Pre-Match Police Issues - Bit of an Update

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GodricBlade

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Just sharing a couple of bits of info after a personal e-mail crusade yesterday.

1. Had a response from FSF ([email protected]) who says she's working with supporter groups to provide comment back to SYP about what happened on Sunday. Sound like she's got plenty of stuff already but for those non-Tweeters like me (Philistines...) it's another way of raising the problems with someone who's interested.

2. Had a call from SWFC's Safety/Security bloke this morning as I e-mailed them to find out what happened with the turnstiles. He's claiming the club had no communication from SYP that trams had been stopped & 500+ Blades would be arriving late & all together. So they'd gone to normal post kick-off routine to close all but 2 turnstiles. Poor decision to do that as counting people in they knew that 500+ people hadn't arrived yet but again claimed they had "no idea where they were". Says they opened 2 more turnstiles as soon as they could get operators back to man them as they were watching the match! Apologised for the experience & says he would be taking the matter up with SYP as they're meeting to discuss in light of dirty weeds turning up on Sunday.

I'm not bothered about getting any money back. I just want the atrocious organisation & communication between SYP & SWFC to be called to task. Next e-mail (for what it's worth) will be to PCC for SYP. Then MP's for S2 & S6. Then Donald Trump as no doubt he'll have a view....
 

Good work. I can't contribute as I wasn't there but It certainly sounds as if there are a lot of questions that need answering.
It's a disgrace that so many people missed so much of the match after setting off in good time and spending so much money.
 
Just sharing a couple of bits of info after a personal e-mail crusade yesterday.

1. Had a response from FSF ([email protected]) who says she's working with supporter groups to provide comment back to SYP about what happened on Sunday. Sound like she's got plenty of stuff already but for those non-Tweeters like me (Philistines...) it's another way of raising the problems with someone who's interested.

2. Had a call from SWFC's Safety/Security bloke this morning as I e-mailed them to find out what happened with the turnstiles. He's claiming the club had no communication from SYP that trams had been stopped & 500+ Blades would be arriving late & all together. So they'd gone to normal post kick-off routine to close all but 2 turnstiles. Poor decision to do that as counting people in they knew that 500+ people hadn't arrived yet but again claimed they had "no idea where they were". Says they opened 2 more turnstiles as soon as they could get operators back to man them as they were watching the match! Apologised for the experience & says he would be taking the matter up with SYP as they're meeting to discuss in light of dirty weeds turning up on Sunday.

I'm not bothered about getting any money back. I just want the atrocious organisation & communication between SYP & SWFC to be called to task. Next e-mail (for what it's worth) will be to PCC for SYP. Then MP's for S2 & S6. Then Donald Trump as no doubt he'll have a view....

I bet after the first 15 minutes or so there was a right scramble from said operators to get back to manning the turnstiles rather than watching them get schooled on the pitch.
 
Just sharing a couple of bits of info after a personal e-mail crusade yesterday.

1. Had a response from FSF ([email protected]) who says she's working with supporter groups to provide comment back to SYP about what happened on Sunday. Sound like she's got plenty of stuff already but for those non-Tweeters like me (Philistines...) it's another way of raising the problems with someone who's interested.

2. Had a call from SWFC's Safety/Security bloke this morning as I e-mailed them to find out what happened with the turnstiles. He's claiming the club had no communication from SYP that trams had been stopped & 500+ Blades would be arriving late & all together. So they'd gone to normal post kick-off routine to close all but 2 turnstiles. Poor decision to do that as counting people in they knew that 500+ people hadn't arrived yet but again claimed they had "no idea where they were". Says they opened 2 more turnstiles as soon as they could get operators back to man them as they were watching the match! Apologised for the experience & says he would be taking the matter up with SYP as they're meeting to discuss in light of dirty weeds turning up on Sunday.

I'm not bothered about getting any money back. I just want the atrocious organisation & communication between SYP & SWFC to be called to task. Next e-mail (for what it's worth) will be to PCC for SYP. Then MP's for S2 & S6. Then Donald Trump as no doubt he'll have a view....

Try and get that in writing! Documentary evidence
 
Well regardless it’s not acceptable.

