Fiddling away in High Court while our Premier League chances burn.

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Surely that whatever happens in the court case it is in the best interests of both parties that CW is given sufficient funds to continue the successful upward curve of the team. In some ways, as long as CW is happy, why should we give the impression we have loads of money to throw away on some overrated player. I am sure CW has already said that he will try, as best he can, to get players that fit in to his idea of how we should progress. No massive fees, egos and aging superstars and all the rubbish that goes with it.
 
Woodwardfan said:
The club doesn't stop functioning but we've only got a quarter tank full of petrol for the journey.

It's a bit of a challenge when most of your competitors are on Superleaded and have a full tank and a trailer with reserves on it.
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That may be the case but they're running diesel guzzlers whilst we have a modest 1.0L TSI engine under the hood keeping us going until we find that chepaer petrol station.
 
Bristol Blade said:
Sorry, but that’s bollocks.

There must already be 20+ threads where this has been discussed to death in detail. If the OP wants to learn more about it then he can read any of those, rather than starting a new one.

If you are happy reading endless, tedious, uninformed threads on the same topic then go ahead, but I would imagine the vast majority of posters on here aren’t.
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Just don't then why sly comments
 
Woodwardfan said:
Wednesdayites couldn't write the script, it beggars belief.

SUFC income multiplies this year by way above £100m. In the Championship our income was around £20m.

We are in Court for another 3 weeks, who knows when the judgement will be made and whether there will be an appeal. In all likelihood there will be a split-ruling between the owners and then they have to find a way to work together anyway, at least to sell-up.. The season will probably be under way before any positive actions come from either party.

Should McCabe win 100% control then a takeover has to be undertaken and formalised. That can take weeks and weeks.

OK all this has been said before but my simple question is - "What is going to happen to all the extra money in the meantime?"

If rumours are true that the spending budget for this summer is only £20m. What happens to all the rest of the new cash?

The January Transfer Window will be an opportunity to invest in the playing squad but we all know the best deals don't happen then and incoming players need to settle into the club.

What's the earliest date that proper funding can be introduced for the manager to spend?

If Wilder is content to take on the Premier League with just the £20m then I'm worried anyway, despite his confidence and his achievements to date.

What happens to all the cash that is swishing around S2? The sale price of the club is supposed to be £140m if KM gains 100% control, it's obvious where that goes.

If we only spend £20m what profit will our club make during the 12 months we are relegated? Loads and loads! Even after that we receive monumental parachute payments. Then we will be recovering a downward momentum rather than building on our upward momentum.

Hey you two owners. Where's t'money gooing?
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Where exactly has this "rumour" come from we have a £20m budget? You must be a complete barm pot to think this will be common knowledge around Sheffield before we actually spent said budget
 
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derekacorah said:
This court case is just something to moan about, it won’t impact the operations and signings of the club.

I also don’t like all this ‘we’ve got £100m’ talk. That’s broadly the revenue we’ll earn next season. Against that we will have a wage bill approaching £50m (as a guesstimate), then we’ll have other operating costs that befit a PL club. We’ll also spend around £20m-£30m (one would assume) on players to be able to compete. These signings will therefore give us a ‘cost’ next season of around £10m (this is not the same as cash as they’ll be amortised over assumed 3 year contracts).

Ideally we’ll turn a profit of around £30m and this will allow us to both compete and build the following season. At which point the costs go up again and the profit reduces. At some point if we stay up we end up not making a profit.

Who would invest in football?!
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I think the revenues coming into the club will exceed £100m

Huddersfield raked in that for finishing bottom

We will get the minimum £100m + more if we finish higher than bottom (+ is there an increase in prize money for next season?)

Then there is ST sales, corporate, advertising and of course shirt sponsorship, which is supposed to be quite lucrative, if all the hype is to be believed. There could even be extra sell on fees coming in? Che Adams? David Brooks? although we can't include those because we don't know these deals will happen

I don't include the extra parachute payments because we don't get that unless we get relegated
 
Woodwardfan said:
Exactly and the fact is that two hopefuls who are each praying they will win the court case, rather than knowing whether they'll even have a half share anymore, will not agree as big a budget as they would if they were here for the longer haul. If anybody disagrees with that logic then we clearly differ in opinion.

