Official Hawkeye reason given

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Deadbat's letter ....

Spot on. Let's be blunt. This club has suffered enough at the hands of shit executives (not just McCabe) questionable imprisonment of our top striker, the incredibly clear flouting of regulations regarding player ownership and countless other smaller dogturds on our lawn. It's about time summat went right for us. Had Villa scored, that is three points they'd have gained and they would have been out of the relegation zone. Had we scored (as we did, legally) we'd be better positioned to challenge for European qualification.

We need to not let this drop.

pommpey
 

If the cameras in their words were occluded by the players and the goalposts, then how was the system able to give the correct decision when the Crystal Palace keeper did almost the same as what happened against Villa?

Thats before he dropped it over the line, but it’s almost the same scenario to what happened, yet this was given.

D85DA5A9-18DC-4DC5-9482-92070BEB5208.jpeg
 
If the cameras in their words were occluded by the players and the goalposts, then how was the system able to give the correct decision when the Crystal Palace keeper did almost the same as what happened against Villa?

Thats before he dropped it over the line, but it’s almost the same scenario to what happened, yet this was given.

View attachment 83362

Spot on...I should have cited loads of examples probably such as this really. They need to release the 7 images from the 7 camera angles ( film follow up to 7 brides to 7 brothers!) at the time.

Only then will the statement have any credibility.
 
Hawkeye need to be brought to task their explanation isn't good enough and an apology unacceptable
United should demand to see evidence why the set up wasn't working and if not satisfied should pursue legal recourse

If the guy at stockley park knew it was a goal and didnt say anything that should be the end of var in this country as it's actually doing the opposite of what it was brought in for now its not spotting clear and obvious errors instead its spending five minutes redefining the offside rule and trying to disallow every goal scored

its no coincidence that we are bottom with -5 and man utd are top with +8 on the var league table and that doesn't account for the ridiculous man city goal and the ghost goal the other day

man utd would have got that goal because they would have harassed the referee until he looked at it ,every player would have been.in.his face stopping the game restarting until he looked at it and instead of the players being lambasted for breaking the new protocols they would have all been lauded for sporting integrity and great refereeing and use of var

so in short ,if you want the right decision break the rules
 
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If the cameras in their words were occluded by the players and the goalposts, then how was the system able to give the correct decision when the Crystal Palace keeper did almost the same as what happened against Villa?

Thats before he dropped it over the line, but it’s almost the same scenario to what happened, yet this was given.

View attachment 83362

One thing to say about the Palace goal was it was obvious from the camera with the view looking down from above that the ball was over the line.

I do not see how that view could have been blocked at Villa Park. And Sky, for some reason, did not show that overhead view immediately after the incident. They normally do.
 
Agree. And reiterate that that is also what the linesman is there for.
The ref/linesman/VAR official have 100% faith that GLT is infallible. Why would they check? Even if it looked "wrong", they have been clearly told to stay out of any yes/no goal decisions. To them, how could it ever be a goal, the watch didn't buzz. So there wasn't anything to check.

They have some slight fault in this, but they were following the guidelines. If they'd gone to a VAR check and it wasn't a goal then their boss and the league would have gone nuts at them for putting doubt into their perfect GLT system. The fault lies with Hawkeye and whoever forgot to turn whatever part of the system on that didn't work

That's a strange take on it imo. :rolleyes: If you believe that the officials shouldn't be questioning the technology, then we may as well do away with the officials altogether.

I see Keith Hackett came out and said this yesterday...

“I have expressed this in the past and I will continue to express it and that is that the referee must the sole arbiter and as a result must have the ability to view the pitch-side monitor.

I agree totally with this.

I also agree with the view expressed yesterday by Steve Bruce, that the referee HAS to be the one in charge and making the decisions and should have stopped the game and consulted VAR.
 
Cameras were "occluded" (I learnt a new word this week. They could have said "obstructed" but that's too simple). They weren't obstructed by the goalkeeper as he was behind the post. Indeed, at the time the ball is over the line, Tyrone Mings is stood halfway over the line. Number 39 is also halfway over (picture below). Now if these cameras are placed at shin, waist and chest height then I'll accept the obstructed excuse. I'm guessing they aren't... So the excuse is bollocks. As we all know.

