Tactically outdone

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

FMBlade1

FMBlade1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2016
Messages
3,808
Reaction score
6,099
Location
York
Before the match I picked on a comment Roygbiv had found on Leicester's forum:

“These are a good side, but they play their best football when O’Connell and Basham can get on the overlap and confuse the opposition with overloads. Us playing three forwards high up the pitch could completely nullify that – get Barnes and Ayoze high and then it leaves Ricardo and Chilwell to ensure the wing-backs are pinned back.”

As predicted this turned out to be correct, Leeds (in our home game) and Bristol City used this tactic to great effect last season as well, surprisingly few other teams have. They also allowed us to have ball in front of their penalty box knowing that apart from Norwood we almost never score long shots and made sure we didn't get in and behind them. We kept trying but this slowed down the pace and effectiveness of the attack so they were able to defend deep with their strong tall defenders which made it difficult to break through. Rodgers commented on this in his post match interview, mentioning how valuable Wes Morgan's contribution was when he came on.

It's something that has been almost entirely neglected on these forums, we've discussed the players we are up against but not the managers. Rodgers has stick from his Liverpool days but he is an astute manager as you would expect in the PL, with well resourced opposition scouting to compliment it.

I can't purport to have the answer to get round this, and we'll know more in the coming weeks, but this was a painful yet valuable lesson. I'm sure we have some plan b's (hopefully will see this on Tuesday) and I liked how Wilder was proactive with the substitutions and how demanding he is of his players.

If there is just one thing I'd like us to work on for now it would be shooting from long range. When the opposition is back in numbers and we can't get an overload or a decent cross in, we either are forced to play it backwards and lose momentum (if not the ball) or put a poor cross in our strikers have no chance of scoring from which risks the counter attack.

UTB
 

This could be worrying as 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 seem to be the fashionable formations at the moment.

However it can work both ways - I thought last week JOC was joining attacks more than Basham and this very effective in pushing Townsend back and diminishing his threat on the break.

It may come down to risk vs reward for us and our opponents: do we want to seek a numerical advantage in the attacking third and risk a devastating counter; do they want to risk being overloaded on both flanks in the hope of catching us on the break?

Whatever happens I feel we’re in for an interesting season, with some great tactical battles unfolding each week, and some more tweaking and reinvention by Wilder and Knill.
 
O’Connell did at least four times but didn’t get the ball passed to him. Once late first half it left him way out of position upfield.
 
We were not 'tactically outdone' - we didn't play to the manager's plan and he stated that quite clearly post-match.

In effect we were not as positive as we should have been and there were maybe numerous reasons for that, the main one being fast breaks on the counter. As a result we played too deep at the back and in midfield. Both Basham and O'Connell were circumspect with the ball and that didn't help them to be positive; never seen O'Connell give the ball away so much.

I think the players were too respectful/ daunted by Leicester's pace and potential as a Top 7 team. They didn't look that good to me, apart from Vardy who only had 16 touches plus of course the only two shots on target. Some anonymous, negative players on their side. They had nothing other than that quick break and 'parked the bus' the rest of the time. Their new lad in centre defence looked uneasy and it was his uncontrolled header out of our danger area which so luckily set up Barnes's goal. Basham gave them the other.

Wilder was right to be disappointed. Whether he should have admonished them so loudly in public, time will tell. It's a managerial tactic and he didn't single out individuals.
 
Don't think you can compare Championship managers tactics last season at BDTBL because we're not playing with a number 10 at Home at the moment and thats causing the centre backs to stay deep. The build up play is slower as a result. Beilsa stopped us playing at the Lane by deploying Forshaw to man mark Duffy all game.

Understand CW's frustration at them not getting up the pitch but the team are used to having an outlet at 10. It frees up space for the centre backs to move into and restricts the opposition pushing up on us. They played with two defensive midfielders, a 10 with two forwards in advance of that would have kept them occupied further up the pitch.

The 3-5-1-1 formation is a containing style and away from home it has its benefits. At home it restricts our ability to move the ball quicker resulting in a midfield log jam as has happened in the last two home games. Once we brought two forwards on and had Freeman pushed further up we looked better but their second goal took the wind out of our sails.

