Less of a Footballing failure, more a Business failure

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Yep. If he can score 24 for Swansea up front on his own, heā€™ll have a beano here next season.
 
Yep. If he can score 24 for Swansea up front on his own, heā€™ll have a beano here next season.
mcburnie doesnt fit our system and ive more hope with brewster next season than him who i think will get 20 plus goals mcburnie can go for me dont rate him at all
 
Hmmm, interesting OP. Iā€™m not too sure. Of course more money is always better but if weā€™ve spent the quoted Ā£130m on transfers (which wonā€™t be that much due to ā€˜add onsā€™). What have we increased our wage bill to, by signing these players and the wage bonuses for existing players and staff ?

We have simply bought players in a premium market and they have turned out shit or average. The best out of our recent signings looks like itā€™ll be Bogle and thatā€™s really it.

Thereā€™s several clubs who are only a bad summer window away from relegation, but ours has been catastrophic, weā€™re going to end up relegated in a spectacular fashion.

Moneh, scouting, transfer policy, system, shape etc. I just hope the enquiry has started now
 
All we can do is turn up in numbers next season to give the club the boost in the pocket it needs. It obviously makes a much bigger difference in the championship
 
The better the player, the more he earns, the bigger the transfer fee.
Unless they're older, but then maybe the wages are too high?

Mainly basing this on just a couple of players in their late 20s who went for less or similar than we paid for some of our players.

Anyway, it's all irrelevant now, we got who we got, now we have to get the best out of them otherwise we're in a hole.
 
Hmmm, interesting OP. Iā€™m not too sure. Of course more money is always better but if weā€™ve spent the quoted Ā£130m on transfers (which wonā€™t be that much due to ā€˜add onsā€™). What have we increased our wage bill to, by signing these players and the wage bonuses for existing players and staff ?

We have simply bought players in a premium market and they have turned out shit or average. The best out of our recent signings looks like itā€™ll be Bogle and thatā€™s really it.

Thereā€™s several clubs who are only a bad summer window away from relegation, but ours has been catastrophic, weā€™re going to end up relegated in a spectacular fashion.

Moneh, scouting, transfer policy, system, shape etc. I just hope the enquiry has started now

My basic point is that the window was bound to be shit because our restricted budget meant we only ever had limited options. We were never going to get any great players.

We might have got away with it - close margins e.g. the first West Brom game, Brighton and we could have picked up 10 points out of first 10 games and still been in the battle. But we didn't get the breaks and injuries have exposed our thin squad.

Was that lack of ambition? Lack of financial backers? Or did the Prince just think that cos Wilder had pulled it off once he could do it again?
 
So if we had spent more (eg another 50 million) in all probability we would be up with Villa and Leeds and looking forward to another season in the prem?
 
Unless they're older, but then maybe the wages are too high?

Mainly basing this on just a couple of players in their late 20s who went for less or similar than we paid for some of our players.

Anyway, it's all irrelevant now, we got who we got, now we have to get the best out of them otherwise we're in a hole.
To whom are you referring?
 
Bravo sir.

You OK with Bluebell Wood (good cause and you can screenshot your donation as proof when you lose šŸ˜‰) ?

UTB

If BanderSerge can't commit, I'm more than happy to take Ā£100 off you (for Bluebell Wood), for a Ā£20 stake.

20 goals all competitions (pro-rata that on games played, if he leaves in the 2022 JTW).
 
If BanderSerge can't commit, I'm more than happy to take Ā£100 off you (for Bluebell Wood), for a Ā£20 stake.

20 goals all competitions (pro-rata that on games played, if he leaves in the 2022 JTW).
OK just you n moi. The other guy had his chance. You snooze, you lose šŸ˜‚

A few conditions :-

1. in the spirit of fairness, based on a full CHAMPIONSHIP season of 46 games PLUS all rounds of domestic cup comps. If by some miracle or misfortune we find ourselves not being in the championship for season 2021 / 2022, all bets off and renegotiate !!
2. No play off games.
3. NO PRO RATA. Has to be a full season with SUFC. This was the spirit in which the bet was set up so if you want a piece, thatā€™s how it is šŸ˜€.
4. Official goals only. Donā€™t need any of the apologists inventing stuff to suit. Do we ?šŸ˜‰.
5. Loser to confirm by way of screenshot that the losing bet has been paid as a donation to BlueBell Wood.

Please confirm your acceptance ASAP.

UTB
 
Robinson lasted 6 months.

Freeman effectively the same.

Early judgements can and have been made.

Unless many of those listed improve their individual performances, and quickly, a similar outcome is inevitable. It could be strongly argued several are already there.

The judgement in this case, I am afraid, will be that they have been both bad signings and, poor players for SUFC.

If it IS taking us 3 years to get something like out of these players, that is far too long and, as such, will also mean they have been poor signings.

Just exactly how long do you think it should take ?

Not sure I can take another year of 1 or 2 of them, who have been, IMHO abject.