Screenshot_20200619_072549_com.android.chrome.jpg
 
That's a strange take on it imo. :rolleyes: If you believe that the officials shouldn't be questioning the technology, then we may as well do away with the officials altogether.

I see Keith Hackett came out and said this yesterday...

“I have expressed this in the past and I will continue to express it and that is that the referee must the sole arbiter and as a result must have the ability to view the pitch-side monitor.

I agree totally with this.

I also agree with the view expressed yesterday by Steve Bruce, that the referee HAS to be the one in charge and making the decisions and should have stopped the game and consulted VAR.
I didn't say they shouldn't check. I said they don't check. They have been told that the GLT is perfect and that it doesn't need to be monitored.

I also agree with the point that the ref should be in charge. I haven't said any different
 
One thing to say about the Palace goal was it was obvious from the camera with the view looking down from above that the ball was over the line.

I do not see how that view could have been blocked at Villa Park. And Sky, for some reason, did not show that overhead view immediately after the incident. They normally do.
They didn't show the overhead view as it wasn't working. Despite them saying it was. If its working, prove it. Prove the obstructions.
 
PGMOL have said they are not going to change procedures as a result of this. No surprise there. Riley and his bunch of arrogant idiots have taken this stance all season as there tiresome meddling with the laws has been shown to be inept and wrong.

Officials not flagging offside or just using their feckin eyes when the ball has gone in the net because they are scared to prove their own tech is fallible .

I am a complete cynic. I love being in the Prem just to see Wilder and the boys showing the art of the possible.

I hate the Prem itself because it is and always will be skewed to 6 teams. VAR has not changed this. We still have the same little men with big egos making decisions in favour of the big boys. They are just sat in a portakabin no where near the ground doing it.

When you hear the likes of Gallagher and Riley talk you know the lunatics have taken over the asylum. The best ref is the one you don't notice. What have we talked about all season? Referees! It's worse than before tech, which suggests it ain't working.

Meanwhile their beloved Man Ure will scrape into Europe and we will win platitudes. Utter utter Bollocks.
 
I didn't say they shouldn't check. I said they don't check. They have been told that the GLT is perfect and that it doesn't need to be monitored.

I also agree with the point that the ref should be in charge. I haven't said any different

Well maybe it's the way you've said it mate, but I read that as you saying the referee shouldn't check (you put: "Why would they check? - There was nothing to check") I think there was something to check personally. And you said they are only "slightly" at fault and are following the guidelines. I see it very different to that, and this is nothing personal but quite honestly I think football fans everywhere should not be accepting the excuses made. And they were excuses - in fact, it is pure bullshit that they've given. Let's not swallow it or make further excuses for them. We need to stand together as football fans on things like this.

There was sufficient evidence that the ball had gone over the line - never mind bloody Hawk-eye not buzzing. What about the reaction of the players and the position of the goalkeeper and the bulging of the net? If Oliver didn't see any of that then he should take a trip to Barnard Castle to test his eyesight. Not only that, but he could, at the very, very least, gone over to the the linesman and asked..."did tha see owt?" and then he could have stopped the game and asked VAR for their view on it - and reviewed that before re-starting play.

He didn't do any of that.

He's at fault.

End of.
 
We’re all demanding the pictures or a proper explanation to what happened.

Imagine if they did say it should have been awarded and say either the tech wasn’t working or pictures clearly showing the ball over the line. There’d be all sorts of challenges to contentious decisions over the years questioning its viability in football. Not to mention what happened in this game if we miss out on a European payday by a point or if Villa stay up on the basis of that point.

It’s like the Shelvey goal earlier this season, if that, or what happened at Villa Park to one of the so called big 6 there’d be outcry from everyone saying Hawkeye doesn’t work and VARs useless, but as it's happened to little old Sheffield United again it’s brushed under the carpet and we’re told to get on with it.
 
Well maybe it's the way you've said it mate, but I read that as you saying the referee shouldn't check (you put: "Why would they check? - There was nothing to check") I think there was something to check personally. And you said they are only "slightly" at fault and are following the guidelines. I see it very different to that, and this is nothing personal but quite honestly I think football fans everywhere should not be accepting the excuses made. And they were excuses - in fact, it is pure bullshit that they've given. Let's not swallow it or make further excuses for them. We need to stand together as football fans on things like this.