Not only that but neither will know their personal stake in the club until the case is concluded and the judge rules. That could be weeks and weeks. Fact, not opinion.

When the case is decided then each of the two owners will have a share each or one will have nothing at all. If they still have a share then the bigger shareholder will presumably make decisions. Could be in September, even later.

If McCabe wins 100% he will sell the club but won't hand over the full control until his shares are fully purchased. That could be anytime. Fact.

Compared with continuing owners with the medium to long term interests of the club in mind, the squabbling pair will not commit any more than absolutely necessary. If the potential new American owners had bought from McCabe already, it stands to sense to me that they would be investing much more heavily than we are right now. That's opinion.
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CW has a budget which I'm sure will be fairly flexible depending on the perceived value of the player(s) we are interested in.
It's how it was done last season and seemed to work well.
Despite the owners dispute, it won't affect the team.
 
Blade58 said:
I think the revenues coming into the club will exceed £100m

Huddersfield raked in that for finishing bottom

We will get the minimum £100m + more if we finish higher than bottom (+ is there an increase in prize money for next season?)

Then there is ST sales, corporate, advertising and of course shirt sponsorship, which is supposed to be quite lucrative, if all the hype is to be believed. There could even be extra sell on fees coming in? Che Adams? David Brooks? although we can't include those because we don't know these deals will happen

I don't include the extra parachute payments because we don't get that unless we get relegated
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Turnover in 2018 was £20m. That included around £8m in tv/media monies iirc. So £12m. I’d expect this to treble, which is why l used an estimate of £140m in another thread.

As derekacorah said, there are substantial costs in the PL and there will be wage commitments contracted for more than one year as well as transfer fees etc. Ongoing and necessary improvements clearly indicate the money is being spent so l’m of the opinion that at least an interim budget is in place with a pot for January. Whether this is enough to satisfy Wilder currently is open to debate but knocking the owners for not spending when work is current seems rather odd.
 
Sean Thornton said:
Turnover in 2018 was £20m. That included around £8m in tv/media monies iirc. So £12m. I’d expect this to treble, which is why l used an estimate of £140m in another thread.

As derekacorah said, there are substantial costs in the PL and there will be wage commitments contracted for more than one year as well as transfer fees etc. Ongoing and necessary improvements clearly indicate the money is being spent so l’m of the opinion that at least an interim budget is in place with a pot for January. Whether this is enough to satisfy Wilder currently is open to debate but knocking the owners for not spending when work is current seems rather odd.
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Does anybody know when is the income arriving? Is it gradual over the season? Apart from season ticket income not much else will be received up front.

There will be plenty of early outgoing expense on the other hand, although transfer fees can be paid in instalments.

My anxiety is about cash flow between now and the end of the summer transfer window. I sense neither owner will be keen to bridge the time gap between expenditure and income. Neither knows whether they will get it back although it could be injected by loan. Is that likely? KM is against company debt. Any banker would be wary of the ownership dispute.

I agree each owner would hope to protect their asset value; if only they were sure they had asset value in there!

I was similarly concerned this time last year and the budget came eventually - cash introductions. This time there are much bigger numbers but at least there is certainly plenty of guaranteed income on it's way.

Last season we spent £5m on transfer fees alone. If the budget is indeed £20m it's nowhere near enough, not half enough.
 

Woodwardfan said:
My whole point is that the business will not get done in time and enough cash will not get spent before the Transfer Window shuts in August.

£20m budget just doesn't facilitate the numbers you are quoting.
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What is "in time"? What is "enough cash"? All parties know what SUFC have to pay on the improved/updated contracts which result from promotion. I'm sure you think it's all done on the back of a fag packet, but it's a little better than that. What is left can be considered for the capital outlay for players and the wages etc., the reserve fund for January and potential structural improvements. Wilder knows what he has and at the moment hasn't complained and nor has his mouthpieces.

Are you working under the misapprehension that until the Court case has finished the club cannot spend any money?
 
Woodwardfan said:
Does anybody know when is the income arriving? Is it gradual over the season? Apart from season ticket income not much else will be received up front.