The police and club sit next to each other in the control room. The police have an outside (outside the ground) commander, and a match commander. They may operate on different radio channels so not listening to what is going on for each command but each will have their own loggist to document their policies and decisions.
That failure in communication WAS the single biggest cause of that disaster years ago....yet here we are in the age of communication and technology and those simple errors are taking place again. It’s not as if those fans were only 2 minutes away and deciding to turn up late of their own making....the cops held them back a mile from the ground. It was obvious what was going to happen.

Someone needs a right bollocking and demoting from their rank as they are clearly not up to the job.
 
Quite right. This is an utter disgrace and people need to be held to account.

Well regardless it’s not acceptable.

The police and club sit next to each other in the control room. The police have an outside (outside the ground) commander, and a match commander. They may operate on different radio channels so not listening to what is going on for each command but each will have their own loggist to document their policies and decisions.
That failure in communication WAS the single biggest cause of that disaster years ago....yet here we are in the age of communication and technology and those simple errors are taking place again. It’s not as if those fans were only 2 minutes away and deciding to turn up late of their own making....the cops held them back a mile from the ground. It was obvious what was going to happen.

Someone needs a right bollocking and demoting from their rank as they are clearly not up to the job.
 
Just sharing a couple of bits of info after a personal e-mail crusade yesterday.

1. Had a response from FSF ([email protected]) who says she's working with supporter groups to provide comment back to SYP about what happened on Sunday. Sound like she's got plenty of stuff already but for those non-Tweeters like me (Philistines...) it's another way of raising the problems with someone who's interested.

2. Had a call from SWFC's Safety/Security bloke this morning as I e-mailed them to find out what happened with the turnstiles. He's claiming the club had no communication from SYP that trams had been stopped & 500+ Blades would be arriving late & all together. So they'd gone to normal post kick-off routine to close all but 2 turnstiles. Poor decision to do that as counting people in they knew that 500+ people hadn't arrived yet but again claimed they had "no idea where they were". Says they opened 2 more turnstiles as soon as they could get operators back to man them as they were watching the match! Apologised for the experience & says he would be taking the matter up with SYP as they're meeting to discuss in light of dirty weeds turning up on Sunday.

I'm not bothered about getting any money back. I just want the atrocious organisation & communication between SYP & SWFC to be called to task. Next e-mail (for what it's worth) will be to PCC for SYP. Then MP's for S2 & S6. Then Donald Trump as no doubt he'll have a view....
Your approach sounds just right (and very time-consuming potentially). And I hope you get others to provide you with supporting evidence. Steer clear of Trump - he will simultaneously support and condemn the authorities...;)
 
That failure in communication WAS the single biggest cause of that disaster years ago....yet here we are in the age of communication and technology and those simple errors are taking place again. It’s not as if those fans were only 2 minutes away and deciding to turn up late of their own making....the cops held them back a mile from the ground. It was obvious what was going to happen.

You have to ask if it was actually a deliberate tactic by SYP to show who is 'boss'. By demonstrating their force to hold the fans back and then deliberately making them queue, they rubbed the Blades' noses in it.

They had all the radios and CCTV to avoid this, but chose not to. Ask yourself why this might be?

It really wouldn't surprise me to find out that this was actually planned in advance, then the same old diversion lies afterwards to mask it.
 

You have to ask if it was actually a deliberate tactic by SYP to show who is 'boss'. By demonstrating their force to hold the fans back and then deliberately making them queue, they rubbed the Blades' noses in it.

They had all the radios and CCTV to avoid this, but chose not to. Ask yourself why this might be?

It really wouldn't surprise me to find out that this was actually planned in advance, then the same old diversion lies afterwards to mask it.
Bet it doesn't happen to the pigs in the return fixture. They will be allowed to arrive as and when, twatting any easy blade target on their merry way. With the wonderful syp as spectators.
 
As I said in the other thread you would have thought our resident Star reporters would be on to this story like a shot considering it is South Yorkshire Police and Leppings lane yet again

Wholly agree with this a genuine story of interest and nobody's covering it?
Come on Danny04 are you waiting for one of us to write the bastard for you? A lot of info a;ready shared on here a lot of ideas you can copy and follow up...
 
You have to ask if it was actually a deliberate tactic by SYP to show who is 'boss'. By demonstrating their force to hold the fans back and then deliberately making them queue, they rubbed the Blades' noses in it.