There was sufficient evidence that the ball had gone over the line - never mind bloody Hawk-eye not buzzing. What about the reaction of the players and the position of the goalkeeper and the bulging of the net? If Oliver didn't see any of that then he should take a trip to Barnard Castle to test his eyesight. Not only that, but he could, at the very, very least, gone over to the the linesman and asked..."did tha see owt?" and then he could have stopped the game and asked VAR for their view on it - and reviewed that before re-starting play.

He didn't do any of that.

He's at fault.

End of.
But genuinely, why would they check? They have been told under no uncertain circumstances that GLT is infallible.

As I've said in other posts, imagine if Oliver had gone to VAR and it hadn't been a goal? That would have been genuinely harmful to his career because he would be openly checking the veracity of a system that the PGMOL and Premier League have sold as infallible.

We are arguing different points here. Of course it should be the referee's responsibility to make decisions. But that power has been taken away by the PGMOL and PL. To expect individuals to go against that is a lot to ask

I do attache fault to the referee. But he's not at the top of the list, nowhere near
 
My e mail I have sent to 6 different e mail accounts on the Hawkeye website- if I dont get a response i will send it again and keep sending it - made me feel a bit better sending it anyway....

---

To whom it may concern,


I am emailing you to seek clarity regarding your statement of June 17th, 2020, following the application of your Hawkeye Goal Line technology during the Premier League match between Aston Villa and Sheffield United.


In the 42nd minute of the game a cross from Oliver Norwood was dropped over the line by the Aston Villa goalkeeper, No 25 Nyland as you refer to him. Those in the stadium (players, coaches, media) and watching on TV could clearly see that, in both live speed and immediately afterwards, with several TV replays from different angles (at least 3 shown on Sky Sports) the ball had crossed the line by some distance. The normal signal to the watch that should result from such a clear and obvious situation of the ball being over the line did not happen. The referee motioned that nothing came up on his watch to players enquiring. We assumed at the time that there was an issue with the technology and it was not working properly. Whether it was human error or a glitch/fault with the technology this was the only rational explanation. This may have been in terms of not switching the system on, activating cameras, activating the watch, activating the cameras or ensuring the process was synced.


I was therefore very surprised and somewhat angered by the statement that you put out later in the evening after the conclusion of the game.

Your statement read as follows:


“During the first half of [the] Aston Villa v Sheffield United match at Villa Park, there was a goal line incident where the ball was carried over the line by Aston Villa goalkeeper, No. 25 Nyland.


“The match officials did not receive a signal to the watch nor earpiece as per the Goal Decision System (GDS) protocol. The seven cameras located in the stands around the goal area were significantly occluded by the goalkeeper, defender, and goalpost.

“This level of occlusion has never been seen before in over 9,000 matches that the Hawk-Eye Goal Line Technology system has been in operation.


“The system was tested and proved functional prior to the start of the match in accordance with the IFAB Laws of The Game and confirmed as working by match officials. The system has remained functional throughout. The system has remained functional throughout. HawkEye unreservedly apologises to the Premier League, Sheffield United, and everyone affected by this incident.’’

I would like to discuss some of the points you make and also ask some questions that I believe need to be answered in more detail using your very own detailed ‘How it Works? Guide’ contained on your own website – link shown below for reference.


https://resources.platform.pulselive.com/test/HawkEye/document/2015/08/10/6546e487-0c72-45f9-b4f2-3d45f649ae1f/Hawk-Eye's_GLT_How_it_Works.pdf


You accept that the match officials did not receive a signal to the watch or ear piece and that the seven cameras were occluded by the goalkeeper, defender, and goalpost.


Your own guide states that; ‘Camera Technology Hawk-Eye installs 7 cameras per goal, the most common location is on the roof of the stadium, however there is a great deal of flexibility in the camera positions.’


I would like to ask where the 7 cameras were located in Villa Park; due to the fact that at least 3 cameras used on Sky Television picked up that it had clearly crossed the line? The flexibility you discuss means it would be obvious from above (the most common location that you refer to in the above statement) and either angle of the goal on each side that the ball had crossed the line. You also state that the cameras were significantly occluded by players and the post. The evidence suggests this is incorrect as the ball was behind the post so the post or any player would not have occluded the ball as it was clearly visible. There seems to be no way that one of your 7 cameras would not have picked this up unless they were all located in the same place.