There will be plenty of early outgoing expense on the other hand, although transfer fees can be paid in instalments.

My anxiety is about cash flow between now and the end of the summer transfer window. I sense neither owner will be keen to bridge the time gap between expenditure and income. Neither knows whether they will get it back although it could be injected by loan. Is that likely? KM is against company debt. Any banker would be wary of the ownership dispute.

I agree each owner would hope to protect their asset value; if only they were sure they had asset value in there!

I was similarly concerned this time last year and the budget came eventually - cash introductions. This time there are much bigger numbers but at least there is certainly plenty of guaranteed income on it's way.

Last season we spent £5m on transfer fees alone. If the budget is indeed £20m it's nowhere near enough, not half enough.
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When the income arrives is of little relevance, as transfers fees are paid over a period of time WWF.
 
Woodwardfan said:
Does anybody know when is the income arriving? Is it gradual over the season? Apart from season ticket income not much else will be received up front.

There will be plenty of early outgoing expense on the other hand, although transfer fees can be paid in instalments.

My anxiety is about cash flow between now and the end of the summer transfer window. I sense neither owner will be keen to bridge the time gap between expenditure and income. Neither knows whether they will get it back although it could be injected by loan. Is that likely? KM is against company debt. Any banker would be wary of the ownership dispute.

I agree each owner would hope to protect their asset value; if only they were sure they had asset value in there!

I was similarly concerned this time last year and the budget came eventually - cash introductions. This time there are much bigger numbers but at least there is certainly plenty of guaranteed income on it's way.

Last season we spent £5m on transfer fees alone. If the budget is indeed £20m it's nowhere near enough, not half enough.
Click to expand...

If you listen to the Bladespod with Kieran Maguire Beans discusses with Maguire how the revenue is front loaded in order to stimulate spending.

When we get paid is irrelevant though, banks will fund us if we are proposing sensible spending due to the fact that it’s guaranteed revenue over the course of the season. If we have to borrow some ‘bridging’ cash it won’t be a problem.

The accounts will also show the amount received in relation to the season, rather than the actual cash received in the season.
 
Blade58 said:
I think the revenues coming into the club will exceed £100m

Huddersfield raked in that for finishing bottom

We will get the minimum £100m + more if we finish higher than bottom (+ is there an increase in prize money for next season?)

Then there is ST sales, corporate, advertising and of course shirt sponsorship, which is supposed to be quite lucrative, if all the hype is to be believed. There could even be extra sell on fees coming in? Che Adams? David Brooks? although we can't include those because we don't know these deals will happen

I don't include the extra parachute payments because we don't get that unless we get relegated
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£100m is indicative. It might be more or less but this is the amount being bandied about so I used it for illustrative purposes.
 
Woodwardfan said:
My whole point is that the business will not get done in time and enough cash will not get spent before the Transfer Window shuts in August.

£20m budget just doesn't facilitate the numbers you are quoting.
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That’s nonsense, I’m sorry but the banks know that we’ll be receiving around £100m (maybe more). Therefore if we want to spend £20m this pre season then they’ll lend us that.

We don’t really need Prince and Kev to be best mates to guarantee this, we just need them to not behave like utter cunts. I’d hope that they are capable of this for the good of the club.
 
Sean Thornton said:
Turnover in 2018 was £20m. That included around £8m in tv/media monies iirc. So £12m. I’d expect this to treble, which is why l used an estimate of £140m in another thread.

As derekacorah said, there are substantial costs in the PL and there will be wage commitments contracted for more than one year as well as transfer fees etc. Ongoing and necessary improvements clearly indicate the money is being spent so l’m of the opinion that at least an interim budget is in place with a pot for January. Whether this is enough to satisfy Wilder currently is open to debate but knocking the owners for not spending when work is current seems rather odd.
Click to expand...


Does anybody know when is the income arriving? Is it gradual over the season? Apart from season ticket income not much else will be received up front.

There will be plenty of early outgoing expense on the other hand, although transfer fees can be paid in instalments.