They had all the radios and CCTV to avoid this, but chose not to. Ask yourself why this might be?

It really wouldn't surprise me to find out that this was actually planned in advance, then the same old diversion lies afterwards to mask it.

I don’t believe it was anything planned along those lines.
The problem is this.
Jumped up smart arse commanders with no real experience of football from a supporters view, making decisions that are overly complex and assumptive with no contingencies for it not working. Naivety is the issue.

Add the fact that Police numbers are stretched, the size of the crowd and the little bit of spice to the game being the first in a while and you had a recipe for failure.
They had a problem, they had a group of fans they wanted to get out the pub to the ground who were under the influence and boisterous. They didn’t want them wandering up themselves as the chances are there would have been flash points and potential disorder.
So their simple plan was to stuff them all on trams.....lovely....sorted. Until fans who are rightly pissed off at being herded like cows and crammed in a pen object and pull the cord to stop it. Now they have a problem.....panic. Use powers not designed for that situation to halt them, and then rile them up as the game approaches by taking an age to decide what to do.
What a mess.


What they should have done was close the pub as soon it was clear numbers were building there. Make them leave in dribs and drabs to break up the pack, and keep moving them all on. That way they could pick out those looking for trouble and concentrate their efforts. Enough police should have been available to deal with any disorder.
But perhaps the geography of that area makes it harder too. After all it’s a shit hole, whereas at our place they can be bused in easily and make the area sterile of home supporters if needed.
 
it was decided that fans would be segregated prior to the match and that the Blades fans would be marshalled together together at City Hall, Supertram would provide several special trams for those fans and they would be provided with a police escort to get them straight to Leppings Lane, non-stopping. The regular service trams were given time to get ahead, so that it would be a clear run.

There were, I believe, three special trams sent out from Nunnery Depot to City Hall to pick up said fans. Normally with heavy loadings Supertram just let the fans get on - when they've decided the tram is full enough then the doors are closed and they set off. Not today - the police were forcing fans onto the tram in a bid to make it as full as possible and get as many people up to the ground as possible. There were approximately 600 fans on the first tram.

Once they'd filled the tram up, the police then decided that that perhaps they should have some coppers on board. So they then pulled some of the fans off the tram so they could get on board. At this point the doors were shut and the tram moved forward to allow the tram behind to pull into the platform. The process was repeated.

Now I doubt very much you've been on a tram with 599 other people, I doubt you've been on a tram with that many other people when it's 30+ inside the tram. I'm sure you are aware however that there's no air conditioning on the tram, or any 'fans' except for the heating. So when the tram isn't moving there is no air circulation and it gets very hot indeed.

This loading occurred at City Hall approximately 12:00.

The first tram was initially held for around 10 minutes, before the police escort set off. They were escorted down West Street, then when they got to the junction before Shalesmoor there were police motorcyclists waiting for the trams to continue the escort. However the police forgot there was more than one tram - so the first tram was held on Infirmary Road for several minutes while the trams behind got their signals and caught up. The plan was that the police would hold traffic to allow all three trams to pass through Shalesmoor quickly.

As you can imagine at this point the temperature on board the tram was very uncomfortable, there was no communication between the police and Supertram and therefore no communication with the fans on board.

When the convoy got going again they managed to get as far as Bamforth Street before the police held them again. By this point a lady at the rear of the first tram had fainted. With no way to contact the driver and/or anybody else the people on board the tram tried to open the doors. Eventually somebody pulled the emergency door release and the fans poured out of the tram. The lady who had collapsed was treated at the side of the road while YAS treated her.

Meanwhile SYP started to escort the fans off the first tram towards Hillsborough whilst moving the now empty tram and the two trams following behind the fans.

Just prior to the Interchange the police then decided to block the road off with police vans, hold the blades fans in one place until the riot police turned up. They then proceeded to put the fans back onto the first tram. Now bear in mind that a) the Supertram staff on the ground were telling the police that the doors were damaged and it wasn't safe to load the fans back onto the tram and b) the tram was not in a platform this wasn't a particularly safe thing to do.