Related to this, you state yourself that ‘the system is able to locate the ball even if it is only found in 2 of the 7 cameras. There has never been a goal line incident where the ball would not have been seen by any of the Hawk-Eye cameras.’ I would suggest that you now need to change this statement as it is incorrect and legally may have ramifications for you; which I will discuss at the conclusion of my questions.


Your guide goes on to say that: ‘The Definitive Replay Hawk-Eye utilises a dedicated high speed camera capable of removing the players from the image, to ensure the ball is fully visible. This provides the definitive replay for broadcast and digital media’


Yet your statement is to the contrary stating that, ‘The seven cameras located in the stands around the goal area were significantly occluded by the goalkeeper, defender, and goalpost.’ So either your statement is wrong or the technology cannot remove players from the image? Which is it? Clarity on this would be useful.


Your statement post game goes onto say that “This level of occlusion has never been seen before in over 9,000 matches that the Hawk-Eye Goal Line Technology system has been in operation.’’ I am sorry but this is in my opinion not only incorrect but insulting to millions of football fans around the world. There have been multiple occasions where goalkeepers have carried it over the line, have been next to the post and other players have been in the line of a camera. This was not an incident where the ball was on the line and several players presided over a ruck and it could not be seen akin to that where a try is scored and ruled upon in rugby? The ball was clearly visible without the need to even remove players or a post.


However, as described above you have the technology to remove these anyway so it would not matter would it not? Your system has been used superbly in various leagues and I have actually praised how accurate, quick and reliable it has been. I have often marvelled at incidents where I was not sure one way or another but the checks and camera footage showed the incident and cleared up any doubt. This needs stating as not only a counter balance to the incident last night but also as reference to how this incident was any different to the countless others that have been picked up so clearly?


You go on to state that the system was working throughout but if it was working why did we not see any release of the 7 camera angles at the time the ball crossed the line? Surely, if these are released and we see the level of occlusion; then we can maybe consider your words against the evidence? Yet, none of these were released – why is that? You state the cameras and the system were working. For your own credibility alone showing the issues that the cameras had in picking up the ball being over the line would be of great interest for everyone and certainly for the clubs involved (of which they are numerous at both ends of the Premier League). It would at least restore some belief in your statement.


Millions of pounds are at stake for both teams in terms of European places and relegation. I believe that your apology and statement needs further explanation to re-establish credibility in your system which now as you admit has a serious flaw within it; if it cannot pick up a clear and obvious incident such as that of last night. I would hope for your sake that clubs do not open litigation at the conclusion of the season but believe clarity to some of the above and further evidence to the statement you posted, would be advantageous for your company moving forward.



I await your response to my queries.



Yours Sincerely,
That’s a great email Deadbat and deserves a proper response.

But you won’t get one.

They will be in crisis mode right now, figuring out the best strategy for avoiding losing a lucrative contract with the PL and wider long term reputational damage.

Their concern will be the company bottom line not addressing concerns and providing honest answers.

I am surprised that they moved quickly to put out a statement that created more questions than it provided answers. I would guess that someone is in deep shit for that decision.
 
But genuinely, why would they check? They have been told under no uncertain circumstances that GLT is infallible.

As I've said in other posts, imagine if Oliver had gone to VAR and it hadn't been a goal? That would have been genuinely harmful to his career because he would be openly checking the veracity of a system that the PGMOL and Premier League have sold as infallible.

We are arguing different points here. Of course it should be the referee's responsibility to make decisions. But that power has been taken away by the PGMOL and PL. To expect individuals to go against that is a lot to ask

I do attache fault to the referee. But he's not at the top of the list, nowhere near

I think you summed it up well - "it would be harmful to his career".

It's the same in business (and football is business whether we like it or not), people are afraid of taking responsibility and doing the right thing if it has the potential to impact upon them negatively. I do understand that, totally. It takes balls to stand up to something that isn't right if it is going to have possible negative effects on someone personally. Some people have the courage to do it - it's called "leadership". It needn't be negative if it's done in the right way.

Where we fundamentally disagree is the role of the referee. You seem to be accepting that the power of the referee has been taken away from him and he shouldn't go against that. I'm of the view that the referee still is the man in charge and that the technology is there to assist him, not to rule him, and he has every right to question it.