Leicester were quicker to the ball and won most of the second phase but created little. We were hardly under the cosh. We stopped them playing but at the cost of creating chances. At Home we have to go for it. Hopefully the cautious shackles will come off for Southampton.
 
Just read my wife's What's App telling the kids we were losing, written at 15.39

' Losing, Vardy, Bash big mistake.Very nervy first half hour, we've overhit nearly every pass'

Nothing manager can do tactically about that.
 
Basic errors and a world class strike is not being tactically outdone. As Wilder said, if our players had not been so careless in posession and done their jobs we would probably have got a result yesterday.
 
4-3-3 is the obvious way to counteract any variant of a three at the back. The opposition wide players play behind your wingbacks. I saw this best deployed by Swansea City last season. Despite Leicester utilising it, I don't think it was particularly useful for them until the latter part of the game. I only remember three good Leicester chances; they came from an horrendous mistake by Bash, a slow build up down our left and the second phase of a corner.
I think a problem throughout the match was a lack of legs in the middle, and the lack of defensive mindset of the three in the final 20 mins or so. Our gamble yesterday was playing those three and hoping they'd have the legs to block the passing lanes - ala Bournemouth and Palace. When we went 1-0 down it's a case of 'in for a penny, in for a pound' as we were chasing the game after being second best in the middle in the first half. We got back into the game by playing more direct, and prioritising the flanks. Leicester were wholly incapable of coping with basic diagnal balls up to Mcburnie.
When we went to four at the back we had nothing on the flanks and proceeded to try and play through their low block rather than around it (where the space was)or more directly to Mcburnie. I think for this particular game, playing up to Mcburnie whilst continuing to flood the flanks was the way to go. Instead we lumped balls in from far too deep; Sharp was the only player prepared to go to the byline as he could see the problem.
We could also have brought Besic on to stiffen the midfield three and negate possible counter attacks after our equaliser. Our best attacks weren't really dependent on our three, but we're a risk and reward team so we tend to keep the
attacking minded players on the pitch. I can't blame Wilder for that.
 
Last edited:
nopigfansintown said:
4-3-3 is the obvious way to counteract any variant of a three at the back. The opposition wide players play behind your wingbacks. I saw this best deployed by Swansea City last season. Despite Leicester utilising it, I don't think it was particularly useful for them until the latter part of the game. I only remember three good Leicester chances; they came from an horrendous mistake by Bash, a slow build up down our left and the second phase of a corner.
I think a problem throughout the match was a lack of legs in the middle, and the lack of defensive mindset of the three in the final 20 mins or so. Our gamble yesterday was playing those three and hoping they'd have the legs to block the passing lanes - ala Bournemouth and Palace. When we went 1-0 down it's a case of 'in for a penny, in for a pound' as we were chasing the game after being second best in the middle in the first half. We got back into the game by playing more direct, and prioritising the flanks. Leicester were wholly incapable of coping with basic diagnal balls up to Mcburnie.
When we went to four at the back we had nothing on the flanks and proceeded to try and play through their low block block rather than around it (where the space was)or more directly to Mcburnie. I think for this particular game playing up to Mcburnie whilst continuing to flood the flanks was the way to go. Instead we lumped balls in from far too deep; Sharp was the only player prepared to go to the byline as he could see the problem
We could also have brought Besic on to stiffen the midfield three and negate possible counter attacks after our equaliser. Our best attacks weren't really dependent on our three, but we're a risk and reward team so we tend to keep the attacking minded players on the pitch. I can't blame Wilder for that.
Click to expand...

Agree not knocking the positive subs but Schmeichel was causing untold problems on the counter with his distribution.
 
Went yesterday and there seemed to be worrying similarities. Yes overall it was a good point, and Wilder was surprised how Watford played as many of us were. If not for some woeful finishing by Welbeck and Gray it would have worked for them.

We can't shoot from outside the box, we can't win headers from inside the box, we can't get around the opposition and we can't get crosses/passes we would like into the box when teams play like this against us.

What it does mean however is that Fleck has more of a chance of running at the defence from deep which he is good at but needs further work on. Norwood is always closed down because he is the one player we have who can shoot from long range.

Wilder has some serious thinking to do.
 
FMBlade1 said:
Went yesterday and there seemed to be worrying similarities. Yes overall it was a good point, and Wilder was surprised how Watford played as many of us were. If not for some woeful finishing by Welbeck and Gray it would have worked for them.

