Loans

[Redhead]

On the flip side, if we get promoted, big IF, then will Smith and the like never get a chance??
Now is the time for their 10mins of fame at the end of games, winning or losing, they should be getting chances now rather than us having to depend on them later.

Big, as you may know I agree with everything you say. Smith should have had a few minutes on Friday.
But, if he had played a few minutes he would not be elegible to play for a third team this season. Meaning no loan in January.

 

[Booker4]

That is not correct.

Mcguire, Naughton and Walker had not played any u21 football for there country when breaking into the side.


There are a huge number of young players more than capable of stepping up to there club first team.

England and Scotland squads from under 18 to 21 is a closed shop. Very few now break through if you have not been in their system at 16.

What I'm saying is that Walker Harry Maguire, Jags were England under 21 quality, maybe not when they first broke through but that's the quality they had and went onto achieve. You'll reply with that our youngsters need to play regularly in the team to become England under 21 and that's true but what I'm saying is that I don't think the youngsters we have right now are ready for Championship level, otherwise I believe Wilder would be giving them cameos. Instead he's loaned them out and I agree with that to see how they develop. Maybe there is another Kyle Walker in there, but I doubt it, a Kyle Walker, Harry Maguire and David Brooks, etc. are top players that came through and all came through at 18/19, and our lads at the same age are out on loan in the Conference and League Two. Maybe they'll go onto be good but for now I assume they're at the right level, I trust Wilder's judgement.

 

[Liverpool blade]

Loans are always the best idea for January. Watching quest last night and Swansea beating the piggies!!.
Routledge has been told he’s surplus to requirements. Could he do a job for us and could we afford him on loan?. UTB

 

[wizadry]

Loans are always the best idea for January. Watching quest last night and Swansea beating the piggies!!.
Routledge has been told he’s surplus to requirements. Could he do a job for us and could we afford him on loan?. UTB

Routledge would be perfect if we decide to play a striker with one player either side, we should surely be able to afford him if we were offering daft sums of money to Waghorn?

 

[Redhead]

What I'm saying is that Walker Harry Maguire, Jags were England under 21 quality, maybe not when they first broke through but that's the quality they had and went onto achieve. You'll reply with that our youngsters need to play regularly in the team to become England under 21 and that's true but what I'm saying is that I don't think the youngsters we have right now are ready for Championship level, otherwise I believe Wilder would be giving them cameos. Instead he's loaned them out and I agree with that to see how they develop. Maybe there is another Kyle Walker in there, but I doubt it, a Kyle Walker, Harry Maguire and David Brooks, etc. are top players that came through and all came through at 18/19, and our lads at the same age are out on loan in the Conference and League Two. Maybe they'll go onto be good but for now I assume they're at the right level, I trust Wilder's judgement.

Again I need to pull you up.

McGuire was fortunate enough to get a run in the team in an average L1 side to gain his experience. He was a big CB with no pace but had ability.
At that point you, me or anyone else had no idea at all that he would be good enough for the Championship never mind England or the Premiership.

Where the club is at, means our players need to go on loan to gain the experience McGuire got with us.

Please also remember clubs are not just waiting for SUFC to offer them a player.

Barrow needed a CF and were prepared to play Ty Smith. Maybe not the best league but it gave him games.
Likewise Callum Semple at QOTS. Not the highest standard but He now has close to 30 first team games.

Finally IMO Wilder does not play youth players in cameo rolls. It’s not his style. A signed player or squad player is always in the match day 17 if fit. What youth player has he brought through in 3 years.

Brooks was a fluke. He was off on loan until he had a great Summer. Then CW had no choice to include him. Even then he was used sparingly. DCL never even got a chance.

It is extremely easy to say we don’t have another Walker etc etc. They are one offs. We don’t need to produce Kyle Walkers we need to produce players better or on a par with what we have.

Just my opinion though as is yours pal.

 

[allypallyblade]

Again I need to pull you up.

McGuire was fortunate enough to get a run in the team in an average L1 side to gain his experience. He was a big CB with no pace but had ability.
At that point you, me or anyone else had no idea at all that he would be good enough for the Championship never mind England or the Premiership.

Where the club is at, means our players need to go on loan to gain the experience McGuire got with us.

Please also remember clubs are not just waiting for SUFC to offer them a player.