As mentioned in the quote from Keith Hackett,

"the referee must the sole arbiter"

If we lose sight of that, then we've lost sight of the game imo.

I haven't seen anything from the PGMOL or PL to suggest that referees should now be slaves to the technology - but I do agree with you that this is the way it seems to be going and referees need to stand up to that - and so do the fans.
 

IF nothing is done about it & I'm not holding my breath on that, the best we can all hope for is that what happened, come the end of the season, has absolutely no bearing on anything. And then they make changes so that VAR can step in, if necessary in the future. It's not bloody difficult. It's not like VAR isn't there.
As has been mentioned many times, what happens though if Villa stay up by one point that they shouldn't have had or you miss out on qualifying for the Europa or even worse, the CL?
Imo, to just do nothing now & hope that it doesn't affect anything come the end of the season, is wrong & clearly brings the integrity of the game into disrepute.
Who could have imagined that the first goal in the first game back, was going to be missed?
Who was it, Arsene fucking Wenger checking it?
 
There is a question, which hasn't been answered yet.

In Stockley Park, The VAR officials sat and must have seen the fucking ball cross the line. They therefore KNEW it was a goal. Regardless of whether Oliver got a bleep from the technology, they KNEW a goal had been scored. As Oliver waved play on, they still knew (and hopefully suspected) the tech had failed and that our goal had been wrongly chalked off. Not a minute later, play stopped down by our area for a free kick, so there was plenty of opportunity for those cloth-heads to buzz Oliver and tell him to check his pitchside monitor. They still knew that the whole of the ball had crossed the line.

Where is their fucking conscience in this?

pommpey

The Ref, Linesmen and VAR officials all thought Hawkeye was 100% accurate so had no reason to check.
Like Clattenburg said the officials have all becomes to reliant on Technology being 100% accurate when its not and never can be.
This will now change of course doesn't help United unfortunately but at least we have flagged up that you can not totally rely on the Technology.
 
I think you summed it up well - "it would be harmful to his career".

It's the same in business (and football is business whether we like it or not), people are afraid of taking responsibility and doing the right thing if it has the potential to impact upon them negatively. I do understand that, totally. It takes balls to stand up to something that isn't right if it is going to have possible negative effects on someone personally. Some people have the courage to do it - it's called "leadership". It needn't be negative if it's done in the right way.

Where we fundamentally disagree is the role of the referee. You seem to be accepting that the power of the referee has been taken away from him and he shouldn't go against that. I'm of the view that the referee still is the man in charge and that the technology is there to assist him, not to rule him, and he has every right to question it.

As mentioned in the quote from Keith Hackett,

"the referee must the sole arbiter"

If we lose sight of that, then we've lost sight of the game imo.

I haven't seen anything from the PGMOL or PL to suggest that referees should now be slaves to the technology - but I do agree with you that this is the way it seems to be going and referees need to stand up to that - and so do the fans.
I said you can see why the ref would be loathe to question GLT, I haven't offered an opinion other than confirming I attribute some fault to Oliver.

I'm taking the view that the Refs have been told to trust GLT implicitly from the fact that the only reference point the referee used for goal/no goal was his watch. It never even crossed his mind to ask the linesman or the VAR official. Oliver is a pretty good referee to be honest - for him to not do either of those things shows that he was following the guidance on how to act in the situation.

I hate VAR. That is not an opinion formed this season when we have suffered from it, it's an opinion I've held since it's inception. It's unnecessary and it makes the end product worse
 
The Ref, Linesmen and VAR officials all thought Hawkeye was 100% accurate so had no reason to check.
Like Clattenburg said the officials have all becomes to reliant on Technology being 100% accurate when its not and never can be.
This will now change of course doesn't help United unfortunately but at least we have flagged up that you can not totally rely on the Technology.
The VAR officials aren’t sitting around playing monopoly with their backs to the screens unless and until they are asked to check something.

What happened was self evident to them just as much (maybe even more so if they get feeds of all the cameras) as it was to everyone in the world watching the game.

To ignore what they saw and knew to be the case was negligent to say the very least.
 