SYP continued to load the fans onto the tram, with police officers at each door manhandling fans onto the tram. Many of the blades fans were protesting against this and were being forced onto the tram. The driver of the tram was instructed to close the doors of the tram by SYP while fans were still being forced aboard. At one point a police officer was holding one set of doors open while another was trying to close then. This resulted in, I believe, a broken set of doors.

This was approximately 12:55, so the majority of fans had been on the tram for nearly an hour. On the second tram there was a pregnant lady who was feeling ill - so whilst SYP were loading the first tram back up they were TAKING people off the second tram. (Are you starting to see how bloody chaotic the whole thing was?).

They then attempted to set off again, but of course the fans on the first tram who had been riled up and aggravated by SYP were confused as to why they had been forced back onto a tram and the supporters behind were being let off. Of course at this point the doors of the first tram are damaged - so the tram can't actually move!

It was utter carnage, and had SYP just moved the tram convoy as quickly as possible through Hillsborough the worst damage may have been a broken window or two. Instead the whole plan unravelled, they had to bring in vans of riot police and NPAS Carr Gate.

I stand by my belief that SYP caused the majority of the trouble through their poor planning, poor communication and poor decision making.

In the interests of full disclosure I have previously worked for Supertram
 
I don’t believe it was anything planned along those lines.
The problem is this.
Jumped up smart arse commanders with no real experience of football from a supporters view, making decisions that are overly complex and assumptive with no contingencies for it not working. Naivety is the issue.

Add the fact that Police numbers are stretched, the size of the crowd and the little bit of spice to the game being the first in a while and you had a recipe for failure.
They had a problem, they had a group of fans they wanted to get out the pub to the ground who were under the influence and boisterous. They didn’t want them wandering up themselves as the chances are there would have been flash points and potential disorder.
So their simple plan was to stuff them all on trams.....lovely....sorted. Until fans who are rightly pissed off at being herded like cows and crammed in a pen object and pull the cord to stop it. Now they have a problem.....panic. Use powers not designed for that situation to halt them, and then rile them up as the game approaches by taking an age to decide what to do.
What a mess.


What they should have done was close the pub as soon it was clear numbers were building there. Make them leave in dribs and drabs to break up the pack, and keep moving them all on. That way they could pick out those looking for trouble and concentrate their efforts. Enough police should have been available to deal with any disorder.
But perhaps the geography of that area makes it harder too. After all it’s a shit hole, whereas at our place they can be bused in easily and make the area sterile of home supporters if needed.


Two things.

Pulling the cords did not cause the second tram to stop or the doors to open. The cord on the tram I was on was pulled in full view of an Inspector who explained it wouldn't have any effect. Only then did anyone try to force the doors. When they did open, it was at the request of an officer because of the heat.

There were more than enough police there for the two trams of fans.

Actually three things. I'm certain there was no trouble or hooliganism from the fans on those trams. Everyone was pretty well behaved considering what we had to put up with.
 
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it was decided that fans would be segregated prior to the match and that the Blades fans would be marshalled together together at City Hall, Supertram would provide several special trams for those fans and they would be provided with a police escort to get them straight to Leppings Lane, non-stopping. The regular service trams were given time to get ahead, so that it would be a clear run.

There were, I believe, three special trams sent out from Nunnery Depot to City Hall to pick up said fans. Normally with heavy loadings Supertram just let the fans get on - when they've decided the tram is full enough then the doors are closed and they set off. Not today - the police were forcing fans onto the tram in a bid to make it as full as possible and get as many people up to the ground as possible. There were approximately 600 fans on the first tram.

Once they'd filled the tram up, the police then decided that that perhaps they should have some coppers on board. So they then pulled some of the fans off the tram so they could get on board. At this point the doors were shut and the tram moved forward to allow the tram behind to pull into the platform. The process was repeated.

Now I doubt very much you've been on a tram with 599 other people, I doubt you've been on a tram with that many other people when it's 30+ inside the tram. I'm sure you are aware however that there's no air conditioning on the tram, or any 'fans' except for the heating. So when the tram isn't moving there is no air circulation and it gets very hot indeed.

This loading occurred at City Hall approximately 12:00.

The first tram was initially held for around 10 minutes, before the police escort set off. They were escorted down West Street, then when they got to the junction before Shalesmoor there were police motorcyclists waiting for the trams to continue the escort. However the police forgot there was more than one tram - so the first tram was held on Infirmary Road for several minutes while the trams behind got their signals and caught up. The plan was that the police would hold traffic to allow all three trams to pass through Shalesmoor quickly.