Barrow needed a CF and were prepared to play Ty Smith. Maybe not the best league but it gave him games.
Likewise Callum Semple at QOTS. Not the highest standard but He now has close to 30 first team games.

Finally IMO Wilder does not play youth players in cameo rolls. It’s not his style. A signed player or squad player is always in the match day 17 if fit. What youth player has he brought through in 3 years.

Brooks was a fluke. He was off on loan until he had a great Summer. Then CW had no choice to include him. Even then he was used sparingly. DCL never even got a chance.

It is extremely easy to say we don’t have another Walker etc etc. They are one offs. We don’t need to produce Kyle Walkers we need to produce players better or on a par with what we have.

Just my opinion though as is yours pal.

To be honest I did think Harry had quite a future in front of him, and don't think I was alone. Not saying England regular, or even PL regular but something much better that we had at that time. Having said that he wouldn't have played anything like as many games if we'd been a championship side and agree he would have been loaned in current circumstances .

 

[I should coco]

The names mentioned, such as Defoe in particular, would excite me. His age is against him, but his quality is as good as what you’ll ever see in this division.

We don't set up enough chances for Billy to miss, so why would suddenly create the chances for a player who is 5 years older?

BTW Billy has a better goal scoring rate (224 in 528 games = 42%) albeit they are mainly at a lower level (Defoe is 273 in 682 games = 40%).

Defoe to old for me, remember when Rush came, his legs had gone and was hopeless

This is a brilliant warning to all those clamouring for Defoe because he is a 'name'. Rush was well past it but presumably thought he could drop down a division and coast it. He made Hammond who did similar, look like a star.

More Dean Hendersons, less James Wilsons.

Fewer....

 

[Boxer Blade]

Defoe to old for me, remember when Rush came, his legs had gone and was hopeless

How about remembering last Friday night and a 38 nearly 39 year old midfielder played very well and scored a goal against us, Gareth Barry, far to old for our club, not every player should be judged only on his age, for every crock,journey man etc etc there is a Gareth Barry as well, its up to our management to decide who, some players look after themselves better than others.

 

[Razor1967]

Agree 100% with Cerberus. And I'd also add that in my opinion, Chris is very happy indeed with these loans, hence he didn't seem too upset at the 'no permanents in Jan' statement.

I think he is upset

 

[I should coco]

How about remembering last Friday night and a 38 nearly 39 year old midfielder played very well and scored a goal against us, Gareth Barry, far to old for our club, not every player should be judged only on his age, for every crock,journey man etc etc there is a Gareth Barry as well, its up to our management to decide who, some players look after themselves better than others.

Barry's game has never been about pace. Speed, Strachan and McAllister all played into their late 30s using their reading of the game to compensate for a physical slowdown.

Defoe's game definitely requires pace. He has other abilities but I really don't fancy a 36 year old striker on £50k per week. In recent years only oldies like Shearer (35) and Crouch (37) managed to play up front at the highest level, but neither had a game based on pace.

Defoe is simply too much of a risk, but as with many on here, it is very easy to take a risk like this when you are spending someone else's money.

 

[guancheblade]

If loans is the best we can do it doesn't bother me as long as we get the quality. Would rather have a premier league standard player, like Mitrovic last season, where we couldn't afford the transfer fee unless we got promoted anyway.

Plus it's not like our permanent signings from last January did us any good - all three have since moved on!

On the flip side the loan failed even more spectacularly (James Wilson)

 

[Booker4]

Again I need to pull you up.

McGuire was fortunate enough to get a run in the team in an average L1 side to gain his experience. He was a big CB with no pace but had ability.
At that point you, me or anyone else had no idea at all that he would be good enough for the Championship never mind England or the Premiership.

Where the club is at, means our players need to go on loan to gain the experience McGuire got with us.

Please also remember clubs are not just waiting for SUFC to offer them a player.

Barrow needed a CF and were prepared to play Ty Smith. Maybe not the best league but it gave him games.
Likewise Callum Semple at QOTS. Not the highest standard but He now has close to 30 first team games.

Finally IMO Wilder does not play youth players in cameo rolls. It’s not his style. A signed player or squad player is always in the match day 17 if fit. What youth player has he brought through in 3 years.

Brooks was a fluke. He was off on loan until he had a great Summer. Then CW had no choice to include him. Even then he was used sparingly. DCL never even got a chance.

It is extremely easy to say we don’t have another Walker etc etc. They are one offs. We don’t need to produce Kyle Walkers we need to produce players better or on a par with what we have.