IF nothing is done about it & I'm not holding my breath on that, the best we can all hope for is that what happened, come the end of the season, has absolutely no bearing on anything. And then they make changes so that VAR can step in, if necessary in the future. It's not bloody difficult. It's not like VAR isn't there.
As has been mentioned many times, what happens though if Villa stay up by one point that they shouldn't have had or you miss out on qualifying for the Europa or even worse, the CL?
Imo, to just do nothing now & hope that it doesn't affect anything come the end of the season, is wrong & clearly brings the integrity of the game into disrepute.
Who could have imagined that the first goal in the first game back, was going to be missed?
Who was it, Arsene fucking Wenger checking it?

Doing something about it is as political in football as anywhere else. Power, money and influence dictate actions and in this case doing something has implications for those at the bottom and more importantly for Arsenal, Spurs and Man Utd at the top. Doing something impacts on the possibility of those 3 missing out on a European place, not doing anything impacts on those at the bottom including The Hammers. In this case, the world cup winners will be deemed expendable, so they will decide to do nothing. Looking a bit bent and possibly corrupt is worth the financial benefits of Newton Heath at al generating millions in European competitions.

Welcome to our world HammerInPeace
 
Go on then, who added this to Paul Tierney's Wikipedia page:

"On June 17, 2020, Tierney was the match VAR official for the first Premier League game after COVID-19 between Aston Villa and Sheffield United. A clear own goal was scored by the Aston Villa goalkeeper when he inadvertently fell over the goal line after catching the ball. The ball can be seen clearly over the line from multiple video replays. Hawk eye did not went off and the VAR did not review the non goal."

Perhaps a bit hasty as the grammar needs a bit of work, maybe change either the "clear" or "clearly" (don't have both anyway) and "did not went off" needs some work. Good effort though.
 
The ongoing deafening silence from the Premier League is precisely what I expected.

They will have taken a decision on Wednesday evening to keep their heads down and not comment, in the reasonable knowledge that they only needed to tough it out for 48 hours before the Spurs v Man U match came around.

Premier League officials will have reasoned that as long as they could ride out the initial storm, the likelihood would be that as soon as that fixture came on to the radar, the mass media would move on and all attention would switch to what I'm sure many of them regard as the first proper match in the re-start.

Having read and listened to various sports media this morning, it appears that the Premier League have been vindicated in their decision to hide. The ghost goal is heading under the carpet, if not already there. In the corporate world that the Premier League inhabits, its basic crisis reputation management and it's worked a treat.

United must keep asking the questions.
 
The ongoing deafening silence from the Premier League is precisely what I expected.

They will have taken a decision on Wednesday evening to keep their heads down and not comment, in the reasonable knowledge that they only needed to tough it out for 48 hours before the Spurs v Man U match came around.

Premier League officials will have reasoned that as long as they could ride out the initial storm, the likelihood would be that as soon as that fixture came on to the radar, the mass media would move on and all attention would switch to what I'm sure many of them regard as the first proper match in the re-start.

Having read and listened to various sports media this morning, it appears that the Premier League have been vindicated in their decision to hide. The ghost goal is heading under the carpet, if not already there. In the corporate world that the Premier League inhabits, its basic crisis reputation management and it's worked a treat.

United must keep asking the questions.

Absolutely. If we want to do something sign here:

https://www.change.org/p/english-premier-league-replay-the-sheffield-united-aston-villa-match

To add to Deadbat 's superb letter.
 
It’s not even 1:9000 tbh. How many times has Hawk-Eye actually been called on to make a goal line decision in 9000 games? I dunno...300? 400? More?? Less?? If the actual error rate is, say, 1in 300 then it doesn’t look that clever now, does it?

This is a bloody good point. In those 9000 games, how many GLT decisions were made? How many of them were non-obvious (i.e. back of the net bulging etc.)? How many of them were close line-calls? How many of them were goal-mouth scrambles with, say, more than 4 players on the line? And so on. Once you start removing those items from the "9000 List" the odds of Hawk-Eye fucking up starts looking far less favourable.

One thing to say about the Palace goal was it was obvious from the camera with the view looking down from above that the ball was over the line.