As you can imagine at this point the temperature on board the tram was very uncomfortable, there was no communication between the police and Supertram and therefore no communication with the fans on board.

When the convoy got going again they managed to get as far as Bamforth Street before the police held them again. By this point a lady at the rear of the first tram had fainted. With no way to contact the driver and/or anybody else the people on board the tram tried to open the doors. Eventually somebody pulled the emergency door release and the fans poured out of the tram. The lady who had collapsed was treated at the side of the road while YAS treated her.

Meanwhile SYP started to escort the fans off the first tram towards Hillsborough whilst moving the now empty tram and the two trams following behind the fans.

Just prior to the Interchange the police then decided to block the road off with police vans, hold the blades fans in one place until the riot police turned up. They then proceeded to put the fans back onto the first tram. Now bear in mind that a) the Supertram staff on the ground were telling the police that the doors were damaged and it wasn't safe to load the fans back onto the tram and b) the tram was not in a platform this wasn't a particularly safe thing to do.

SYP continued to load the fans onto the tram, with police officers at each door manhandling fans onto the tram. Many of the blades fans were protesting against this and were being forced onto the tram. The driver of the tram was instructed to close the doors of the tram by SYP while fans were still being forced aboard. At one point a police officer was holding one set of doors open while another was trying to close then. This resulted in, I believe, a broken set of doors.

This was approximately 12:55, so the majority of fans had been on the tram for nearly an hour. On the second tram there was a pregnant lady who was feeling ill - so whilst SYP were loading the first tram back up they were TAKING people off the second tram. (Are you starting to see how bloody chaotic the whole thing was?).

They then attempted to set off again, but of course the fans on the first tram who had been riled up and aggravated by SYP were confused as to why they had been forced back onto a tram and the supporters behind were being let off. Of course at this point the doors of the first tram are damaged - so the tram can't actually move!

It was utter carnage, and had SYP just moved the tram convoy as quickly as possible through Hillsborough the worst damage may have been a broken window or two. Instead the whole plan unravelled, they had to bring in vans of riot police and NPAS Carr Gate.

I stand by my belief that SYP caused the majority of the trouble through their poor planning, poor communication and poor decision making.

In the interests of full disclosure I have previously worked for Supertram


Your point about getting as many on the tram as possible in town is spot on. We were on the second tram and despite it being well overcrowded it was held up by the police who were intent on getting even more people on.
 
Wholly agree with this a genuine story of interest and nobody's covering it?
Come on Danny04 are you waiting for one of us to write the bastard for you? A lot of info a;ready shared on here a lot of ideas you can copy and follow up...

There was a piece on this yesterday afternoon as another poster already pointed out on the other thread, highlighting the first-hand footage a United fan took: http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/polic...fans-miss-steel-city-derby-kick-off-1-8771787
 
A complaint to the ipc needs to be made by as many people as possible, supertram cctv will back up absolutely everything. Thats if syp dont make the cctv dissaper (again). We cant put up with this and until we put up a fight and its investigated, it will continue to happen. Come on resident star reporter Danny04 , youve got the makings of a big story here.
 
You really couldn't make this shit up could you.

People are constantly saying that the reason for the overkill and OTT segregation in this city is down to the council and SYP taking no chances in light of April 1989, yet we still get those scenes outside Leppings Lane in 2017.

Incompetent doesn't begin to cover it.
 
In all seriousness, the best way of bringing 'them' to task is to contact the media.. national media too. There's a strong thread here with the ground and SYP abilities failing the public in the past - definitely newsworthy on the right day. They will be mindful of this and concerned as it's clear they are culpable and are playing it down.
 

A complaint to the ipc needs to be made by as many people as possible, supertram cctv will back up absolutely everything. Thats if syp dont make the cctv dissaper (again). We cant put up with this and until we put up a fight and its investigated, it will continue to happen. Come on resident star reporter Danny04 , youve got the makings of a big story here.

I am a just a, 'mild middle of the road kind of person' and have never really been a star basher, but I have to say Danny04 silence on this matter is fairly deafening.
 

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