Just my opinion though as is yours pal.

Aye its all about opinions and I respect yours but I don't agree that the answer to our current problems can be solved by throwing in Callum Semple, Tyler Smith or anyone else within the Academy. That's a different point to me point before, which was that I don't believe we have anyone that is worth throwing in to the first team. I also said that I don't believe there is a Kyle Walker, Harry Maguire, Phil Jagielka or David Brooks currently within the Academy. When you consider how good those four are and have gone onto be England regulars (not Brooks obviously) then it shows how good they really are.

I saw Harry Maguire's early games and right from the off it was obvious he was going to be a very good player. I didn't know how good but you could tell at the very least Premier League. He made his breakthrough when we were getting relegated under Adams and maybe was lucky to be able to come through at that time because we knew we were going down and Adams had nothing to lose. As you say he then played in League One but nevertheless I still believe Maguire would have come through even now but that's hard to say for sure.

All I'm saying is that I think its great that the young lads go out and get experience but I think its unlikely that half a season's experience from the Conference or League 2 is a grounding to then step up to the Championship. Most players, that's most, not all, take a gradual curve of improvement and you have to be patient with them.

The names I mentioned were the exceptions but maybe Tyler Smith as an example should be played more, but I trust Wilder's judgement here. I must stress I'm not one for watching Academy football other than odd highlights and we as fans tend to hear that we've got someone special coming through. With Brooks his name was mentioned when he was about 16 and he went on loan to Halifax about that time. Maguire was part of the team that made the FA cup Final and yet only Maguire went onto decent, George Long has become a pro and Slew had but is currently at Botson. The other lad who I recall made it, now has retired but again wasn't a regular, although injuries played their part.

 

[Redhead]

Aye its all about opinions and I respect yours but I don't agree that the answer to our current problems can be solved by throwing in Callum Semple, Tyler Smith or anyone else within the Academy. That's a different point to me point before, which was that I don't believe we have anyone that is worth throwing in to the first team. I also said that I don't believe there is a Kyle Walker, Harry Maguire, Phil Jagielka or David Brooks currently within the Academy. When you consider how good those four are and have gone onto be England regulars (not Brooks obviously) then it shows how good they really are.

I saw Harry Maguire's early games and right from the off it was obvious he was going to be a very good player. I didn't know how good but you could tell at the very least Premier League. He made his breakthrough when we were getting relegated under Adams and maybe was lucky to be able to come through at that time because we knew we were going down and Adams had nothing to lose. As you say he then played in League One but nevertheless I still believe Maguire would have come through even now but that's hard to say for sure.

All I'm saying is that I think its great that the young lads go out and get experience but I think its unlikely that half a season's experience from the Conference or League 2 is a grounding to then step up to the Championship. Most players, that's most, not all, take a gradual curve of improvement and you have to be patient with them.

The names I mentioned were the exceptions but maybe Tyler Smith as an example should be played more, but I trust Wilder's judgement here. I must stress I'm not one for watching Academy football other than odd highlights and we as fans tend to hear that we've got someone special coming through. With Brooks his name was mentioned when he was about 16 and he went on loan to Halifax about that time. Maguire was part of the team that made the FA cup Final and yet only Maguire went onto decent, George Long has become a pro and Slew had but is currently at Botson. The other lad who I recall made it, now has retired but again wasn't a regular, although injuries played their part.[/QUOT

These lads are trying to keep up their development at the same rate as the team has moved on. That is impossible so loan to lower league teams is crucial and I agree that chucking them in now would be wrong. However to right these lads off is way off the mark.

Harry Kane went out on loan to lower leagues for 3 years before his break through.

Brooks went to Halifax at 18 not 16 and only played 5 games in two months. It was too physical for him. He was not ready.

Players progress at different rates and ages.

There is a small small number of players below 20 who can walk into a Championship team.

The path we are giving Smith, Graham, Semple, Gilmour, Norrington Davis and Slater is the right path. This is the first time in years and years or ever that we have 6 or 7 19 year olds all out playing a very good level of loan football.