We can't shoot from outside the box, we can't win headers from inside the box, we can't get around the opposition and we can't get crosses/passes we would like into the box when teams play like this against us.

What it does mean however is that Fleck has more of a chance of running at the defence from deep which he is good at but needs further work on. Norwood is always closed down because he is the one player we have who can shoot from long range.

Wilder has some serious thinking to do.
Click to expand...

It's not serious, if Watford had put two of the chances away they'd have done what we did to Everton and I can't remember many bitchin about that result?
 
GRUMPY BLADE said:
It's not serious, if Watford had put two of the chances away they'd have done what we did to Everton and I can't remember many bitchin about that result?
Click to expand...

We dominated possession. So what? We were not really threatening at all, and Watford were.
 
FMBlade1 said:
Went yesterday and there seemed to be worrying similarities. Yes overall it was a good point, and Wilder was surprised how Watford played as many of us were. If not for some woeful finishing by Welbeck and Gray it would have worked for them.

We can't shoot from outside the box, we can't win headers from inside the box, we can't get around the opposition and we can't get crosses/passes we would like into the box when teams play like this against us.

What it does mean however is that Fleck has more of a chance of running at the defence from deep which he is good at but needs further work on. Norwood is always closed down because he is the one player we have who can shoot from long range.

Wilder has some serious thinking to do.
Click to expand...
who was surprised? Watford are a decent team in a false position and won’t be down there at the end.. we missed an opportunity to kick them while they were down
 
FMBlade1 said:
We dominated possession. So what? We were not really threatening at all, and Watford were.
Click to expand...

Everton dominated possession?

It's fine lines most of the time.

Liverpool were booked for time wasting and hanging on.


We got three points and do did Liverpool, neither justified.
 
GRUMPY BLADE said:
Everton dominated possession?

It's fine lines most of the time.

Liverpool were booked for time wasting and hanging on.


We got three points and do did Liverpool, neither justified.
Click to expand...

I'm more interested in discussing tactics on this thread rather than making negative predictions, but the concerns about the former leads me to the latter.

Everton were/are hopeless and they are surely going to change their manager soon. That doesn't take anything away from what our result, but we can't rely on other teams nonperforming.

I'd be interested in what people make of our tactics... or maybe we are just fine the way we are and can continue in the same vein? (genuine questions)
 

FMBlade1 said:
I'm more interested in discussing tactics on this thread rather than making negative predictions, but the concerns about the former leads me to the latter.

Everton were/are hopeless and they are surely going to change their manager soon. That doesn't take anything away from what our result, but we can't rely on other teams nonperforming.

I'd be interested in what people make of our tactics... or maybe we are just fine the way we are and can continue in the same vein? (genuine questions)
Click to expand...

I think we've been successful at keeping the door shut at the back and controlling the ball when we have it most of the time.

Next step is developing the ability to get beyond the 18 yard box before we cross it.

It's work in progress and going the right way.
 
FMBlade1 said:
I'm more interested in discussing tactics on this thread rather than making negative predictions, but the concerns about the former leads me to the latter.

Everton were/are hopeless and they are surely going to change their manager soon. That doesn't take anything away from what our result, but we can't rely on other teams nonperforming.

I'd be interested in what people make of our tactics... or maybe we are just fine the way we are and can continue in the same vein? (genuine questions)
Click to expand...
I think it is important that our forwards hold the ball up and bring midfielders into the game. I think the 2 starters yesterday di that quite poorly. However, the week before we were excellent and lost.
 
We have players that can score from outside the box Lundstram and Fleck can hit it.
Their problem is they can't keep it low and on target, they balloon it high and wide.
 
FMBlade1 said:
Went yesterday and there seemed to be worrying similarities. Yes overall it was a good point, and Wilder was surprised how Watford played as many of us were. If not for some woeful finishing by Welbeck and Gray it would have worked for them.

We can't shoot from outside the box, we can't win headers from inside the box, we can't get around the opposition and we can't get crosses/passes we would like into the box when teams play like this against us.

What it does mean however is that Fleck has more of a chance of running at the defence from deep which he is good at but needs further work on. Norwood is always closed down because he is the one player we have who can shoot from long range.