I do not see how that view could have been blocked at Villa Park. And Sky, for some reason, did not show that overhead view immediately after the incident. They normally do.
They didn't show the overhead view as it wasn't working. Despite them saying it was. If its working, prove it. Prove the obstructions.
People need to stop banging on about the "overhead view" that Hawk-Eye didn't supply or Sky didn't show. That image isn't from a camera. It's CGI - special effects. It's a rendered image from the mathematical model they use to work out if the ball has crossed the line. If the system has lost the ball, for whatever reason, at the wrong moment, then this data won't be available and the render can't be produced.

Similarly, people need to not carry on talking about the Sky cameras picking it up and such. The Sky cameras did, clearly, which is why everyone in the entire worl knows it went over the line, including Hawk-Eye, Michael Oliver, Paul Teirney, the PGMOL, the EPL, UEFA and IFAB. Noone is saying the ball didn't cross the line. The footage was available to VAR who didn't review it. That has no bearing on Hawk-Eye, which uses dedicated, and very very different, cameras from the broadcast-spec ones Sky use.

Also, think about where the Hawk-Eye cameras are. It's not just people on the goal line that could block the view. I still find it bizarre that this is the first ever time that at least 6 of the 7 cameras had their view totally blocked at exactly the wrong second, but I can at least conceive that it is believable such an arrangement COULD occur. But lets face it, the ball was behind the line for more than just a split-second so it wasn't exactly momentary as Nyland was looking sheepish for at least 3 seconds as he got up off his arse, so how come the cameras didn't momentarily lose the ball and then pick it up again clearly over the line? THAT is the question we should be asking!

The ongoing deafening silence from the Premier League is precisely what I expected.

They will have taken a decision on Wednesday evening to keep their heads down and not comment, in the reasonable knowledge that they only needed to tough it out for 48 hours before the Spurs v Man U match came around.

Premier League officials will have reasoned that as long as they could ride out the initial storm, the likelihood would be that as soon as that fixture came on to the radar, the mass media would move on and all attention would switch to what I'm sure many of them regard as the first proper match in the re-start.

Having read and listened to various sports media this morning, it appears that the Premier League have been vindicated in their decision to hide. The ghost goal is heading under the carpet, if not already there. In the corporate world that the Premier League inhabits, its basic crisis reputation management and it's worked a treat.

United must keep asking the questions.
I mentioned to a friend of mine that, given the outcomes, i bet the EPL are glad that the Black Lives Matter protests etc. all happened. All the players taking the knee mean that focus will be on that show of support, so the EPL can keep quiet and hide behind that until this shitstorm blows over. Of course, as a result of that, i then got accused of equating the importance of #BLM to not being awarded a goal in a footy match and got the typical virtue-signalling lecture i've come to expect if you don't immediately throw yourself on the sword for such movements... but my point still stands. World events like #BLM enable the EPL to focus on the positive message of footballs support for an important equality movement, and all the while use it as a screen for the fact the Laws are in a state and the governing bodies are so incompetent they couldn't find their respective arses with both hands...
 
This is a bloody good point. In those 9000 games, how many GLT decisions were made? How many of them were non-obvious (i.e. back of the net bulging etc.)? How many of them were close line-calls? How many of them were goal-mouth scrambles with, say, more than 4 players on the line? And so on. Once you start removing those items from the "9000 List" the odds of Hawk-Eye fucking up starts looking far less favourable.



People need to stop banging on about the "overhead view" that Hawk-Eye didn't supply or Sky didn't show. That image isn't from a camera. It's CGI - special effects. It's a rendered image from the mathematical model they use to work out if the ball has crossed the line. If the system has lost the ball, for whatever reason, at the wrong moment, then this data won't be available and the render can't be produced.

Similarly, people need to not carry on talking about the Sky cameras picking it up and such. The Sky cameras did, clearly, which is why everyone in the entire worl knows it went over the line, including Hawk-Eye, Michael Oliver, Paul Teirney, the PGMOL, the EPL, UEFA and IFAB. Noone is saying the ball didn't cross the line. The footage was available to VAR who didn't review it. That has no bearing on Hawk-Eye, which uses dedicated, and very very different, cameras from the broadcast-spec ones Sky use.

Also, think about where the Hawk-Eye cameras are. It's not just people on the goal line that could block the view. I still find it bizarre that this is the first ever time that at least 6 of the 7 cameras had their view totally blocked at exactly the wrong second, but I can at least conceive that it is believable such an arrangement COULD occur. But lets face it, the ball was behind the line for more than just a split-second so it wasn't exactly momentary as Nyland was looking sheepish for at least 3 seconds as he got up off his arse, so how come the cameras didn't momentarily lose the ball and then pick it up again clearly over the line? THAT is the question we should be asking!