 

[From the pig end]

Loans are perfect in January depending on the players attitude.
Deano is using us as a platform to get experience and to help get confidence and game time in high pressure games infront of big crowds. I don't mean Man United are using us for that- he is! He comes across really ambitious and he is using his loan clubs in excacly the right way but that's because he's a clever and talented young lad that has belief in his abilities.
Getting a young player doesn't automatically mean you'll be getting a hungry one, having to leave on loan won't suit a lot of these pampered young footballers style or ego. I'm not saying we've copped for the latter in Woodburn but a certain loanee from Man United last January looked like a 35 year old who'd lost all interest and love for the game.

 

[Booker4]

I'm not writing them off Redhead, but I doubt they'll be of the caliber of Brooks, Jags, Maguire, Walker etc. There's about 100 England caps there (excluding Brooks, who's lets say will get between 50 - 75 Wales caps) I don't think I'm writing them off to say that they are unlikely to match that caliber of player.

They could be the next level down such as Matt Lowton, Michael Tonge, Nick Montgomery. My main point is that I don't think now is the time to throw in the current crop and as you rightly say if we played Tyler Smith for a 10 minute cameo, he'll be playing Academy football post January far more likely than he will be first team football.

 

[Rob86]

How about remembering last Friday night and a 38 nearly 39 year old midfielder played very well and scored a goal against us, Gareth Barry, far to old for our club, not every player should be judged only on his age, for every crock,journey man etc etc there is a Gareth Barry as well, its up to our management to decide who, some players look after themselves better than others.

Stuart McCall, wasn’t he late 30s when he played for us !

 

[Rob86]

Two wingbacks that could beat a man and cross it, without needed two other players to help them get into a crossing position would also strengthen us.

 

[BladeinExile89]

Defoe to old for me, remember when Rush came, his legs had gone and was hopeless

Its a loan so age doesnt really matter

 

[From the pig end]

Two wingbacks that could beat a man and cross it, without needed two other players to help them get into a crossing position would also strengthen us.

Two wing backs that could beat a man... hold on, one player in the team who could beat a man would be a start.
I suppose Fleck does it every couple of months but what I'd give for a Brooks type player again right now.

 

[Rob86]

Two wing backs that could beat a man... hold on, one player in the team who could beat a man would be a start.
I suppose Fleck does it every couple of months but what I'd give for a Brooks type player again right now.

Might be less than once every two months now because Norwood never gives him the ball. Duffy does lots of double step overs though before flicking it to Enda who then gives it him back.

 

[I should coco]

ts a loan so age doesnt really matter

It does if he's past it, as it's still a waste of a place on the bench and a not insubstantial wage.

It really bugs me why so many people ignore wages and only look at transfer fees. Defoe is reputedly on £75k per week:-
https://sillyseason.com/salary/afc-bournemouth-players-salaries-101261/

Let's say Bournemouth generously pay a third, so we pay £50k per week from 1/1/19 to 27/5/19 (to ensure we have him if we get in the playoffs).

That's 22 weeks at £50k per week plus National Insurance @ 13.8% = £ 1.25m (without any pension contribution they may want us to pay).

For any Championship club not on parachute payments, £1.25mm is not small beer.

Still it's only 'muneh' and we all know we need to 'get some spent'.

 

[Ihadadream]

In the youth debate I think CW right to send them out on loan to gain experience it would be different if we were not in the position we are currently at the business end of the league. The lads we have are technically as good as any first team member, what they don’t have is the knowledge that a seasoned pro has when it comes to decision making during a game, sending them away to gain that experience is benifical to everyone players and club, no doubt in pre season they will be involved and either go out on a better loan for 6/12 months or be around the 1st team, don’t forget they are 18/19/20 year olds unless you are a Phil Foden or Gibbs-White you have to wait your chance if at 22/23 your still not involved then the Championship ain’t your level....time to move on

 

[BladeinExile89]

It does if he's past it, as it's still a waste of a place on the bench and a not insubstantial wage.

It really bugs me why so many people ignore wages and only look at transfer fees. Defoe is reputedly on £75k per week:-
https://sillyseason.com/salary/afc-bournemouth-players-salaries-101261/

Let's say Bournemouth generously pay a third, so we pay £50k per week from 1/1/19 to 27/5/19 (to ensure we have him if we get in the playoffs).

That's 22 weeks at £50k per week plus National Insurance @ 13.8% = £ 1.25m (without any pension contribution they may want us to pay).

For any Championship club not on parachute payments, £1.25mm is not small beer.

Still it's only 'muneh' and we all know we need to 'get some spent'.

Yeah but we’re never gonna sign a player at his peak on loan it just doesn’t happen