Wilder has some serious thinking to do.
Click to expand...
We came up against this kind of set up in the 1st division and usually came out on top apart from Walsall who always seemed to punish us. We are a better team now and more streetwise but open to a counter attack , Wilder calls it risk and reward we got a deserved point ,Arsenal next bring it on.
 
We’re playing at a different level now and a lot of sides have realised that our main supply line us through our wing backs & so obviously restricted this , plus they’re coming up against better teams / players that will try and exploit the space in behind us if they push on . This is where we’re missing a creative midfielder as mentioned in all the Duffy threads as that the ‘flat’ midfield provide good protection to the defence but Fleck & Lunny are limited in the number of times they they push on into the box or carry ball beyond the front 2 . When they have both got in there Lunny vs Palace & Fleck vs Liverpool we create more . I still think Freeman gives us that and he needs to be used more
 
Meant to add also when we’ve gone 433 , granted when we’ve being chasing a game we’ve looked a lot more dangerous going forward , I know it’s striking a balance as you don’t want to get out to the sword like Norwich did at the weekend , but we also need to take the shackles off a bit more in some games as the 3 points are ones that’ll keep us in this division
 
FMBlade1 said:
Went yesterday and there seemed to be worrying similarities. Yes overall it was a good point, and Wilder was surprised how Watford played as many of us were. If not for some woeful finishing by Welbeck and Gray it would have worked for them.

We can't shoot from outside the box, we can't win headers from inside the box, we can't get around the opposition and we can't get crosses/passes we would like into the box when teams play like this against us.

What it does mean however is that Fleck has more of a chance of running at the defence from deep which he is good at but needs further work on. Norwood is always closed down because he is the one player we have who can shoot from long range.

Wilder has some serious thinking to do.
Click to expand...
To be honest FM, if Wilder or anybody saw Watford totally outplay Arsenal in their last home game playing good football only to be let down by poor finishing, they wouldn’t be surprised at all mate.
 
I don’t want us to throw away our system...however I do think 3-4-3 would work better than what we’re currently doing.

Freeman - McBurnie - Robinson.

Wingbacks can still do the same job, back three the same, fleck and Norwood revert back to the roles they were playing last season. Or alternatively Lundstram for Norwood.

The current system is not what we’re about at all.
 
I think we’ve had a ‘Sussed Out!’ thread or similar every season since Wilder arrived so I’m not going to let get too down on it just yet, but what I will say is that I’m surprised that Luke Freeman hasn’t been used more recently when we’ve needed to unlock a defence.
 
Yes weve been totally sussed out now
Chelsea had it dead easy v us
Liverpool had their easiest game of the season against us
Everton really had us worked out

we have lost unluckily to liverpool and a good leicester team
and saints won as we fell foul of a VAR going against us
and 2 goals in those losses have been in goal of the month

our main faults this season have been individual errors and some wayward midfield passing
 
blade too long said:
Yes weve been totally sussed out now
Chelsea had it dead easy v us
Liverpool had their easiest game of the season against us
Everton really had us worked out

we have lost unluckily to liverpool and a good leicester team
and saints won as we fell foul of a VAR going against us
and 2 goals in those losses have been in goal of the month

our main faults this season have been individual errors and some wayward midfield passing
Click to expand...
I don’t think many are arguing that we’re not defensively strong, we are apart from one or two mistakes as you’ve mentioned. It’s the lack of creativity that’s frustrating, we looked so much better in 2nd half vs Chelsea when we took the shackles off and went for it, I’d love to see more of that.
 

Millhousesblade1889 said:
I don’t think many are arguing that we’re not defensively strong, we are apart from one or two mistakes as you’ve mentioned. It’s the lack of creativity that’s frustrating, we looked so much better in 2nd half vs Chelsea when we took the shackles off and went for it, I’d love to see more of that.
Click to expand...
that will come

its all new to us, we are very much learning we are capable

we can be negative about it or say we've only lost one more than man city have
some of the football at times we have played has been astounding
I had no idea we'd be as good as we have been
but all teams are looking to be all things within each 90 minutes
we don't have 750m pounds worth of talent like some
we have to factor in our strength is our togetherness way above our talent
we just don't have or ever could match the quality some teams have built up over the years
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

Back
Top Bottom