.
Who is good enough to replace Wilder and keep us up?.because any new manager will have the same problem wage budget and transfer budget.
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Totally get that hope he turns things around and stays.

I do think another manager could have got better than Ramsdale for 18 million, Brewster for 23 million and McB for 20 million though
 
Whichever way you look at it. And I have been critical this season. We owe him more than 10 games after the time we have had. With injuries and suspensions etc.

Results need to improve certainly but we can’t judge him until further down the line, and til the signings have bedded in.
 
hidesbehindapseudonym said:
Gap at the bottom opening now.
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Not the be all and end all.

We can accept like Norwich did that we are going down, not change the manager or buy anyone and strategize on bouncing back.

It would have to be this squad to do it though, probably minus Berge, JOC and Egan (with downgrade replacements) with Sharp and McG all getting on a bit.
 
FMBlade1 said:
Totally get that hope he turns things around and stays.

I do think another manager could have got better than Ramsdale for 18 million, Brewster for 23 million and McB for 20 million though
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ramsdale didnt cost us 18m a deal was done regarding rest of money owed on brooks word at the time was around 14m which for an england u23 international is a good price and personally think rammy and the brewster will prove to be good signings the one that wasnt was mcburnie chris took a punt on him and it hasnt paid off but maybe he will come in to his own next season if were in the championship its his level
 

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