My anxiety is about cash flow between now and the end of the summer transfer window. I sense neither owner will be keen to bridge the time gap between expenditure and income. Neither knows whether they will get it back although it could be injected by loan. Is that likely? KM is against company debt. Any banker would be wary of the ownership dispute.

I agree each owner would hope to protect their asset value; if only they were sure they had asset value in there!

I was similarly concerned this time last year and the budget came eventually - cash deposits. This time there are much bigger numbers but at least there is certainly plenty of guaranteed income on it's way. Last season we spent £5m on transfer fees alone. If the budget is indeed £20m it's nowhere near enough, not half enough.
Snowman said:
What is "in time"? What is "enough cash"? All parties know what SUFC have to pay on the improved/updated contracts which result from promotion. I'm sure you think it's all done on the back of a fag packet, but it's a little better than that. What is left can be considered for the capital outlay for players and the wages etc., the reserve fund for January and potential structural improvements. Wilder knows what he has and at the moment hasn't complained and nor has his mouthpieces.

Are you working under the misapprehension that until the Court case has finished the club cannot spend any money?
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No. Read the thread maybe.
 
Blade58 said:
I think the revenues coming into the club will exceed £100m

Huddersfield raked in that for finishing bottom

We will get the minimum £100m + more if we finish higher than bottom (+ is there an increase in prize money for next season?)

Then there is ST sales, corporate, advertising and of course shirt sponsorship, which is supposed to be quite lucrative, if all the hype is to be believed. There could even be extra sell on fees coming in? Che Adams? David Brooks? although we can't include those because we don't know these deals will happen

I don't include the extra parachute payments because we don't get that unless we get relegated
Click to expand...


Sorry, my point is about this transfer window.


derekacorah said:
That’s nonsense, I’m sorry but the banks know that we’ll be receiving around £100m (maybe more). Therefore if we want to spend £20m this pre season then they’ll lend us that.

We don’t really need Prince and Kev to be best mates to guarantee this, we just need them to not behave like utter cunts. I’d hope that they are capable of this for the good of the club.
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As an ex- banker I commented on a banker's concerns above.

Unless the two owners will petsonally guarantee the loans. Not sure they will.
derekacorah said:
If you listen to the Bladespod with Kieran Maguire Beans discusses with Maguire how the revenue is front loaded in order to stimulate spending.

When we get paid is irrelevant though, banks will fund us if we are proposing sensible spending due to the fact that it’s guaranteed revenue over the course of the season. If we have to borrow some ‘bridging’ cash it won’t be a problem.

The accounts will also show the amount received in relation to the season, rather than the actual cash received in the season.
Click to expand...


If plenty of the cash is front-loaded as you say then you alleviate my concerns but only IF the budget is enough. We have to compete and have £120m? extra income to play with. Largely useless if we don't spend it this transfer window though.
 
Woodwardfan said:
Does anybody know when is the income arriving? Is it gradual over the season? Apart from season ticket income not much else will be received up front.

There will be plenty of early outgoing expense on the other hand, although transfer fees can be paid in instalments.

My anxiety is about cash flow between now and the end of the summer transfer window. I sense neither owner will be keen to bridge the time gap between expenditure and income. Neither knows whether they will get it back although it could be injected by loan. Is that likely? KM is against company debt. Any banker would be wary of the ownership dispute.

I agree each owner would hope to protect their asset value; if only they were sure they had asset value in there!

I was similarly concerned this time last year and the budget came eventually - cash deposits. This time there are much bigger numbers but at least there is certainly plenty of guaranteed income on it's way. Last season we spent £5m on transfer fees alone. If the budget is indeed £20m it's nowhere near enough, not half enough.



No. Read the thread maybe.
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No idea when the money comes in. However most of it is guaranteed, so transfer fees can, as usually happen, be in stage payments.

Ongoing works suggest some monies are available as I would expect stage payments being made. We borrowed money against the Brooks payment via specialist lenders. We could do the same again. Because the majority of income is guaranteed and a lender simply takes a charge on it. Your suggestion that any “banker” would be wary is just scaremongering. There are far more lenders these days than the high street banks who lend to football clubs these days. I’ve given an example above for our own club only last year

You’re still banging on about £20m. Where is the source for that figure? Is it from the club.
 