UTB
I agree three years is too long.
Not every signing is successful at any club, but it is too early to judge whether Bogle, Lowe, Burke and Brewster are successes.
If three of those come good next year as well as Berge, then that is good business in footballing terms
 

OK just you n moi. The other guy had his chance. You snooze, you lose šŸ˜‚

A few conditions :-

1. in the spirit of fairness, based on a full CHAMPIONSHIP season of 46 games PLUS all rounds of domestic cup comps. If by some miracle or misfortune we find ourselves not being in the championship for season 2021 / 2022, all bets off and renegotiate !!
2. No play off games.
3. NO PRO RATA. Has to be a full season with SUFC. This was the spirit in which the bet was set up so if you want a piece, thatā€™s how it is šŸ˜€.
4. Official goals only. Donā€™t need any of the apologists inventing stuff to suit. Do we ?šŸ˜‰.
5. Loser to confirm by way of screenshot that the losing bet has been paid as a donation to BlueBell Wood.

Please confirm your acceptance ASAP.

UTB
If I should coco doesn't take it then I will.

With an extra:

6. If he leaves the club part way through the season or becomes long term injured (misses more than 5 consecutive games at any point through injury, not shitness) we both owe Ā£20 to Bluebell Wood.
 
OK just you n moi. The other guy had his chance. You snooze, you lose šŸ˜‚

A few conditions :-

1. in the spirit of fairness, based on a full CHAMPIONSHIP season of 46 games PLUS all rounds of domestic cup comps. If by some miracle or misfortune we find ourselves not being in the championship for season 2021 / 2022, all bets off and renegotiate !!
2. No play off games.
3. NO PRO RATA. Has to be a full season with SUFC. This was the spirit in which the bet was set up so if you want a piece, thatā€™s how it is šŸ˜€.
4. Official goals only. Donā€™t need any of the apologists inventing stuff to suit. Do we ?šŸ˜‰.
5. Loser to confirm by way of screenshot that the losing bet has been paid as a donation to BlueBell Wood.

Please confirm your acceptance ASAP.

UTB

If I should coco doesn't take it then I will.

With an extra:

6. If he leaves the club part way through the season or becomes long term injured (misses more than 5 consecutive games at any point through injury, not shitness) we both owe Ā£20 to Bluebell Wood.

I'll take your 5 conditions and add in derekacorah 's one to cvover him leaving.

Okay for you?
 
I'll take your 5 conditions and add in derekacorah 's one to cvover him leaving.

Okay for you?
Done.

Ill copy these and remind you in May 2022.

This might surprise one or two, but I sincerely hope it is me that is paying up next year as it will have been to the benefit of SUFC šŸ˜€.

Therefore, good luck šŸ‘.

UTB
 
Done.

Ill copy these and remind you in May 2022.

This might surprise one or two, but I sincerely hope it is me that is paying up next year as it will have been to the benefit of SUFC šŸ˜€.

Therefore, good luck šŸ‘.

UTB
I'll match the Ā£20 with I should coco anyway, your initial Ā£100 is your only liability. I think I'll be paying out but it's a good cause.
 
Hmmm, interesting OP. Iā€™m not too sure. Of course more money is always better but if weā€™ve spent the quoted Ā£130m on transfers (which wonā€™t be that much due to ā€˜add onsā€™). What have we increased our wage bill to, by signing these players and the wage bonuses for existing players and staff ?

We have simply bought players in a premium market and they have turned out shit or average. The best out of our recent signings looks like itā€™ll be Bogle and thatā€™s really it.

Thereā€™s several clubs who are only a bad summer window away from relegation, but ours has been catastrophic, weā€™re going to end up relegated in a spectacular fashion.

Moneh, scouting, transfer policy, system, shape etc. I just hope the enquiry has started now
I'm with most of this. It's very easy in hindsight to list everything that's gone wrong, but really it comes down to two basic things. Firstly no one could have known that players who have served Wilder so well for so long would no longer be good enough to even start. A lack of quality overall was known and a relegation battle on the cards, but abject failure wasn't. It should be remembered that many of these failed signings people talk about were signed with the belief that the existing team would be good enough to put up a decent fight on their own.
Secondly, no one could have expected the new signings to be as hopeless as they have been. In some cases there was far too much expectation, in others there was a step up involved, but really few could have known how badly some of them were going to perform this season.
Which brings me back to hindsight, it's easy to say the players brought in weren't good enough because we didn't offer enough wages, because it's easy to assume that causality, but it is more difficult to say that several different players on higher wages would have done any better. I'm not sure there needs to be much of an inquiry.
 
There's a fatal flaw in all these threads (Wilder out/keep Wilder, Brewster is shit, why aren't we playing Burke) that we are seeing this as a footballing failure which can be fixed by footballing decisions.

It's actually a business failure: The root cause of our struggles is the same most other struggling businesses: cash flow.

We could spend a bit on transfer fees, which might never end up getting paid, but wages that have to come out the bank every month? We haven't got the cash. It was always going to be tough but with Covid the tap has turned off.

Result of that is we had to give up Deano and take 3rd or 4th choice transfers who'd accept the low wages. And this January, not even a loan signing.

The better news is we go into next season in Championship with low wage bill. Fans back in the stadium and the tills ringing again we'll get the finances sorted and the football successes will follow.