I mentioned to a friend of mine that, given the outcomes, i bet the EPL are glad that the Black Lives Matter protests etc. all happened. All the players taking the knee mean that focus will be on that show of support, so the EPL can keep quiet and hide behind that until this shitstorm blows over. Of course, as a result of that, i then got accused of equating the importance of #BLM to not being awarded a goal in a footy match and got the typical virtue-signalling lecture i've come to expect if you don't immediately throw yourself on the sword for such movements... but my point still stands. World events like #BLM enable the EPL to focus on the positive message of footballs support for an important equality movement, and all the while use it as a screen for the fact the Laws are in a state and the governing bodies are so incompetent they couldn't find their respective arses with both hands...
This is why is find their explanation difficult to swallow. Nyland was sat in the back of the net with the ball behind the line for 2 or 3 seconds. Surely as players moved around the cameras should have picked it up again.
Also Sky showed numerous camera angles with an unobstructed view of the ball over the line. How it that 7 cameras which are positioned specifically to view the goal line were obscured why Sky cameras were not?
Sounds like bullshit to me.
 
This is why is find their explanation difficult to swallow. Nyland was sat in the back of the net with the ball behind the line for 2 or 3 seconds. Surely as players moved around the cameras should have picked it up again.
Also Sky showed numerous camera angles with an unobstructed view of the ball over the line. How it that 7 cameras which are positioned specifically to view the goal line were obscured why Sky cameras were not?
Sounds like bullshit to me.
That first bit I can't explain. I understand how the Hawk-Eye technology works - how it locates the ball and works out it's position and how it can "remove" the players from the model (the ball is governed in it's movements by physics, players are not, so it's easy to predict the path of the ball, hence things not on that path can be ignored while ever there are enough cameras to keep tracking the ball) and so on... so while it smells iffy, I can accept that there is SOME arrangement whereby the ball is obscured from 6 of 7 cameras. There are other questions around that issue - like why is there not at least an overhead camera on a post looking directly down on top of the goal etc., but that isn't the issue in my eyes. The issue is why did the system seemingly give up trying to locate the ball, and not pick it up again after that momentary blocking of the view had passed?

The second point is that Sky specifically align a camera on the goal line, but the positioning of it doesn't have to be "accurate" in the same way the Hawk-Eye cameras do. Even if Hawk-Eye DID have a camera there, that might have been the 1 camera from 7 that could still see the ball, but because it couldn't be seen by another camera then it couldn't work out where the ball was (i.e. it was over the line but outside the post). You can't locate something in 3d space only knowing 2 points.
 
Not sure if this has been mentioned before on this, or any of the other many threads on the matter, but a thought did occur to me - what if Villa had gone straight up the other end and scored or got a penalty?

Surely then VAR would have had to get involved and go back and check the build up to the goal.

Then they would have been forced to see what had happened and disallowed their goal/pen and awarded ours.

Though this is VAR we are talking about, so they would have probably given us a corner for their goalie taking the ball over the line and out of play... 😜
 
No VAR intervention
As for the Video Assistant Referee, PGMOL, the organisation responsible for match officials, stated after the match that under IFAB protocol, the VAR is able to check goal situations.

However, in this instance, due to the fact that the on-field match officials did not receive a signal, and the unique nature of that, the VAR chose not to intervene.

What a load of bullshit that statement is.
If your kids are fighting, you intervene to make it right. If they're playing nice and doing as they should, there's not reason to intervene.

You "intervene" to prevent something from happening.
 

What a load of bullshit that statement is.
If your kids are fighting, you intervene to make it right. If they're playing nice and doing as they should, there's not reason to intervene.

You "intervene" to prevent something from happening.

So what they are actually saying is that they sat at Stockley Park and witnessed a clear goal and an obvious wrong decision and made the ACTIVE DECISION to do nothing about it. I use of the words “clear” and “obvious” for clear and obvious reasons. Basically they KNEW a blatant mistake had been made and that it was a goal and they CHOSE to IGNORE the fact. In what world is that the correct course of action?
 

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