Sean Thornton said:
Turnover in 2018 was £20m. That included around £8m in tv/media monies iirc. So £12m. I’d expect this to treble, which is why l used an estimate of £140m in another thread.

As derekacorah said, there are substantial costs in the PL and there will be wage commitments contracted for more than one year as well as transfer fees etc. Ongoing and necessary improvements clearly indicate the money is being spent so l’m of the opinion that at least an interim budget is in place with a pot for January. Whether this is enough to satisfy Wilder currently is open to debate but knocking the owners for not spending when work is current seems rather odd.
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Knock the owners? Absolutely I do.

The nature and timing of this dispute is obscene. The club is not being put first by both owners.
 
Woodwardfan said:
Sorry, my point is about this transfer window.




As an ex- banker I commented on a banker's concerns above.

Unless the two owners will petsonally guarantee the loans. Not sure they will.



If plenty of the cash is front-loaded as you say then you alleviate my concerns but only IF the budget is enough. We have to compete and have £120m? extra income to play with. Largely useless if we don't spend it this transfer window though.
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We borrowed money last year. Secured on monies due from Bournemouth. The charge was against the club. Personal guarantees? They aren’t buying a new washing machine. Banking has changed.

We don’t have £120m to “play with”. We have fixed costs, improvement costs, rising admin expenses and a huge new wage bill, it’s all rather glib and based solely on this mythical £20m and not a penny more scenario. The reality is very few people will know what the playing budget is and the likelihood of anyone on here knowing is exceedingly slim.

I’m afraid you seem to be heading down similar lines to an l know best routine that’s caused so much friction in the past. Which would be a shame because while your concerns are obviously genuine, you paint everything in darkest black, based on others speculations.
 
Woodwardfan said:
Sorry, my point is about this transfer window.




As an ex- banker I commented on a banker's concerns above.

Unless the two owners will petsonally guarantee the loans. Not sure they will.



If plenty of the cash is front-loaded as you say then you alleviate my concerns but only IF the budget is enough. We have to compete and have £120m? extra income to play with. Largely useless if we don't spend it this transfer window though.
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Agree with much of what you say Woody, fans who think we can easily get significant money to spent in this window as we stand are in cloud cuckoo land in my view. Secured against what or whom when no one knows who the owner will be?
Hence by their inability to reach a prompt out of court settlement this shows to me they are both in it for themselves more than the club or they'd settle quickly.
Time is important if we are to buy before the end of this window and we know from before in the Prem leaving it until the JTW is often too late.
Both sides are being dick heads at present.
Wonder if our US friends are just waiting knowing they will have a distressed sale at a cheaper price if they are patient or surely they would have offered them both a way out by now..
 
Sean Thornton said:
No idea when the money comes in. However most of it is guaranteed, so transfer fees can, as usually happen, be in stage payments.

Ongoing works suggest some monies are available as I would expect stage payments being made. We borrowed money against the Brooks payment via specialist lenders. We could do the same again. Because the majority of income is guaranteed and a lender simply takes a charge on it. Your suggestion that any “banker” would be wary is just scaremongering. There are far more lenders these days than the high street banks who lend to football clubs these days. I’ve given an example above for our own club only last year

You’re still banging on about £20m. Where is the source for that figure? Is it from the club.
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Sky usually pay a wedge up front in July to stimulate the transfer market. I believe part of the monies for Premier League ground updates are recoverable from the Premier League e.g wiring in referees room etc. so not the doom and gloom cash flow issues being perpetuated.
 

Woodwardfan said:
Knock the owners? Absolutely I do.

The nature and timing of this dispute is obscene. The club is not being put first by both owners.
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Again, you have no idea what’s happening behind the scenes. Saying that we aren’t spending money - without knowing even if any money has already been received - despite ongoing ground improvements and rather obvious wage increases.

They haven’t “timed” this themselves. The fall out occurred months ago. Take overs take time but court cases shouldn’t? Come on.

You gone from full on McCabist, to backing the Prince and now wishing a plague on both their houses.

We’ve been here before with your Old Moore’s Almanac predictions, and look what happened then.
 
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