Knowing this will make you less pointlessly angry at our loyal and hardworking players so we can give them our support. Even as they struggle and fail to get a shot off, even against Fulham ffs.
I agree with the gist. At the same time, I'm not sure anyone can argue paying Ā£20M for Ramsdale, and Ā£25M for Brewster (the value of the transfer) is anything other than a football fuck up.
 
I agree with the gist. At the same time, I'm not sure anyone can argue paying Ā£20M for Ramsdale, and Ā£25M for Brewster (the value of the transfer) is anything other than a football fuck up.
We didn't pay Ā£20m for Ramsdale (closer to Ā£10m) and Brewster was Ā£23m.
 
Money spent on transfers is not necessarily relevant to cashflow especially if you can do part-exchange or buy from clubs who owe you money
Wages on the other hand are cash, so a limited cashflow severely limits the wage bill you can sustain.

Unfortunately, wages have more impact on the quality of recruitment than the transfer fee. Good players want high personal rewards.
It is our low wages that have prevented us from improving the squad and lack of cash that has prevented us from paying higher wages.
Therefore, it is cashflow that has played the biggest part in our poor season.

You are right, apart from Bogle, none of the signings rate more than 6/10. Because we would have to pay between 50k and 100k per week for any player good enough to have significantly improved the squad. It doesn't matter how clever your scouts are - if you are not offering what they are worth, they will go to someone who will.

So we recruited from a very limited pool of players:
1. Players from teams that we could do swaps with or who owed us money so we didn't have to lay out any cash on the transfers
2. Players who are not worth more than 10k-30k a week so wouldn't get a better offer elsewhere

Bearing that in mind, our recruitment doesn't look too bad. But its not going to win you many games in the Premier League

Read Soccernomics by Simon Kruper and Stefan Szymanski

I get what youā€™re saying. But I still think itā€™s reductive to say we couldnā€™t have improved the squad for the outlay we spend. Not every player needs to be on 50k+ a week to be a PL footballer. We could have been more inventive in the recruitment.

we could have utilised the loan market (1 domestic 1 foreign unused).

we could have built the squad so as not to leave a gaping chasm in midfield or Centeback following one or two injuries. Our recruitment has been hugely lopsided. Weve not spent anything on creativity since promotion, seemingly just wanting fullbacks and strikers.

JOC was done before the transfer window and we left that gap unplugged. same in midfield where there was literally zero squad depth.

we may still have gone down but we might have given ourselves a fighting chance of competing
 
We didn't pay Ā£20m for Ramsdale (closer to Ā£10m) and Brewster was Ā£23m.
Is that right? Where did you get that (Ā£10m) fee from? Presumably you aren't offsetting the money owed for Brookes, as some have tried to do?

I actually thought it was Ā£18M and Ā£23M, but I rounded up or effect! :)
 
Berge aside, Iā€™d suggest all of your so called ā€œgamblesā€ have absolutely not paid off as yet. 100%.

Time is running out for some of them to turn the tide.

My genuine concern is that based on what I have seen, itā€™s difficult to predict huge upticks in performances in a lower division.

Slow is slow.
Weak is weak.
Poor technique is poor technique.

And the goals donā€™t get any bigger either !!!

UTB

I'd throw Berge in the "not paid off yet" pile too.
 
Is that right? Where did you get that (Ā£10m) fee from? Presumably you aren't offsetting the money owed for Brookes, as some have tried to do?

I actually thought it was Ā£18M and Ā£23M, but I rounded up or effect! :)
The fee paid was close to Ā£10m, I remember it was widely reported as Ā£18.5m but then I've seen various articles since saying it was 'up to' Ā£18.5m.

I suppose if you want to argue he's shit then using the highest value strengthens your case, but I don't think that's the true figure.
 
The fee paid was close to Ā£10m, I remember it was widely reported as Ā£18.5m but then I've seen various articles since saying it was 'up to' Ā£18.5m.

I suppose if you want to argue he's shit then using the highest value strengthens your case, but I don't think that's the true figure.
Iā€™ve seen both figure quoted, but generally linked with a ā€œwe only paid X because they owed us Y for Brookesā€.

I donā€™t think either of the players are shit, just a huge distance away from what their fees (even at the lower end) suggest.

If Ramsdale was fresh out of the youth team, Iā€™m not sure anyone would think ā€œweā€™ve got a player in our hands hereā€.

If weā€™d gambed a mllion, Iā€™d say that was about right. I can see him not being ready for the championship next season. So either way, weā€™ve got it horribly wrong.
 

Iā€™ve seen both figure quoted, but generally linked with a ā€œwe only paid X because they owed us Y for Brookesā€.

I donā€™t think either of the players are shit, just a huge distance away from what their fees (even at the lower end) suggest.

If Ramsdale was fresh out of the youth team, Iā€™m not sure anyone would think ā€œweā€™ve got a player in our hands hereā€.

If weā€™d gambed a mllion, Iā€™d say that was about right. So either way, weā€™ve got it horribly wrong.
I'm ignoring the whole Brooks thing because it makes the club look more incompetent.

You are right though, they don't seem to represent value for money so far.
 

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